My brand new top 50 ranking after 2021 Finals results. What do you think?

[Magic Is Magic]

Here are the categories I used and the scored weighting for each category

Category --------> Wtd
MVPS ------------> 6.60
All NBA 1st -----> 1.35
All Def 1st -----> 0.75
All NBA 2nd -----> 0.95
All Def 2nd -----> 0.40
FMVP -----------> 6.60
RS WS/48 > 0.25 ---> 0.50
RS BPM > 7 ------> 0.50
PO WS/48 > 0.25 ---> 0.85
PO BPM > 7 ------> 0.85
PO VORP > 2.5 ----> 3.50
TOP 3 in MVP -----> 2.40
Top 5 in MVP -----> 0.65
RS PER > 25.0 -----> 0.50
PO PER > 25.0 -----> 0.85
RS Top 3 Reb -----> 0.75
RS Top 5 Reb -----> 0.25
RS Top 3 Ast -----> 0.75
RS Top 5 Ast -----> 0.25
RS Top 3 Pts -----> 0.90
RS Top 5 Pts -----> 0.30
Ring champ -----> 2.40
Playoff WS ------> 0.50
All-Star Selections ---> 0.40
Reg Season WS ------> 0.04

I'll post my updated top 50 results after I made this slight tweak later tonight. I gave a little more weight to Rings, moving Chris Paul down some and Curry up some.

[Magic Is Magic]

After listening to feedback and adding a few more elements into the formula there are some slightly different results in the middle of the list. The top ten is mostly still the same (Russell and Duncan swapped places) but the top twelve is mostly set now and these players are usually in everyone's top twelve (maybe not Durant but he has the resume to go up against anyone else vying for top twelve status). The changes I made added slightly more value to winning an MVP, FMVP, Scoring top 3, Winning a Scoring Title, and MVP Win shares. These extra categories and score bumps added a nice smoothing effect that makes the results even harder to argue against. Here is the Magic formula it produces with the updates

1. LeBron James 96.4
2. Michael Jordan 95.4
3. Kareem A-Jabbar 80.9
4. Bill Russell 65.1
5. Tim Duncan 63.0
6. Wilt Chamberlain 61.0
7. Magic Johnson 55.2
8. Shaquille O'Neal 51.4
9. Kobe Bryant 48.3
10. Larry Bird 45.3
------------------------------------
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 38.2
12. Kevin Durant 36.9
13. Jerry West 36.0
14. Karl Malone 36.0
15. Dirk Nowitzki 33.0
16. David Robinson 31.9
17. Oscar Robertson 31.5
18. Moses Malone 31.5
19. Bob Cousy 30.5
20. George Mikan 30.5
21. Julius Erving 30.4
22. Chris Paul 29.9
23. Bob Pettit 29.9
24. Kevin Garnett 28.8
25. Kawhi Leonard 27.0
----------------------------------
26. James Harden 25.6
27. John Havlicek 24.8
28. Stephen Curry 24.7
29. Charles Barkley 24.1
30. Jason Kidd 23.7
31. Giannis Antetokuonmpo 23.2
32. Dwyane Wade 22.3
33. John Stockton 21.6
34. Dolph Schayes 20.7
35. Elgin Baylor 20.6
36. Scottie Pippen 19.9
37. Willis Reed 19.5
38. Steve Nash 19.4
39. Russell Westbrook 18.1
40. Elvin Hayes 15.5
41. Walt Frazier 15.2
42. Rick Barry 14.9
43. George Gervin 14.8
44. Anthony Davis 14.4
45. Allen Iverson 14.0
46. Gary Payton 13.5
47. Bill Walton 13.3
48. Isiah Thomas 12.8
49. Patrick Ewing 11.2
50. Paul Pierce 11.0
--------------------------------
Players Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Artis Gilmore, Chauncy Billups, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller were on the cusp of top 50 but did not make the point cut off. Paul Pierce's FMVP is what put him over most of these other players. Nothing is perfect and the formula is a work in progress as all things should be, after all times and things change but this is a very solid list and formula that I am proud to stand by. Also as some have pointed out if you compare this list to the Real GM voter panel list it is scarily similar and not terribly far off in many cases.

[AussieRules]

Can I see the formula?

I can try to tweak it a bit but the 25 categories are weighted in different ways and the formula would be a lot unpack right now. My formula was focused on giving balanced value to rings, peak play, and longevity and I feel this formula did a pretty good job. Which players seem too high or too low?

