Manu Ginobili was Really Amazing in 2005

[elchengue20]

One of the most underrated players of all time, specially by American fans and some of the media.

For example, a few months ago people was saying that Jamal Crawford is the GOAT 6th man and better than him. Lol.

[SeattleJazzFan]

prime manu is right there with kobe and wade. imo, you could basically flip a coin between those three and there wouldn't be a loser.

manu seriously might be the most underrated dude in nba history - he's at least in the conversation.

[DwayneSchintzus]

Thank you for doing this.

From a Laker fan, no less!

[DoctorX]

One thing to also note that year the league was still super physical. Hand checking and hard fouls were still going on. The reason I mention that it seemed like every game Manu took huge hits going to the basket. Guys were slamming him to the ground, but he still played through it.

I still remember the series against Sonic in '05 and how dirty the Sonics were with some of their dirty fouls against Manu. Nate McMillan at one point said and I'm paraphrasing "I respect the way he plays. He's fearless and not scared of physical play but because of the way he plays and the hits he takes by the time he's 40 he's going to be in a wheelchair."

Manu was a lot of fun from '04-'07. I felt those were his prime years. When he was on the highlights were amazing and just seeing how frustrated defenders were guarding him made if fun. Guys literally hated guarding Manu. He got underneath their skin with his pesky play and just being relentless.

I think he would have been even better in this era considering the rules favor his game more than the era he played in.

[mixerball]

i just came from reddit where i learned he isnt even remotely 75 material(not even 100) and if he didnt land on spurs would be out of league in 4 years washed and he is one of the most overrated players in history. every deviation from this gets you downvoted.

[NZB2323]

He deserved Reggie's spot. A much better all around player (who was a part of a dynasty).

How about Lenny Wilkins? There’s nothing about his resume that makes him a top 75 player. I think Wilkins is just popular and has been coaching for a long time so people voted for him, but Manu, Reggie, Dwight Howard, and Artis Gilmore should be ranked ahead of him. Hell, Artis Gilmore has a MVP, Finals MVP, and a championship and Wilkins never made an all-NBA team.

[ATRAIN53]

57th pick out of 58

Only draft pick from that 1999 draft class going to the HOF


Look at this huge game 5, series was tied 2-2 and Spurs seeking that second title:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505170SAS.html

39 points, 4/6 from 3 and 15 of 17 from the FT stripe!
They hacked him like Shaq and he killed them at the line.

[Point-Forward]

I remember when the first on/off stats came out, from APM to RAPM, in the mid 2000s or so.
In the first 4-5 years there were always the same 5 guys on op of the ranking: LeBron, Garnett, Dirk, Timmeh and Manu Ginobili.

Can you please share the RAPM data here?

I remember checking it out a long time ago and if I'm not mistaken I can recall Manu being #1 on those lists in years like 2007, but I'm having trouble finding that stuff again. Would be great to have it.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

You can also navigate individual years on the left side.

Thank you very much!

So basically the guy was ranked #1 in 2005, #3 in 2006, #3 in 2007, #2 in 2008 and #2 in 2011. And overall from 1997 to 2014, only Lebron, Duncan and Shaq were more impactful by RAPM standards. Only three behemoths of that caliber could beat him.

That's quite amazing.

Thank you for doing this.

From a Laker fan, no less!

My pleasure, man.

Yeah, Lakers fan here, but without pretending to be too corny, im a basketball fan above all else. I love studying and watching the all time great players, and Manu has always been one of the most enjoyable for me. Never get tired of checking his games.

[Point-Forward]

One thing to also note that year the league was still super physical. Hand checking and hard fouls were still going on. The reason I mention that it seemed like every game Manu took huge hits going to the basket. Guys were slamming him to the ground, but he still played through it.

I still remember the series against Sonic in '05 and how dirty the Sonics were with some of their dirty fouls against Manu. Nate McMillan at one point said and I'm paraphrasing "I respect the way he plays. He's fearless and not scared of physical play but because of the way he plays and the hits he takes by the time he's 40 he's going to be in a wheelchair."

Manu was a lot of fun from '04-'07. I felt those were his prime years. When he was on the highlights were amazing and just seeing how frustrated defenders were guarding him made if fun. Guys literally hated guarding Manu. He got underneath their skin with his pesky play and just being relentless.

I think he would have been even better in this era considering the rules favor his game more than the era he played in.

Great post.

That's one of the most impressive things for me. That fact that he was throwing himself against the basket and basically attempting (and most of the time finishing or getting foul calls) impossible finishes in a traffic-infested paint. That era was criminal for perimeter players with his style, and yet he managed himself with excellence. If you can point to a negative though, he did take a toll physically when you consider the injuries he suffered. Based on that fact, I'm not really sure he could have averaged MVP like numbers with a full starter role and your typical 35-40 minutes/game. Probably not, but who knows. After all, I think his sacrifice was not only beneficial for the Spurs, in a way it was also beneficial for him. But better numbers than what he averaged and a couple more ASG selections? Yeah, no doubt.

And your comment about him being better in this current era is a no brainer for me. Guys like Iverson and Manu would benefit hugely if they played today.

[BarbaGrizz]

He´s on my Top 3 of the Most Resourcefull players ever, with Pistol Pete and Larry

[Point-Forward]

He´s on my Top 3 of the Most Resourcefull players ever, with Pistol Pete and Larry

Two of my absolute favs also. Pretty good taste you have, sir.

