New direction Bulls. do you bullieve? (August thread : have you changed your mind?)

Dez · Post #61 » by **Dez** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:16 am

People keep talking about the defense but conveniently ignore that after the Vuc trade we were the 11th or 12th ranked defense(can't remember which it was), we've added excellent perimeter defenders in Ball/Caruso and Derrick Jones Jr if he can return to his Miami form. LaVine showed on Team USA that he has improved his defense and continues to work on his game, Patrick Williams has a season under his belt and will hope to fill some of that defensive potential he's shown.

We will miss Theis defensively but this team is going to be a lot better than people seem to want to give them credit for, it's a playoff squad easily if healthy.

Post #62 » by **chitownsports4ever** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:24 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:Lonzo was a great move, and then they spoiled it by trading for DeRozan. Why would they do that on a team with 2 high usage scorers (LaVine/Vuc) and a clear primary initiator in Lonzo? No matter what DeRozan does, he'll be encroaching on someone else's territory, and he's not particularly impactful even when that isn't the case. Then there are the defensive concerns of starting both DD and LaVine on the wing... It just doesn't make sense. Trading Thad also didn't make sense for a team apparently trying to win now.

They surrounded DeRozan with three high level three point shooters and Derozan is excellent in the pick and roll so how is he encroaching on someone's territory ? Not to mention that all 4 of them are some of the better passers at their respective positions and the Bulls already were one of the better passing teams in the East but adding two more of the better passers in the league somehow will hurt the offense ? The Nets start Harden and Harris so if your offense is lethal enough in todays game it will compensate for the lack of elite defense .

Post #63 » by **GeorgeMarcus** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:31 am

SHO'NUFF wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Lonzo was a great move, and then they spoiled it by trading for DeRozan. Why would they do that on a team with 2 high usage scorers (LaVine/Vuc) and a clear primary initiator in Lonzo? No matter what DeRozan does, he'll be encroaching on someone else's territory, and he's not particularly impactful even when that isn't the case. Then there are the defensive concerns of starting both DD and LaVine on the wing... It just doesn't make sense. Trading Thad also didn't make sense for a team apparently trying to win now.

DeRozan averaged 7 apg last season. More than anyone on the Bulls. He got to the line at 7.2 attempts per game. More than anyone on the Bulls. Scored very efficiently in the paint / midrange. These are all things bulls needed and were lacking.

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

SharpyShuffle · Post #64 » by **SharpyShuffle** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:34 am

Passing up the chance to get Nance was pretty damming and makes the team look unsure of their direction. You're focused enough on winning now that you'll sign aging Derozan for 30m a year and give up picks to do so - but when you have the chance to add an excellent role player all of a sudden you don't want to even risk paying the tax, and you prioritise picks instead?

It's borderline schizophrenic to throw financial caution and future asset management to the wind to take a huge gamble on Derozan, and then turn around and prioritise financial caution and future picks over taking a much smaller gamble on Nance.

Lockdown504090 · Post #65 » by **Lockdown504090** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:35 am

when they go 2 dollars over the tax for a non title condender ill believe it.

Sothron · Post #66 » by **Sothron** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:46 am

They feel like the new Joe Johnson Hawks era of teams. Good enough to win 45-52 games a season, maybe 4-6 potential and hard ceiling is second round. There's nothing wrong with that. The Bulls haven't been relevant since Rose was there so I get the new GM wanting to at least get some solid playoff seasons under his belt.

And as far as the playoffs go...who knows? If the better teams have key injuries to deal with a healthy Bulls squad could sneak right on by and maybe win a championship. We literally just had this happen this past season with the Bucks.

Ballerhogger · Post #67 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:09 am

SHO'NUFF wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:
celticfan42487 wrote:Well I bullieve they should have made the playoffs last year and they added a lot talent imo. So playoffs yes, doing much more than the second round there? Nah.

But who wouldn't be happy with a

Lonzo
Lavine
Derozen
whomever
Vuc

Lavine is an all-star. Derozen and Vuc to varying levels are near all-stars. They're going to score a lot of points and be fun. They need like... a prime Draymond Green at PF in order to make it work for maybe a championship contender kinda stuff but hey this team is real fun and great and pretty young.

If lonzo can become decent shooter it could be good team we know DeRozan isn’t that guy.

Wait….are you saying DeRozan isn’t a good shooter? His midrange game is pretty damn good.

Yes but not a 3 pointer shooter and not great on defense .

SHO'NUFF · Post #68 » by **SHO'NUFF** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:36 am

Ballerhogger wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:If lonzo can become decent shooter it could be good team we know DeRozan isn’t that guy.