It's definitely not a bad list but some feel off to me. Paul over Curry doesn't make a whole lot of sense. That seems to be putting too much value on longevity and not peak and impact. Harden over Curry is also an outlier in that formula of yours I think.

I’ll give you Harden over Curry, but tbh I think Harden has done a great job carrying and leading his team than Curry ever has. Curry doesn’t seem to be a winning player without his backcourt mate who is also one of the greatest shooters of all time with most people ranking him #2 giving Curry a slight edge.

As far as CP3 goes, he is head and shoulders above Steph as a point guard and leader, only thing Curry has over him is shooting and being on better teams.

The only problem with this list is MJ is a bit on the low side, he should be higher.

[AussieRules]

After listening to feedback and adding a few more elements into the formula there are some slightly different results in the middle of the list. The top ten is mostly still the same (Russell and Duncan swapped places) but the top twelve is mostly set now and these players are usually in everyone's top twelve (maybe not Durant but he has the resume to go up against anyone else vying for top twelve status). The changes I made added slightly more value to winning an MVP, FMVP, Scoring top 3, Winning a Scoring Title, and MVP Win shares. These extra categories and score bumps added a nice smoothing effect that makes the results even harder to argue against. Here is the Magic formula it produces with the updates

1. LeBron James 96.4
2. Michael Jordan 95.4
3. Kareem A-Jabbar 80.9
4. Bill Russell 65.1
5. Tim Duncan 63.0
6. Wilt Chamberlain 61.0
7. Magic Johnson 55.2
8. Shaquille O'Neal 51.4
9. Kobe Bryant 48.3
10. Larry Bird 45.3
------------------------------------
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 38.2
12. Kevin Durant 36.9
13. Jerry West 36.0
14. Karl Malone 36.0
15. Dirk Nowitzki 33.0
16. David Robinson 31.9
17. Oscar Robertson 31.5
18. Moses Malone 31.5
19. Bob Cousy 30.5
20. George Mikan 30.5
21. Julius Erving 30.4
22. Chris Paul 29.9
23. Bob Pettit 29.9
24. Kevin Garnett 28.8
25. Kawhi Leonard 27.0
----------------------------------
26. James Harden 25.6
27. John Havlicek 24.8
28. Stephen Curry 24.7
29. Charles Barkley 24.1
30. Jason Kidd 23.7
31. Giannis Antetokuonmpo 23.2
32. Dwyane Wade 22.3
33. John Stockton 21.6
34. Dolph Schayes 20.7
35. Elgin Baylor 20.6
36. Scottie Pippen 19.9
37. Willis Reed 19.5
38. Steve Nash 19.4
39. Russell Westbrook 18.1
40. Elvin Hayes 15.5
41. Walt Frazier 15.2
42. Rick Barry 14.9
43. George Gervin 14.8
44. Anthony Davis 14.4
45. Allen Iverson 14.0
46. Gary Payton 13.5
47. Bill Walton 13.3
48. Isiah Thomas 12.8
49. Patrick Ewing 11.2
50. Paul Pierce 11.0
--------------------------------
Players Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Artis Gilmore, Chauncy Billups, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller were on the cusp of top 50 but did not make the point cut off. Paul Pierce's FMVP is what put him over most of these other players. Nothing is perfect and the formula is a work in progress as all things should be, after all times and things change but this is a very solid list and formula that I am proud to stand by. Also as some have pointed out if you compare this list to the Real GM voter panel list it is scarily similar and not terribly far off in many cases.

You should probably add more value to DPOY award as well to even things out a lil bit

[dribble1614]

no disrespect, but lebron has no argument for being the goat.

Top 50

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4 . LeBron James
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Larry Bird
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Kevin Durant
13. Stephen Curry
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Dirk Nowitzki
17. Kevin Garnett
18. Giannis Antetokounmpo
19. Oscar Robertson
20. Moses Malone
21. Isiah Thomas
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Kawhi Leonard
24. Karl Malone
25. Charles Barkley
26. Scottie Pippen
27. David Robinson
28. John Havlicek
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Chris Paul

[WarriorGM]

As far as CP3 goes, he is head and shoulders above Steph as a point guard and leader, only thing Curry has over him is shooting and being on better teams.

CP3 is a better point guard and leader??? Based on what???

