Why is Duncan universally consider better than Hakeem?

[Roscoe Sheed]

I think Hakeem was better at his peak- the man had some of the best post moves ever and was a great defender too.

Duncan was also great in those areas too and had better productivity later into his career, so it is definitely close.

Hakeem also had some relatively bad teams to play with for years in between the Ralph Sampson years and the Clutch City years.

[90sAllDecade]

Those saying Duncan's defense was better than Hakeem I don't really think studied Olajuwon's defense or watched him play.

There is a ton of evidence that Hakeem was better and many argue he was the GOAT defensive player since Bill Russell.

Robinson used to take the heavy lifting for Duncan on defense many times, and against Amare in a playoff series they hid Duncan and Amare shredded the team. Hakeem would guard his peers at his position in the playoffs, dominating or outplaying them. Him and Thurmond are up there for GOAT man defenders.

Duncan was an all time great, no doubt and can't take that away from him, but Hakeem was a better defensive player and overall two way player imo.

[Pg81]

Tim Duncan led a struggling team that has never won before to an unprecedented almost two decade spanning dominance sporting the highest win percentage ever in the NBA among top 10 players and got the franchise its first five titles. People love to bring up Pop but let us not get it twisted, he was a nobody before he worked with Duncan. I dare say that he in fact benefited more from Duncan than the other way around.

[DrCoach]

Its cause hes light-skinned

[LloydFree]

The bigger question is why isn't Tim Duncan universally considered better than Kobe Bryant...

[longtallbrad]

Those saying Duncan's defense was better than Hakeem I don't really think studied Olajuwon's defense or watched him play.

There is a ton of evidence that Hakeem was better and many argue he was the GOAT defensive player since Bill Russell.

Robinson used to take the heavy lifting for Duncan on defense many times, and against Amare in a playoff series they hid Duncan and Amare shredded the team. Hakeem would guard his peers at his position in the playoffs, dominating or outplaying them. Him and Thurmond are up there for GOAT man defenders.

Duncan was an all time great, no doubt and can't take that away from him, but Hakeem was a better defensive player and overall two way player imo.

During the years Duncan and Robinson played together, their teammates reportedly laughed at the popular sentiment that Duncan was the superior defender. Teammates said it was Robinson.

Not to take anything away from Duncan, because he was a great defender and amazing in his ability, as a big, to control the tempo of the game on both ends of the floor. But I wonder if current assessments of his game are a bit overrated, in part due to recency bias but especially due to level of competition. Duncan played against Howard, Nowitzki, and Garnett. Olajuwon played in the era of arguably more legendary and accomplished bigs: Robinson, Ewing, Mailman, Barkley. Both played against Shaq.

[cupcakesnake]

Those saying Duncan's defense was better than Hakeem I don't really think studied Olajuwon's defense or watched him play.

There is a ton of evidence that Hakeem was better and many argue he was the GOAT defensive player since Bill Russell.

Robinson used to take the heavy lifting for Duncan on defense many times, and against Amare in a playoff series they hid Duncan and Amare shredded the team. Hakeem would guard his peers at his position in the playoffs, dominating or outplaying them. Him and Thurmond are up there for GOAT man defenders.

Duncan was an all time great, no doubt and can't take that away from him, but Hakeem was a better defensive player and overall two way player imo.

During the years Duncan and Robinson played together, their teammates reportedly laughed at the popular sentiment that Duncan was the superior defender. Teammates said it was Robinson.

Not to take anything away from Duncan, because he was a great defender and amazing in his ability, as a big, to control the tempo of the game on both ends of the floor. But I wonder if current assessments of his game are a bit overrated, in part due to recency bias but especially due to level of competition. Duncan played against Howard, Nowitzki, and Garnett. Olajuwon played in the era of arguably more legendary and accomplished bigs: Robinson, Ewing, Mailman, Barkley. Both played against Shaq.

I'm not here to defend Duncan on defense, because I'm not of the opinion that Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem. But there are a couple of points being made that don't sit well with me.
- David Robinson and Tim Duncan played 6 seasons together; the final 6 years of David Robinson's career. Immediately after Robinson's retirement, the 2004 Spurs posted one of the best defensive ratings in the history of the NBA, then had the league's #1 ranked defense for 3 straight seasons before dropping to #2 for another 2 seasons. Robinson was one of the best defenders ever, but to try to use him against Duncan is laughable. Duncan played 19 seasons and got to prove his mettle with or without Robinson. Duncan anchored elite defenses and made all-defensive teams into his late 30s.