Wait….are you saying DeRozan isn’t a good shooter? His midrange game is pretty damn good.

Yes but not a 3 pointer shooter and not great on defense .

DeRozan doesn’t jack up threes at a low percentage. He’s hardly averaged 1 3pt attempt in his last 3 years and only 1.5 attempts for his whole career. He just doesn’t shoot threes…. He’s definitely not a poor shooter… just not a three point shooter.

Ballerhogger · Post #69 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:48 am

SHO'NUFF wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:

Wait….are you saying DeRozan isn’t a good shooter? His midrange game is pretty damn good.

Yes but not a 3 pointer shooter and not great on defense .

DeRozan doesn’t jack up threes at a low percentage. He’s hardly averaged 1 3pt attempt in his last 3 years and only 1.5 attempts for his whole career. He just doesn’t shoot threes…. He’s definitely not a poor shooter… just not a three point shooter.

which they need help spread the floor vuviec has to get rebounds somtime . Alex Caruso sucked at 3 last season

celticfan42487 · Post #70 » by **celticfan42487** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:07 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Lonzo was a great move, and then they spoiled it by trading for DeRozan. Why would they do that on a team with 2 high usage scorers (LaVine/Vuc) and a clear primary initiator in Lonzo? No matter what DeRozan does, he'll be encroaching on someone else's territory, and he's not particularly impactful even when that isn't the case. Then there are the defensive concerns of starting both DD and LaVine on the wing... It just doesn't make sense. Trading Thad also didn't make sense for a team apparently trying to win now.

DeRozan averaged 7 apg last season. More than anyone on the Bulls. He got to the line at 7.2 attempts per game. More than anyone on the Bulls. Scored very efficiently in the paint / midrange. These are all things bulls needed and were lacking.

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

Lonzo's inability to score with the ball in his hands completely kills him as the primary ballhandler in my mind.

And in that way playing him off ball from Derozen or Lavine is perfect.

He's like a superstar version of Smart on offense, you don't want him call out plays from a top of the key ISO or running the pick and roll but if he can get the ball off rotation he's going to make the penetrative pass to the easy bucket or he'll shoot that above league average 3 while open.

If you view Lonzo that way, as an off ball SG who can't create a play as the primary ballhandler but can when getting the ball in rotation or finish it then it makes great sense for him to be next to Derozen and Lavine. He doesn't need the ball in his hands at the start of the play and all his strengths are activated once someone else collapses the defense while all his weaknesses (ability to score from a triple threat position) are hidden.

Post #71 » by **GeorgeMarcus** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:20 am

celticfan42487 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
DeRozan averaged 7 apg last season. More than anyone on the Bulls. He got to the line at 7.2 attempts per game. More than anyone on the Bulls. Scored very efficiently in the paint / midrange. These are all things bulls needed and were lacking.

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

Lonzo's inability to score with the ball in his hands completely kills him as the primary ballhandler in my mind.

And in that way playing him off ball from Derozen or Lavine is perfect.

He's like a superstar version of Smart on offense, you don't want him call out plays from a top of the key ISO or running the pick and roll but if he can get the ball off rotation he's going to make the penetrative pass to the easy bucket or he'll shoot that above league average 3 while open.

If you view Lonzo that way, as an off ball SG who can't create a play as the primary ballhandler but can when getting the ball in rotation or finish it then it makes great sense for him to be next to Derozen and Lavine. He doesn't need the ball in his hands at the start of the play and all his strengths are activated once someone else collapses the defense while all his weaknesses (ability to score from a triple threat position) are hidden.

What you describe is the best option at this point, and most likely what they plan on doing. I just don't trust DeRozan to be the catalyst of a winning offense in that way.

Maybe this is the year he proves me wrong. DeMar seems like a good dude so I hope it is. For now though, color me skeptical. I'll be surprised if they finish the season with a winning record.

God Squad · Post #72 » by **God Squad** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:22 am

Their defense is going to be crazy bad. They should still be a playoff team albeit not a contender. The bulls have sucked for so long they just decided to go for it. I'm sure New York fans wouldn't change a thing, regardless of their loss to the Hawks. (Although they didn't give up picks for (Derozan). It will be interesting how their season unfolds.

Dez · Post #73 » by **Dez** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:34 am

God Squad wrote:Their defense is going to be crazy bad. They should still be a playoff team albeit not a contender. The bulls have sucked for so long they just decided to go for it. I'm sure New York fans wouldn't change a thing, regardless of their loss to the Hawks. (Although they didn't give up picks for (Derozan). It will be interesting how their season unfolds.