Curry is probably the worst player to make an argument about him being on a good team because he isn't just on good teams, he is on some of the greatest teams of all-time. Either the teams are all-time great without him or he is what makes the teams all-time great. What makes this argument even more ridiculous is that no theoretical exercise is necessary. We've seen the teams he's been on without him. They looked very mortal. It is absolutely mind-boggling how people refuse to see what's right in front of them. The power of self-induced delusion is indeed very strong.

[art_tatum]

As far as CP3 goes, he is head and shoulders above Steph as a point guard and leader, only thing Curry has over him is shooting and being on better teams.

CP3 is a better point guard and leader??? Based on what???

Curry is probably the worst player to make an argument about him being on a good team because he isn't just on good teams, he is on some of the greatest teams of all-time. Either the teams are all-time great without him or he is what makes the teams all-time great. What makes this argument even more ridiculous is that no theoretical exercise is necessary. We've seen the teams he's been on without him. They looked very mortal. It is absolutely mind-boggling how people refuse to see what's right in front of them. The power of self-induced delusion is indeed very strong.

I guess they were just listening to espn and their lazy takes. Clippers broke apart bc the others didnt want to play with cp3 anymore. Griffin, Reddick, jordan all said there was no joy or team unity bc of how cp3 dictated. Long behold he goes to houston and the same happens, harden and cp3 have a rift and cp3 is traded.
He can bully young players /teams who dont have clout but its not the best way to do things.
Theyll never win a chip that way even if they raise their floor.

[Def Leppard]

Your top 50 is the only list I consider credible

Sent from my SM-G981W using RealGM mobile app

[art_tatum]

A little too much emphasis on all nba teams which are also very media driven.

Fmvp should be half of a MVP, not at all the same value. Say durants Fmvp in a 4 game sweep should not = the MVP he had. Fmvp are just who did the best in 4-7 games. Vs a whole season. Half value bc its on a bigger stage.

Too much emphasis on raw numbers for ranking in 2021 (top 3 in scoring/assista) those should be weighed less than the advanced numbers, and might as well add a steals catagory.

I dont see how theres a huge drop off between jordan/lebron and KAJ since i assume lebron is only ahead of jordan due to longevity, but KAJ has both that and more accolades

[JN61]

I feel all active players but Westbrook and Curry (and maybe Harden) are way too high. Those two around where you would reasonably have them. Curry maybe 2-3 spots better. Way too low amount of emphasis on the longeativity it seems.

[Magic Is Magic]

After listening to feedback and adding a few more elements into the formula there are some slightly different results in the middle of the list. The top ten is mostly still the same (Russell and Duncan swapped places) but the top twelve is mostly set now and these players are usually in everyone's top twelve (maybe not Durant but he has the resume to go up against anyone else vying for top twelve status). The changes I made added slightly more value to winning an MVP, FMVP, Scoring top 3, Winning a Scoring Title, and MVP Win shares. These extra categories and score bumps added a nice smoothing effect that makes the results even harder to argue against. Here is the Magic formula it produces with the updates

1. LeBron James 96.4
2. Michael Jordan 95.4
3. Kareem A-Jabbar 80.9
4. Bill Russell 65.1
5. Tim Duncan 63.0
6. Wilt Chamberlain 61.0
7. Magic Johnson 55.2
8. Shaquille O'Neal 51.4
9. Kobe Bryant 48.3
10. Larry Bird 45.3
------------------------------------
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 38.2
12. Kevin Durant 36.9
13. Jerry West 36.0
14. Karl Malone 36.0
15. Dirk Nowitzki 33.0
16. David Robinson 31.9
17. Oscar Robertson 31.5
18. Moses Malone 31.5
19. Bob Cousy 30.5
20. George Mikan 30.5
21. Julius Erving 30.4
22. Chris Paul 29.9
23. Bob Pettit 29.9
24. Kevin Garnett 28.8
25. Kawhi Leonard 27.0
----------------------------------
26. James Harden 25.6
27. John Havlicek 24.8
28. Stephen Curry 24.7
29. Charles Barkley 24.1
30. Jason Kidd 23.7
31. Giannis Antetokuonmpo 23.2
32. Dwyane Wade 22.3
33. John Stockton 21.6
34. Dolph Schayes 20.7
35. Elgin Baylor 20.6
36. Scottie Pippen 19.9
37. Willis Reed 19.5
38. Steve Nash 19.4
39. Russell Westbrook 18.1
40. Elvin Hayes 15.5
41. Walt Frazier 15.2
42. Rick Barry 14.9
43. George Gervin 14.8
44. Anthony Davis 14.4
45. Allen Iverson 14.0
46. Gary Payton 13.5
47. Bill Walton 13.3
48. Isiah Thomas 12.8
49. Patrick Ewing 11.2
50. Paul Pierce 11.0
--------------------------------
Players Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Artis Gilmore, Chauncy Billups, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller were on the cusp of top 50 but did not make the point cut off. Paul Pierce's FMVP is what put him over most of these other players. Nothing is perfect and the formula is a work in progress as all things should be, after all times and things change but this is a very solid list and formula that I am proud to stand by. Also as some have pointed out if you compare this list to the Real GM voter panel list it is scarily similar and not terribly far off in many cases.

