Pelly24 wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:Pelly24 wrote:
You say you're presenting facts but they're devoid of context. Most of what you say is a testament to the Eastern Conference being an absolute joke before 2019. The celtics lost against LeBron who had nothing but role players. If Kyrie is there they stand a much better chance and probably win. The bucks and Giannis clearly made a leap after they upgraded their coach, and Marcus Smart was totally healthy in 2018 playoffs, Horford was a markedly less effective in 2019 verus 2018 by every measure, Kemba is being carried and has been maybe the third option in the playoffs so far and only feasted w. two all-star wings beside him and Philly missing their only playmaker and by far best perimeter defender. IT4 had a very good playoff run. The east was also devoid of any actual top players outside of Kyrie and LeBron and Giannis at the time, and for a brief time Oladipo. I'm not impressed with going through the east before 2019. They literally had nobody. Kawhi went over there and took over immediately, same thing with Jimmy once he joined a good team.
As for never deferring, that's really really an overstated narrative. He passed at the end of games all the time, but he complained that one time. See below:
I would also say that he's been one of the best clutch players in the whole league since he came in years ago. When you have someone that can get wherever they want at any time and make every shot and pass, yeah, you should probably get the ball. We saw Tatum take some awful shots toward the end of last game. He could've used a Kyrie in that instance. Maybe Kyrie halted Tatum's development a bit, in the same way Harden was held back from playing with KD and Russ. But that doesn't mean that they should've taken a big step back at that point lol. They both won MVPs. Kyrie averaged 24/7/5 on 60 TS% on near 50/40/90 and led the celtics to a 10th ranked offense without another star offensive player. He had every right to have a 30% usage rate, which btw is lower than a lot of other elite offensive players.
As for his leaving not having impact, when you leave LeBron that team will be fine. When you leave a great organization like the Celtics, who obviously have a ton of talent in a conference that's still half-devoid of superstars, they won't take a huge loss. What you're sayingc omes more down to the East being weak, Kyrie's injuries (valid criticism) and Kyrie leaving great situations. It is what it is. But using terry Rozier as evidence is wild. He's one of the best things to happoen to the celtics because he left and de-clutterized the team..
You guys are right I’m completely fabricating the fact that kyrie’s team he left don’t miss a beat without him and have been able to either improve or go on deep playoffs run/advance further without him.
Terry Rozier is irrelevant- you don’t need to educate me on him being part of the problem. He’s a small example of what I’m saying. There’s zero doubt that the Celtics are better this year right now without kyrie. It’s not even debatable. it’s fact that they went on a run without him and it’s fact last time he was the offense ran through him and he was the main piece- the team failed and disappointed.
that’s all fact. You can blame the conference or whatever you want but it’s reality. If you go out With friends and constantly get into trouble and blame the friends and get new ones and still get into trouble routinely - it’s a good chance the reason is you. Kyrie is a polarizing figure so he’s gotten to the point where anything he says he’s a lightning rod for criticism right or wrong but everything I’m saying about him is actually facts.
LOL but why are they better? Because they don't have Kyrie grimacing and saying stupid stuff from time to time and got a point guard who dribbled the ball more and scored less and passed less with worse efficiency, or is it because two young players made obvious strides in their game and Hayward was actually healthy? That's all I'm getting at. It seems like evidence points toward it being much more the former than the latter. No one made Tatum take all of those bad long-two-pointers last year. No one made his handle shaky lol.
What you're saying are facts, but the what i said is also a set of facts. The Eastern conference barely had any all-nba player/top 10 talents and that and good coaching are the only reason a young team like that could go so far. The Cavs didn't miss a beat for the same reason. One was a great organization, the other had the best player in the world with a roster perfect for his skills.
You're not fabricating, but you leaving out these details makes a huge difference. All that said Kyrie is injury prone and a bad leader and maybe not even the best teammate. He's for sure got problems, i guess i just wish people would make more complete arguments based on stats, team structures and conference setup rather than just looking at outcomes in a vacuum. The idea that switching Kyrie for Kemba was what led to all of this success is just absurd and honestly insulting to all those players lol. And just ignoring his obvious high-level play when he was with them.
Yes having kemba- a guy who is no doubt less talented than kyrie on any planet but a much better fit who empowers his teammates, trusts them completely, comes into the locker room with a smile on his face and uplifts the locker room is a huge reason why those players took said jump you mention.
In your words kemba does many of the same things kyrie does and actually dribbles more- yet he lets tatum and brown fail and defers to them at times which gives those players much more confidence and belief in themselves than they had the season before. They can play free- they don’t have to worry about the star more decorated player scowling or looking over their shoulders at all. You don’t think by your own account a star player they looked up to saying stupid things to the media and said media asking them questions about it everyday didn’t affect them? Make coming to work less fun?
That’s my entire point- this growth in each does not happen the way it has with kyrie their. Hayward missed several games also so saying he’s healthier than he was isn’t really a great judgment. Teams take after their best player and follow his lead- it’s no coincidence Rozier was a hog, Morris was a hog, etc and those guys most def played a role in the dysfunction too so it is not all on kyrie. It’s a collective fail but kyrie undermined the coach- which cut his leg out to the rest of the locker room, belittled players etc and now this year the Celtics took on the identity of kemba- their best player who empowers his teammates and uplifts them and allows them freedom to grow.
Look at the results. It is what it is. Kyrie will do wonders in Brooklyn with KD as a Batman. God bless him but also it’s no coincidence a team who was known for its culture and playing hard for this coach and giving maximum effort fired that same coach halfway through his first season there.
We can agree to disagree because the Celtics are reaping the benefits and whether you say it’s circumstantial or whatever u want to- I know we are much better know because our best player coming into the year allowed himself and his ego to be checked at the door and handed the keys to a 22 yr old.