- Using a list of big men to explain how Duncan had it easy compared to Hakeem (or Robinson). Defense, especially for a big, is not about 1 on 1 defense. While Duncan was a marvelous 1 on 1 defender (as was Hakeem), what makes any of these guys shine is how well they anchor a defensive scheme. Duncan played in the defensively conservative 2000s and was excellent. Duncan then had to switch things up to play against faster offenses and defenses that required more overloading and switching. Duncan was excellent. If anything we have more proof that Duncan can guard all kinds of offenses than we have for Hakeem (though I have zero doubt Hakeem would have shined as a perimeter switcher. He had awesome feet.) Also the "era of arguably more legendary bigs"... I think the 2000s WC of Shaq, KG, Dirk, Webber, Rasheed, Pau stacks up just fine against Hakeem's WC of Barkley, Robinson and Malone. Hakeem won titles against Shaq and Ewing. Duncan had to get titles against Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace, and Lebron.

- The Amar'e mention. You're of course referring to 2005 when Amar'e averaged 37ppg agains the Spurs but the Suns lost 4-1. Tim Duncan was injured in that series and Pop decided to only use him on Amar'e in crunch time. Do you remember Amar'e scoring in crunch time...?

Overall, I think Hakeem is clearly a better rim protector than Duncan. He's a better athlete overall: quicker feet, more explosive, better leaper. I think Tim Duncan is a smarter defender, and I'd cite the proof here comparing them both as old guys sapped of their athleticism. Duncan was probably bigger and longer. If I was ranking them, I'd probably take Hakeem but both these guys are so good I wouldn't feel happy about making a choice. For me Hakeem, Thurmond, Duncan, Russell, Ben Wallace, KG, Robinson and a handful of guys are just totally maxed out defenders, 10 out of 10.

[bstein14]

Duncans my favourite player of all time and I put Hakeem right there with him. I think most will have Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem in the same tier career wise and you can reasonably argue for any over the other.

I will always be biased towards Duncan but have no issues with anyone saying the other 2 were better.

If you look at entire body of work over a career I think Duncan has the slight edge. If you're talking about peak prime I think I take Shaq and Hakeem for a single peak season over Duncan.

Where Duncan really was leaps and bounds ahead of Shaq was leadership and BBall IQ but Shaq could physically dominate a game/series in ways Duncan could never do.

[90sAllDecade]

Those saying Duncan's defense was better than Hakeem I don't really think studied Olajuwon's defense or watched him play.

There is a ton of evidence that Hakeem was better and many argue he was the GOAT defensive player since Bill Russell.

Robinson used to take the heavy lifting for Duncan on defense many times, and against Amare in a playoff series they hid Duncan and Amare shredded the team. Hakeem would guard his peers at his position in the playoffs, dominating or outplaying them. Him and Thurmond are up there for GOAT man defenders.

Duncan was an all time great, no doubt and can't take that away from him, but Hakeem was a better defensive player and overall two way player imo.

During the years Duncan and Robinson played together, their teammates reportedly laughed at the popular sentiment that Duncan was the superior defender. Teammates said it was Robinson.

Not to take anything away from Duncan, because he was a great defender and amazing in his ability, as a big, to control the tempo of the game on both ends of the floor. But I wonder if current assessments of his game are a bit overrated, in part due to recency bias but especially due to level of competition. Duncan played against Howard, Nowitzki, and Garnett. Olajuwon played in the era of arguably more legendary and accomplished bigs: Robinson, Ewing, Mailman, Barkley. Both played against Shaq.

I'm not here to defend Duncan on defense, because I'm not of the opinion that Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem. But there are a couple of points being made that don't sit well with me.
- David Robinson and Tim Duncan played 6 seasons together; the final 6 years of David Robinson's career. Immediately after Robinson's retirement, the 2004 Spurs posted one of the best defensive ratings in the history of the NBA, then had the league's #1 ranked defense for 3 straight seasons before dropping to #2 for another 2 seasons. Robinson was one of the best defenders ever, but to try to use him against Duncan is laughable. Duncan played 19 seasons and got to prove his mettle with or without Robinson. Duncan anchored elite defenses and made all-defensive teams into his late 30s.