You should probably add more value to DPOY award as well to even things out a lil bit

My issue with adding DPOY as a category is that it was only started in 1984 and many of these players were in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. which is a big chunk of the NBA history. If I were to add it the only thing it would probably change is slide Dwight Howard into the top 50 cusp and move Kawhi even higher (which I'm not sure higher than 25 makes sense for him anyway). I did have a rhyme or reason for small things like that but mainly the award was stared in 1984 which is unfair to the throwback legends of our game.

[Magic Is Magic]

I feel all active players but Westbrook and Curry (and maybe Harden) are way too high. Those two around where you would reasonably have them. Curry maybe 2-3 spots better. Way too low amount of emphasis on the longeativity it seems.

The problem is if you put too much emphasis on longevity then you have a player like Karl Malone knocking on top ten status which doesn't feel or look right and probably having LeBron being the clear far and away GOAT over Jordan which also doesn't feel or look right. Part of what this formula showed me is if Jordan did not retire in 94 and 99 he would be the GOAT with a few more solid seasons but what hurts him is longevity really so I had to be fair in not penalizing lack of longevity too much or else Malone, LeBron, Kobe probably all increase even more than where they are now. I appreciate the comments JN61.

[Magic Is Magic]

A little too much emphasis on all nba teams which are also very media driven.

Fmvp should be half of a MVP, not at all the same value. Say durants Fmvp in a 4 game sweep should not = the MVP he had. Fmvp are just who did the best in 4-7 games. Vs a whole season. Half value bc its on a bigger stage.
I feel that the MVP is the most valuable award in the game above finals MVP as well but I was not sure if people would feel I am not giving enough emphasis on winning a ring with Finals MVP. I agree that MVP should be worth slightly more than a FMVP in the end. An MVP is awarded to the best player on 30 teams after 82 games but the FMVP is awarded to the best player on 2 teams after 4 to 7 games. I'm torn between slightly reducing Finals MVP value at this point but I have thought about it.



Too much emphasis on raw numbers for ranking in 2021 (top 3 in scoring/assists) those should be weighed less than the advanced numbers, and might as well add a steals catagory.
I'm not so sure about that. Being a premium level player, such as the top 3 best scorer against your contemporaries is pretty impressive. Same with being top 3 against your contemporaries in assists/rebounding



I dont see how theres a huge drop off between jordan/lebron and KAJ since i assume lebron is only ahead of jordan due to longevity, but KAJ has both that and more accolades
There are a few reasons why there is such a big gap between MJ/LBJ and Kareem with the first being Finals MVPs. Kareem only has 2, while LBJ has 2x more and MJ has 3x more than Kareem. MVP win shares is next to hurt Kareem, LeBron is the leader with 8.813, MJ is close second place with 8.115 and Kareem is far off third with 6.105. The next and probably most glaring is BPM over 7.0 because in RS Kareem has only 7, MJ 11, and LBJ 17. And in PO it is the biggest difference with LBJ at 15, MJ at 13, and Kareem at only 6. He falls so behind in this metric and really in every metric. Lastly, Kareem was top 3 in points 7x while LBJ and MJ both did this 11 times. Not to pick on Kareem he is a great, solid third but clearly he is third in almost every category. Kareem A-Jabbar does lead in RS Win Shares and MVPs which does boost him above any #4 threat which is why there is a solid gap between 1 and 2, and then again between 3 and 4.

Thank you for the great reply I will place my responses in the bold green font.

