Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss

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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#61 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:42 am

Metallikid wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Metallikid wrote:Are you implying that Dirk is the clutchest player ever?



Implying? I'm pronouncing it. :wink:


More seriously I think his and Paul's clutch numbers speak that they are the best of the best and considering that Dirk did it much more often in the playoffs, I think yeah Dirk probably is the clutchiest of clutchers.

I'm also a homer and you should definitely factor that in at least a bit. I think I'm being objective, but its Dirk so I'm probably not.


Chris or George?


I think Paul Simon
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#62 » by SMTBSI » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:21 am

SMTBSI wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
ropjhk wrote:I wonder how the Lakers performed over the same stretch.

Well sounds like .500 or worse considering Boston was the 2nd most effective team and they were a shade over .500.

Not necessarily. The tweet says Dallas and Boston had the 1st and 2nd most wins, not the 1st and 2nd best winning percentage.

If 96-91, or .513, was good enough for the 2nd best percentage, it would imply almost everyone was at or below .500 in close games. Obviously that's not possible. Dallas alone didn't soak up enough close wins to render the entire league at or below .500 for 6 straight seasons.

Lakers, or any other team, could have been something like 60-40 and not contradict that tweet.


Read on Twitter

So, the more I think about this, there's some interesting implications here. First of all, this tweet heavily implies that Dallas was near the top not only in close games win percentage, but also in total number of close games played in that timeframe. Per this tweet, Boston played 187, and Dallas 164. The absolute most any team that went over .500 in close games could have played without contradicting the tweet, is 189, going 95-94.

Second of all, it's worth noting that Dallas, by going 110-54, won close games at a .671 clip, in a timeframe where they went 340-152, or .691, overall. So, they actually won close games less frequently than overall, though not significantly so.
Boston, by going 96-91, won close games at a .513 clip, in a timeframe where they went 291-202, or .591, overall. So, also performing worse in close games than otherwise, and a bit more significantly so.

But, there's no in-principle reason to believe that any random team's close-game win percentage would be much different than their overall win percentage. It wouldn't be surprising to hear that a .300 team won close games at about a .300 clip, or that a .700 team won close games at about a .700 clip. If you're .300, you're .300 for a reason, and same when you're .700.

Now, some teams will be a bit more or less clutch, but it's probably going to be a nice normal distribution, with (I'm guessing) not many teams off by more than .100 or so. And, the clutch/unclutch teams don't necessary have to map to the good/bad teams - there will certainly be bad teams that have a couple clutch shot-makers surrounded by a bad supporting cast, who are therefore able to eek out close games at a better rate than their overall record, and there will be good teams, like we see here with Boston, that win close games at a worse rate than their overall record, for whatever reason. And then there will be teams like Dallas, who's close-game win percentage is almost exactly the same as their overall win percentage.

So, if you took a look at other teams with solidly winning records over that timeframe, at least some of them likely also have solidly winning records in close games. But, all of those teams must have played no more than 189 close (as defined here) games, and won no more than 95 of them. So, for example, if there's another team out there that played .650 ball, and also exactly met expectations and played .650 ball in close games, they can, in order to not contradict this tweet, have played no more than 146 close games in that timeframe, going 95-51.

So the picture that's kind of being painted here, to me, is one of a team that played basically .700 ball over a 6 year time frame, but found themselves in tight games more often than almost any other team in the league. I'm not sure exactly what to make of that.

When I first started writing this post, my working hypothesis was "Team was probably not quite as good as its record indicated, but was clutch as heck." But that's not really supported, since Dallas' record in close games was basically exactly the same as their overall record - they weren't picking up extra wins every season just by being clutch in close games. This must be a playstyle thing. Something about their brand of basketball was causing a lot of games to come down to the wire. Were they a notably low-scoring, low-pace team during that timeframe?
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#63 » by Laimbeer » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:35 pm

The '05-11 Mavs did not just lead the NBA in close game wins, but they lapped it. 110-54 record in those games. Nobody else came close. Boston was 96-91 and had 2nd most wins.


That's about the same percentage as their overall record. Also curious in how other teams' "close game" win percentages compare to their overall record.

From 2005-06 to 2010-11, Dirk shot 47.0% from the field & 39.1% from deep on 115 shots to tie or take the lead inside the final 2 minutes of the 4th or OT.


Those are about his career averages -which include off-prime seasons.

During those six seasons, Dallas was 181-83 in clutch games, a 68.6 win percentage.