- Using a list of big men to explain how Duncan had it easy compared to Hakeem (or Robinson). Defense, especially for a big, is not about 1 on 1 defense. While Duncan was a marvelous 1 on 1 defender (as was Hakeem), what makes any of these guys shine is how well they anchor a defensive scheme. Duncan played in the defensively conservative 2000s and was excellent. Duncan then had to switch things up to play against faster offenses and defenses that required more overloading and switching. Duncan was excellent. If anything we have more proof that Duncan can guard all kinds of offenses than we have for Hakeem (though I have zero doubt Hakeem would have shined as a perimeter switcher. He had awesome feet.) Also the "era of arguably more legendary bigs"... I think the 2000s WC of Shaq, KG, Dirk, Webber, Rasheed, Pau stacks up just fine against Hakeem's WC of Barkley, Robinson and Malone. Hakeem won titles against Shaq and Ewing. Duncan had to get titles against Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace, and Lebron.

- The Amar'e mention. You're of course referring to 2005 when Amar'e averaged 37ppg agains the Spurs but the Suns lost 4-1. Tim Duncan was injured in that series and Pop decided to only use him on Amar'e in crunch time. Do you remember Amar'e scoring in crunch time...?

Overall, I think Hakeem is clearly a better rim protector than Duncan. He's a better athlete overall: quicker feet, more explosive, better leaper. I think Tim Duncan is a smarter defender, and I'd cite the proof here comparing them both as old guys sapped of their athleticism. Duncan was probably bigger and longer. If I was ranking them, I'd probably take Hakeem but both these guys are so good I wouldn't feel happy about making a choice. For me Hakeem, Thurmond, Duncan, Russell, Ben Wallace, KG, Robinson and a handful of guys are just totally maxed out defenders, 10 out of 10.

Disagree about using a team based metric to judge individual players without analyzing the team support and competition that player had.

When discussing the greatest defensive players all time, six seasons and doing the heavy lifting defensively for a candidate counts imo. You may not agree, but Robinson was defending for Duncan several times in the regular season and playoff series.

Amare ripped him during the regular season as well in the three seperate games they played against the Spurs, two against Duncan he dressed for as he missed one game.

He averaged 38 points on 76% TS against Duncan's Spurs:


Box Scores of two games they played RS:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200412280SAS.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200501210PHO.html

Ducan did have injuries, but this was a trend that season in all the games they played, this is the playoff video:

Watch on YouTube

Duncan did prove himself as a great defender absolutely, he is an awesome player and deserves credit, but he did have help to make his job easier than others in a team support comparision. Duncan had Bowen, Robinson, and Pops to help orchestrate defense as a coach and take the burden off for team defense.

Basically if you praise Duncan for team defense, you are praising the team and I would analyze for the comparision. I don't rank individual players on team based accolades or metrics. Team defense is a team metric imo, so why not analyze the team support in comparison for thier careers?

Also Hakeem was better as a man defender and help defender, Hakeem also was much better with steals and had quicker hands where he is top 10 all time ever, by far the most by a center. Duncan is 164th:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/stl_career.html

I don't have a lot of time so I'll just do a comparision of team support between the two:

Team Support: Duncan vs Hakeem

Tim Duncan
Year with 1 All Star: x 12
Years with 2 All Stars: x1 (Duncan age 39 in the last year w/Kawhi and Aldridge)

Plus a GOAT level coach in Popovich for 18 years, Duncan's whole career and prime.

Hakeem:
Years with 1 All Star x 7
Years with 2 All Star x 1 (Drexler age 32 - 35 and Barkley ages 33 - 36)

Plus Rudy T for 8 years when Hakeem was ages 32 - 38.

Here are some of the offensive and defensive support Duncan had in his prime from David Robinson:

David Robinson (during Duncan's Years)
All Star x 3 (Former: MVP, Scoring Leader and DPOY)
All NBA Second Team x 1
All NBA Third Teamx 2
All Defensive Second Team x 1
Top Ten in Blocks x 4
Top Ten in Rebounds x 3
Top Ten in PER x 4
Top Five Defensive Win Shares x 4
Top Five in Defensive BPM x 4 (Close to leading league three times)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html

I'm short on time or I would add Bowen, Parker, Ginobilli etc.

Duncan had much better offensive, defensive team support and coaching than Hakeem making his job much easier on both side of the ball. When breaking down team support, competition and what they did as individual defensive players Hakeem was better.

[ZombieKilla]

He isn't.