[AussieRules]

You should probably add more value to DPOY award as well to even things out a lil bit

My issue with adding DPOY as a category is that it was only started in 1984 and many of these players were in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. which is a big chunk of the NBA history. If I were to add it the only thing it would probably change is slide Dwight Howard into the top 50 cusp and move Kawhi even higher (which I'm not sure higher than 25 makes sense for him anyway). I did have a rhyme or reason for small things like that but mainly the award was stared in 1984 which is unfair to the throwback legends of our game.

Fair enough. Good list my the way.

[The_Hater]

Curry at 30 is idiotic. Rip this **** up and try again.

Time for you to put your top 50 on paper right here so we can take turns criticizing it.

But you won’t.

[JN61]

I feel all active players but Westbrook and Curry (and maybe Harden) are way too high. Those two around where you would reasonably have them. Curry maybe 2-3 spots better. Way too low amount of emphasis on the longeativity it seems.

The problem is if you put too much emphasis on longevity then you have a player like Karl Malone knocking on top ten status which doesn't feel or look right and probably having LeBron being the clear far and away GOAT over Jordan which also doesn't feel or look right. Part of what this formula showed me is if Jordan did not retire in 94 and 99 he would be the GOAT with a few more solid seasons but what hurts him is longevity really so I had to be fair in not penalizing lack of longevity too much or else Malone, LeBron, Kobe probably all increase even more than where they are now. I appreciate the comments JN61.

Formula is still only a formula. It fails to count era, rule changes, teammates, failing to win with championship calibre teammates and so on. Factor those in and Jordan is the best player ever. Basketball isn't just raw counting numbers or accolades the context of those matter even more.

So while formulas are fancy and all it doesn't work for every player as seen Jordan vs LeBron. And as I wrote for current active players the recency bias is clearly too high while ignoring already retired players longeativity. This as an example Giannis. He is way too high, same with Leonard considering they barely cracked 10,000 points. And I know you use same for every player. Still my issue with the formula.

It would be interesting if you could incorporate come kind of component lowering value of player depending on the teammates they had. Obviously player who played with stacked teammates their entire career had way more chances to win individual (MVP/All-NBA) and team awards (championships) because help they had to be top seeds. For example if players played X number of prime years hall of famer probability stat from bball ref. Because players do benefit a lot from the market they play on and ignoring teammates and still factoring championships and MVPs and all NBA awards seems odd.
For example 5 of the best teammates and for sake of sanity restrict it to top 150 or top 200 players in HOF stat if they were all-star with that X player. Could be interesting thing to play around with handful of players and see how wildly LeBron or Durant would drop in comparison to someone else with famously weak cast like Hakeem. Would obviously be very weakly weighted component in the formula but something to think about to bring in the narrative side of things. Help you had as a player type of thing.

[JN61]

Curry at 30 is idiotic. Rip this **** up and try again.

Curry as 25-30 is extremely reasonable take. In fact only reasonable take for him. He will climb that list almost yearly and if he never wins another individual or team award he ends up good 5-10 spots higher with career counting stats.

[xdrta+]

Pretty solid overall after a quick glance. Curry really the only one that I feel is way out of position but I imagine FMVP's, which he should have one, hold a lot of weight in the formula and is the main reason for this.

If that's true, then the criteria is seriously flawed. An award from 11 random media people, dependent on who happens to make the Finals and has a few good games, should not be a deciding, or even a major, factor in an all-time ranking. That makes no sense at all.

[LesGrossman]

We all have our own lists. Normally the "formula", suggesting there was some sort of scientific approach, is crafted so your favorite guys come out on top. If this works for you why should you care what others think? Or are you implying that this should be sme sort of "official" ranking? You'll have a hard time convincing 99% of the basketball community that LeBron should be ranked higher than MJ, and thats just looking at your first two spots.

[Magic Is Magic]

We all have our own lists. Normally the "formula", suggesting there was some sort of scientific approach, is crafted so your favorite guys come out on top. If this works for you why should you care what others think? Or are you implying that this should be sme sort of "official" ranking? You'll have a hard time convincing 99% of the basketball community that LeBron should be ranked higher than MJ, and thats just looking at your first two spots.

I've read enough of your posts to know that I would probably have a hard time convincing you that LeBron should be top 10 so what's the point of your reply? The point I'm making seems clear to me, create a formula that judges each player with the exact same criteria and then see how the results shake down. My Magic formula is a work in progress and I am open to changes. In fact I recently made a few more adjustments and added couple more criteria, with new top 50 results I will post them in a moment.