What the heck is a "clutch game"? Whatever it is, it's about half of all the games they played in that time frame. And again, this percentage is about the same as their overall. How do other teams' "clutch game" win percentages compare to their overall record?
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#64 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:38 pm

What I think people don't have the perception about, now, is how FAST and mobile young Dirk was.
In his 30s he was much more deliberate and he fully weaponized his mid post game, but when pared with Nash he was really looking like a winger.

Moreover, I think his early struggles are blown out of proportion.
Sure, his first year was not easy but he was super promising, I really don't remember many people calling him a bust on Usenet. And by his second year he was clearly a future All Star.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#65 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:52 pm

Laimbeer wrote:What the heck is a "clutch game"? Whatever it is, it's about half of all the games they played in that time frame. And again, this percentage is about the same as their overall. How do other teams' "close game" win percentages compare to their overall record?

The thing that basketball is a sport with big scoring numbers, a basket is not worth as much as a goal in football, for instance.
For several reasons, from energy saving to diversification, teams are not actually playing to maximize the outcome of EACH possession, 100%. This is even more true in the RS, when for many minutes teams are cruising and games are rarely prepared in the best level.
But there are some moments, even in the RS, when a few plays do actually make a difference between a win and a loss and teams really bring their A game. Max intensity on defense, best guys on the floor, best possible execution on offense. These are the moments when you can see how difficult to stop a guy really is, at his best.
People who can perform in such situation have a clutch game.
For an a scorer, that means being able to take and make shots that defenses are not able to take away from you. And make the right decision when the opposite team must totally overplay them to stop you.
That's the difference between Olajuwon's and Robinson's offensive game, for instance.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#66 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:06 pm

some of you are way overthinking this. It was meant mostly as an excuse to remember the great Dirk.

But I do find myself amused that stat expert Kevin Pelton found this extremely noteworthy and significant but RealGM poster Laimbeer has concluded it meaningless. :lol:
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#67 » by Torgeir Bryn » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:37 pm

Found these stats in a 2011 article from Dave McMenamin about Dirk and Kobe:

As much as Bryant is known for being the second coming of Mr. Clutch in Lakerland, Nowitzki's crunch-time numbers outpace Bryant's in several categories. This season Nowitzki is shooting 51.2 percent in the fourth quarter of games compared to 40.2 percent for Bryant, according to ESPN Stats & Information. Nowitzki has also been more accurate than Bryant in the last two minutes of games this season with the score within four points (44.4 percent compared to 38.6 percent) and is slightly better in the last 24 seconds of games this season when the margin is within four (going 4-for-8 in those instances compared to Bryant's 3-for-8).

And being clutch is nothing new for Nowitzki. Over the past five seasons Nowitzki has the best shooting percentage in the NBA, 45.2 percent, in the final 24 seconds of a game when the game is within three points (or one possession) while Bryant is 12th in the league in the past five seasons under those circumstances at 34.4 percent.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#68 » by Danny1616 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm

Ironically, until Dirk won the title in 2011, he was labelled as the guy who couldn't show up in the big games. This was despite the fact that he never played next to a true superstar from 2004-2015.

Dirks best teammates were Nash (1998-2004), Michael Finley (1998-2005), Josh Howard, and then Kidd and Marion when they were almost at the end of their careers. None of those guys (apart from Nash maybe) were superstar level players.

Imagine Dirk did play next to a Shaq, or a Duncan, or a Kobe, or a Wade or a Lebron or someone like that. I guarantee he would have had 3-4 titles under his belt.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#69 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:48 pm

Danny1616 wrote:Ironically, until Dirk won the title in 2011, he was labelled as the guy who couldn't show up in the big games. This was despite the fact that he never played next to a true superstar from 2004-2015.

Dirks best teammates were Nash (1998-2004), Michael Finley (1998-2005), Josh Howard, and then Kidd and Marion when they were almost at the end of their careers. None of those guys (apart from Nash maybe) were superstar level players.

Imagine Dirk did play next to a Shaq, or a Duncan, or a Kobe, or a Wade or a Lebron or someone like that. I guarantee he would have had 3-4 titles under his belt.


The expectation is the same for all stars who lead their team to 60+ wins and year in and year out contention, but the real story of that finals IMO was Dallas's defensive game plan .vs. the Heat. Keeping Miami's offense out of sync became that extra superstar for the Mavs.

The Spurs went and beat a better constructed Heat team again with just their single superstar by taking advantage of the fact that the ball can be passed faster than defenders can move.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#70 » by Mavrelous » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:00 pm

Finely was dead weight, he was amnestied IIRC. One of the most interesting aspects of Dirk's career is how different he was when he played with Nash to post 2005.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#71 » by The_Hater » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:06 pm

It’s funny but I remember the Dirk narrative before that era being that he choked in the clutch. Especially in the playoffs.