[mixerball]

i dont get this narrative "dream slips out of peoples top 10" at all... hakeem is considered by a lot of people a goat center. even MJ would have him in his dream starting 5. ofcourse not the majority have him at the top but to suggest people are just forgeting about him is simply false.

[oldncreaky]

Those saying Duncan's defense was better than Hakeem I don't really think studied Olajuwon's defense or watched him play.

There is a ton of evidence that Hakeem was better and many argue he was the GOAT defensive player since Bill Russell.

Robinson used to take the heavy lifting for Duncan on defense many times, and against Amare in a playoff series they hid Duncan and Amare shredded the team. Hakeem would guard his peers at his position in the playoffs, dominating or outplaying them. Him and Thurmond are up there for GOAT man defenders.

Duncan was an all time great, no doubt and can't take that away from him, but Hakeem was a better defensive player and overall two way player imo.

During the years Duncan and Robinson played together, their teammates reportedly laughed at the popular sentiment that Duncan was the superior defender. Teammates said it was Robinson.

Not to take anything away from Duncan, because he was a great defender and amazing in his ability, as a big, to control the tempo of the game on both ends of the floor. But I wonder if current assessments of his game are a bit overrated, in part due to recency bias but especially due to level of competition. Duncan played against Howard, Nowitzki, and Garnett. Olajuwon played in the era of arguably more legendary and accomplished bigs: Robinson, Ewing, Mailman, Barkley. Both played against Shaq.

I'm not here to defend Duncan on defense, because I'm not of the opinion that Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem. But there are a couple of points being made that don't sit well with me.
- David Robinson and Tim Duncan played 6 seasons together; the final 6 years of David Robinson's career. Immediately after Robinson's retirement, the 2004 Spurs posted one of the best defensive ratings in the history of the NBA, then had the league's #1 ranked defense for 3 straight seasons before dropping to #2 for another 2 seasons. Robinson was one of the best defenders ever, but to try to use him against Duncan is laughable. Duncan played 19 seasons and got to prove his mettle with or without Robinson. Duncan anchored elite defenses and made all-defensive teams into his late 30s.

- Using a list of big men to explain how Duncan had it easy compared to Hakeem (or Robinson). Defense, especially for a big, is not about 1 on 1 defense. While Duncan was a marvelous 1 on 1 defender (as was Hakeem), what makes any of these guys shine is how well they anchor a defensive scheme. Duncan played in the defensively conservative 2000s and was excellent. Duncan then had to switch things up to play against faster offenses and defenses that required more overloading and switching. Duncan was excellent. If anything we have more proof that Duncan can guard all kinds of offenses than we have for Hakeem (though I have zero doubt Hakeem would have shined as a perimeter switcher. He had awesome feet.) Also the "era of arguably more legendary bigs"... I think the 2000s WC of Shaq, KG, Dirk, Webber, Rasheed, Pau stacks up just fine against Hakeem's WC of Barkley, Robinson and Malone. Hakeem won titles against Shaq and Ewing. Duncan had to get titles against Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace, and Lebron.

- The Amar'e mention. You're of course referring to 2005 when Amar'e averaged 37ppg agains the Spurs but the Suns lost 4-1. Tim Duncan was injured in that series and Pop decided to only use him on Amar'e in crunch time. Do you remember Amar'e scoring in crunch time...?

Overall, I think Hakeem is clearly a better rim protector than Duncan. He's a better athlete overall: quicker feet, more explosive, better leaper. I think Tim Duncan is a smarter defender, and I'd cite the proof here comparing them both as old guys sapped of their athleticism. Duncan was probably bigger and longer. If I was ranking them, I'd probably take Hakeem but both these guys are so good I wouldn't feel happy about making a choice. For me Hakeem, Thurmond, Duncan, Russell, Ben Wallace, KG, Robinson and a handful of guys are just totally maxed out defenders, 10 out of 10.

I agree with your all of your list of great defenders, and I'm especially glad you remembered Thurman. I would add Moncrief, Rodman and Payton as non-centers who maxed out on defence during their peaks.

[Heej]

He straight up just had a higher IQ than Hakeem

[DoctorX]

Those saying Duncan's defense was better than Hakeem I don't really think studied Olajuwon's defense or watched him play.

There is a ton of evidence that Hakeem was better and many argue he was the GOAT defensive player since Bill Russell.