Again after trading for Vucevic we had the 11th or 12th rated defense, we've added defenders in Ball, Caruso on the perimeter and Bradley for the interior.

This defense is going to be bad talk isn't being looked at objectively.

BostonCouchGM · Post #74 » by **BostonCouchGM** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:19 am

they have defenders now (Ball and Williams), scorers (LaVine, DeRozan, White) and one of the better centers in the league. They've definitely improved and should be vying for one of the last 2-3 playoff spots. But they could just as easily miss the playoffs as well. Their problem, along with the Celtics, is that other teams in the Eastern Conference have improved considerably as well. The Hawks and Knicks had stellar drafts/offseasons, the Nets are loaded, the Bucks should be just as good, the Hornets are loaded and have depth, the Celtics improved their bench, the Sixers have essentially the same team that has finished high in the standings, the bottom dwellers all added elite talent via the draft. It's going to be a dog fight.

SHO'NUFF · Post #75 » by **SHO'NUFF** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:48 am

Ballerhogger wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:Yes but not a 3 pointer shooter and not great on defense .

DeRozan doesn’t jack up threes at a low percentage. He’s hardly averaged 1 3pt attempt in his last 3 years and only 1.5 attempts for his whole career. He just doesn’t shoot threes…. He’s definitely not a poor shooter… just not a three point shooter.
which they need help spread the floor vuviec has to get rebounds somtime . Alex Caruso sucked at 3 last season

Alex Caruso sucked at 3 last season?!?

He shot 40% at 2.4 attempts.

There’s enough spreading the floor with the bulls. Every single one of our starters except DeRozan can shoot the 3……Lonzo, LaVine, PWill, & even Vuc.

Including Coby & Caruso

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #76 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:24 am

Michael Jackson wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Depends on what you define success.
Can this team contend for the 6th seed, maybe even 4th? Sure.
Can this team evolve into a serious contender? Very unlikely.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

As is they are surely not a contender. AK proved he can overturn a roster and make a team look like a NBA team instead of a G league team. He seems active so maybe he can make more moves that improve this team but right now they are a second round exit team at best. To be fair though the culture of that team needed to be revamped and that is step one, so there is a direction but I don't think anyone anywhere thinks this team can contend seriously.

Once again it will depend on how you define success.
I don't think this is a team that has enough talent to become a contender, unless Patrick Williams pops in an unpredictable way.
And now it's quite asset poor to try to upgrade at later stage.
Just to use old Jerry's (RIP) terminology. they got from A to B, but they don't have the potential to go from B to C.

UcanUwill · Post #77 » by **UcanUwill** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:14 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Lonzo was a great move, and then they spoiled it by trading for DeRozan. Why would they do that on a team with 2 high usage scorers (LaVine/Vuc) and a clear primary initiator in Lonzo? No matter what DeRozan does, he'll be encroaching on someone else's territory, and he's not particularly impactful even when that isn't the case. Then there are the defensive concerns of starting both DD and LaVine on the wing... It just doesn't make sense. Trading Thad also didn't make sense for a team apparently trying to win now.

DeRozan averaged 7 apg last season. More than anyone on the Bulls. He got to the line at 7.2 attempts per game. More than anyone on the Bulls. Scored very efficiently in the paint / midrange. These are all things bulls needed and were lacking.

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

I see people still have this false believe that Lonzo is great initiator, which was on his scouting report when he was a rookie, but honestly he really isnt. He is good in transition, but in half court he is barely a point guard at all, he is surprisingly good off ball player. Bulls could start Demar of the bench, but anyhow, I imagine Demar will probably be their main ''point guard''/''point forward'' in the half court offense, he is easily their best playmaker in that setting. Those 3 perimeter players really aren't the problem in my opinion, I am more concerned with lack of rim protection and scarce big men rotation.

peZt · Post #78 » by **peZt** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:30 am

They basically traded away their future for a 31 year old Center with no defense. What do you think?

Richard Miller · Post #79 » by **Richard Miller** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:15 am

peZt wrote:They basically traded away their future for a 31 year old Center with no defense. What do you think?

What future

Post #80 » by **Michael Jackson** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:57 am

Richard Miller wrote:
peZt wrote:They basically traded away their future for a 31 year old Center with no defense. What do you think?

What future

I believe he is referring to the 2 FRP they traded which will likely be between 10-20. They players weren’t the future they would get but the draft assets to make another trade. Vuc is almost certainly better than what those picks would be but it does hamper future trades too. At best it is a wash imho. Vuc is also still on a good contract and is still tradable.

Do you believe Bulls are on the right track?