Goes to show you that narratives can often be dead wrong and even if the data supports it, sometimes the sample size is just too small.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#72 » by Mr B » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:13 pm

Danny1616 wrote:Ironically, until Dirk won the title in 2011, he was labelled as the guy who couldn't show up in the big games. This was despite the fact that he never played next to a true superstar from 2004-2015.

Dirks best teammates were Nash (1998-2004), Michael Finley (1998-2005), Josh Howard, and then Kidd and Marion when they were almost at the end of their careers. None of those guys (apart from Nash maybe) were superstar level players.

Imagine Dirk did play next to a Shaq, or a Duncan, or a Kobe, or a Wade or a Lebron or someone like that. I guarantee he would have had 3-4 titles under his belt.

You forgot he also played with Jason Terry. Your point is still valid though. When they won the title in 2011 Dirk was the only All Star on that team and he wasn’t even selected as a starter that year. That’s what made that 2011 title even better. A teal loaded with all stars and future HOF’s got handled by a team with only 1 second team all star.


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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#73 » by danvato » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:18 pm

this is a great thread and i don't mean to hijack. just curious if people think once KD loses his athleticism he can be as productive as Dirk.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#74 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:27 pm

danvato wrote:this is a great thread and i don't mean to hijack. just curious if people think once KD loses his athleticism he can be as productive as Dirk.


post achilles he has shown zero drop off as an offensive force. He is clearly Dirk 2.0.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#75 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:36 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:Ironically, until Dirk won the title in 2011, he was labelled as the guy who couldn't show up in the big games. This was despite the fact that he never played next to a true superstar from 2004-2015.

Dirks best teammates were Nash (1998-2004), Michael Finley (1998-2005), Josh Howard, and then Kidd and Marion when they were almost at the end of their careers. None of those guys (apart from Nash maybe) were superstar level players.

Imagine Dirk did play next to a Shaq, or a Duncan, or a Kobe, or a Wade or a Lebron or someone like that. I guarantee he would have had 3-4 titles under his belt.


The expectation is the same for all stars who lead their team to 60+ wins and year in and year out contention, but the real story of that finals IMO was Dallas's defensive game plan .vs. the Heat. Keeping Miami's offense out of sync became that extra superstar for the Mavs.

The Spurs went and beat a better constructed Heat team again with just their single superstar by taking advantage of the fact that the ball can be passed faster than defenders can move.

The Spurs had no superstar, period.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#76 » by Pg81 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:01 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
danvato wrote:this is a great thread and i don't mean to hijack. just curious if people think once KD loses his athleticism he can be as productive as Dirk.


post achilles he has shown zero drop off as an offensive force. He is clearly Dirk 2.0.


2.0? I`d take Dirk any day over KD easily.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#77 » by trickshot » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:07 pm

The_Hater wrote:It’s funny but I remember the Dirk narrative before that era being that he choked in the clutch. Especially in the playoffs.

Goes to show you that narratives can often be dead wrong and even if the data supports it, sometimes the sample size is just too small.

He was called "choke Nowitzki". He had a playoff failing or two for whatever reason. Aside MJ every great seems to have black mark moments
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#78 » by The_Hater » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:10 pm

Pg81 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
danvato wrote:this is a great thread and i don't mean to hijack. just curious if people think once KD loses his athleticism he can be as productive as Dirk.


post achilles he has shown zero drop off as an offensive force. He is clearly Dirk 2.0.


2.0? I`d take Dirk any day over KD easily.


I think that would be a minority opinion. KD is a far more well rounded and versatile player than Dirk was while also being a great shooter.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#79 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:16 pm

The_Hater wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
post achilles he has shown zero drop off as an offensive force. He is clearly Dirk 2.0.


2.0? I`d take Dirk any day over KD easily.


I think that would be a minority opinion. KD is a far more well rounded and versatile player than Dirk was while also being a great shooter.


Durant is without any question a superior scorer to Dirk. There is no argument to the contrary. Dirk is probably still the superior overall player because of how he was able to completely warp defenses like no player before or since*. Durant for all his individual greatness doesn't provide nearly the same lift to his teammates as Dirk did.

*I'm talking about how he did it, not necessarily degree. Steph's warping effect is also enormous--just done totally different. But Dirk in a PNR or in a high post elbow was absolutely unguardable and teams had no answers to either.
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Re: Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss 

Post#80 » by Raps in 4 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:18 pm

Dirk's loyalty to the Mavs will hold back his legacy. Had he demanded a trade to LA or Miami to play with Kobe/Wade (or any other team with a superstar at the time), he would be regarded as at least a tier higher in the ATG rankings today.

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