Robinson used to take the heavy lifting for Duncan on defense many times, and against Amare in a playoff series they hid Duncan and Amare shredded the team. Hakeem would guard his peers at his position in the playoffs, dominating or outplaying them. Him and Thurmond are up there for GOAT man defenders.

Duncan was an all time great, no doubt and can't take that away from him, but Hakeem was a better defensive player and overall two way player imo.

During the years Duncan and Robinson played together, their teammates reportedly laughed at the popular sentiment that Duncan was the superior defender. Teammates said it was Robinson.

Not to take anything away from Duncan, because he was a great defender and amazing in his ability, as a big, to control the tempo of the game on both ends of the floor. But I wonder if current assessments of his game are a bit overrated, in part due to recency bias but especially due to level of competition. Duncan played against Howard, Nowitzki, and Garnett. Olajuwon played in the era of arguably more legendary and accomplished bigs: Robinson, Ewing, Mailman, Barkley. Both played against Shaq.

1. Duncan had 2 bad ankles during that series. He had serious ankle injury before the playoffs and then had another serious ankle injury against the Sonics in the close out game. You failed to mention that in there.

2.I have been following the Spurs for 25 years and I don't recall that ever happening. To me you are just making up stuff to sell your argument.

3. Duncan actually was the better defender when it came to guarding Shaq during the early '00s. He guarded Shaq lot in the '02 playoffs since Robinson was injured for most of that series. I would say Duncan did a better job than even prime Hakeem did when it came to guarding Shaq.

[pillwenney]

Yeah I mean they're obviously pretty close. What separates Duncan is the consistent success--and notably, what he had to do with that. His teams always, always had elite cultures, and he deserves a lot of credit for that. The counter-argument is concerning where the credit for that is his, and where it's Pop's.

[Prez]

It’s not universal at all, maybe in terms of career/resume/accolades Duncan is ranked higher, but in terms of peak level of play it’s often debated

[DoctorX]

Yeah I mean they're obviously pretty close. What separates Duncan is the consistent success--and notably, what he had to do with that. His teams always, always had elite cultures, and he deserves a lot of credit for that. The counter-argument is concerning where the credit for that is his, and where it's Pop's.

I always felt coaches are overrated in the NBA and don't carry the same value they do in other leagues. Phil Jackson, Riley,Pop all haven't been able to do jack **** when they don't have talented players. The Spurs have fallen apart since losing Kawhi. They went from a championship contender, to a first round playoff team, and to now a lottery team within 2 years. To me it's always ludicrous when people try to discredit Duncan's greatness by screaming he had Pop. Great players make great coaches and it's never the other way around.

[pillwenney]

Yeah I mean they're obviously pretty close. What separates Duncan is the consistent success--and notably, what he had to do with that. His teams always, always had elite cultures, and he deserves a lot of credit for that. The counter-argument is concerning where the credit for that is his, and where it's Pop's.

I always felt coaches are overrated in the NBA and don't carry the same value they do in other leagues. Phil Jackson, Riley,Pop all haven't been able to do jack **** when they don't have talented players. The Spurs have fallen apart since losing Kawhi. They went from a championship contender, to a first round playoff team, and to now a lottery team within 2 years. To me it's always ludicrous when people try to discredit Duncan's greatness by screaming he had Pop. Great players make great coaches and it's never the other way around.

One could easily argue that they should have gone immediately to being out of the playoffs, and it's a testament to Pop that they've remained competitive in the post-Kawhi years, given the state of the roster.

That's not even really what I'm arguing about though. Clearly the Spurs have had good talent for the last couple of decades. But they've also been sustained by arguably the best culture in pro sports. The success doesn't happen without the talent, of course. But it doesn't happen to the same degree, and it's probably not nearly as consistent without that elite culture.

The credit for this often is given to Duncan, which I think is mostly fair. It's rare for a superstar talent like him to allow himself to be coached hard by a guy like Pop, and that example has trickled down to decades of amazing success.

But it's also true that that impact wouldn't be anywhere near as strong or successful if it was **** Randy Wittman coaching Duncan in 97. So I'm just saying, the line of where the credit goes for the culture is blurry.

[Djoker]

At the end of the day achievements matter. I don't consider Duncan in his prime to be as good of a basketball player as Hakeem Olajuwon but he has a 5-2 edge in titles. It might be unfair but that's the reality when talking about the greatest players ever,

[bmurph128]

People think Duncan was better than Hakeem??

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