And yes, the three of them had an endless bag of tricks. Born to play basketball.

[maradro]

The minutes argument is dumb

People say if he had the workload of a franchise player a la mcgrady or wade his body would break down and his team would be first round cannon fodder. Isn't that exactly what happened to mcgrady and wade? Wade has the best of both worlds because he played in both settings, but when he was in a big 3 he was playing similar minutes to Manu (same with ray Allen, pierce, etc). They were franchise players that didn't get anywhere, and once on good teams their minutes, FGA, points all reduced significantly. Or is the argument that it's better to be an arenas type who plays a lot of soft minutes? Doesn't make sense to me

Wade I have great respect for because he played similar degree of physicality and I'm not going to hold those post Shaq pre lebron years against him, but it annoys me that players like arenas or mcgrady who played soft lonestar minutes, didn't take their teams anywhere, and bodies broke down routinely get rated higher than a player like Manu who sacrificed stats, played high impact minutes and actually played more minutes total than either.. but he's the injury prone guy who can't handle big minutes..

[DaddyCool19]

One thing to also note that year the league was still super physical. Hand checking and hard fouls were still going on. The reason I mention that it seemed like every game Manu took huge hits going to the basket. Guys were slamming him to the ground, but he still played through it.

I still remember the series against Sonic in '05 and how dirty the Sonics were with some of their dirty fouls against Manu. Nate McMillan at one point said and I'm paraphrasing "I respect the way he plays. He's fearless and not scared of physical play but because of the way he plays and the hits he takes by the time he's 40 he's going to be in a wheelchair."

Manu was a lot of fun from '04-'07. I felt those were his prime years. When he was on the highlights were amazing and just seeing how frustrated defenders were guarding him made if fun. Guys literally hated guarding Manu. He got underneath their skin with his pesky play and just being relentless.

I think he would have been even better in this era considering the rules favor his game more than the era he played in.

"He's one of those guys, who, at age 50, won't be able to walk," former NBA coach Nate McMillan has said.

[G R E Y]

Yes!

[maxwellcu]

prime manu is right there with kobe and wade. imo, you could basically flip a coin between those three and there wouldn't be a loser.

If you asked me to choose which take was more ridiculous between

(1) Ginobili is not a top 75 player in NBA history; and
(2) Ginobili is a coinflip vs. Wade and Kobe,

it'd be a pretty easy choice .

[Point-Forward]

Manu doing his thing with Argentina:

Watch on YouTube

[LessEyeTest]

Manu and Parker could have made multiple champions out of so many players in the 2000s... like KG or Dirk or Amar'e. The amount of dribble penetration, creativity and overall play they offered as a PG+SG combo (while not being defensive liabilities) was hard to beat for most other teams who usually only had a great PG or a great SG, but not both.

Even today, I feel that they don't get enough recognition as the effect of their impact is gifted to Duncan in order to prop up his Top 10 case. I mean, Duncan's All-Time Top 10 case is actually part Duncan, part Parker and part Ginobii. If fans were able to properly separate out Duncan from Parker and Ginobili, then Duncan would be listed outside the Top 10 in the same bracket along with KG and Karl Malone.

I see something similar with Steph Curry's Top 10 case too, which is actually part Curry, part Klay and part Dray (along with other great depth). Part of Klay's and Dray's impact are gifted to Curry, instead of fully separating Curry out from Klay and Dray.

the issue with this narrative is that Timmeh won two championships before those guys became anything close to that

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Ignore him. The guy makes it his mission to put down Tim Duncan each and every single day. If you go through his posts you'll see his obsession with Duncan clearly.

And yes, obviously Duncan is a top 10 guy. Nobody with knowledge of the game questions that.

[dhsilv2]

Manu and Parker could have made multiple champions out of so many players in the 2000s... like KG or Dirk or Amar'e. The amount of dribble penetration, creativity and overall play they offered as a PG+SG combo (while not being defensive liabilities) was hard to beat for most other teams who usually only had a great PG or a great SG, but not both.

Even today, I feel that they don't get enough recognition as the effect of their impact is gifted to Duncan in order to prop up his Top 10 case. I mean, Duncan's All-Time Top 10 case is actually part Duncan, part Parker and part Ginobii. If fans were able to properly separate out Duncan from Parker and Ginobili, then Duncan would be listed outside the Top 10 in the same bracket along with KG and Karl Malone.

I see something similar with Steph Curry's Top 10 case too, which is actually part Curry, part Klay and part Dray (along with other great depth). Part of Klay's and Dray's impact are gifted to Curry, instead of fully separating Curry out from Klay and Dray.

the issue with this narrative is that Timmeh won two championships before those guys became anything close to that

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Ignore him. The guy makes it his mission to put down Tim Duncan each and every single day. If you go through his posts you'll see his obsession with Duncan clearly.

And yes, obviously Duncan is a top 10 guy. Nobody with knowledge of the game questions that.

Anyone that says someone wouldn't be in the top 10, like KG...you kinda gotta just "bless their heart". It's cute but you're not going to take much else seriously at that point.

[Capn'O]

But what about his one on one skills?

Oh. Right. They're in those videos.

[Point-Forward]

Behind the back plays.

Watch on YouTube