Jokic vs Giannis

[old skool]

My gosh. Two great players. Either could be better than the other in anyone's mind. When we have to resort to splitting hairs and fairly ridiculous scenarios like who would win more if they switched teams.... it seems pointless.

[QingJames]

Durant would like a word

Durant is not remotely as good defensively as Giannis or as good offensively as Jokic.

Yeah, but he is better offensively than Giannis and better defensively than Jokic.

So he's not as good at the things Giannis and Jokic are dominant at but he's better at the things they aren't dominant at and you think this is a case for him being better than them? I'm not convinced he's better defensively than Jokic anyways. Even leaving this year's Jokic aside, the defensive impact of a center who is mediocre defensively is still far greater than the defensive impact of a wing who is mediocre defensively - which Durant has been since his injury.

[User_friendly]

Imo the top 4 players in the league:

KD - giannis- joker- curry

in no order then a gap.

I agree very much, but I also think Doncic is the clear 5, the gap being small.
BTW, I can't understand how people can argue one of those is so higher over the rest that it's not even even close, or things like that.
You have to be very fanatic to speak like that, when those 4 or five are SO DIFFERENT among themselves, and all of them have weaknesses and strengths that the others don't have, and vice-versa.
I don't think there's ever been before so good, and so equally good, 4 or 5 players like this.

Between Giannis and joker I'm giving it slightly to Giannis just bc of what he accomplished in the finals last year. But this season is still young.

So young that that ranking of 4, and also, the gap you mention, could very well change, especially because of Luka.

[nate33]

Durant is not remotely as good defensively as Giannis or as good offensively as Jokic.

Yeah, but he is better offensively than Giannis and better defensively than Jokic.

So he's not as good at the things Giannis and Jokic are dominant at but he's better at the things they aren't dominant at and you think this is a case for him being better than them?

Sure. I don't see why this is controversial. If, on a scale of 1-10, Giannis is a 10 on defense and and 7 on offense, Durant is a 9 on defense and a 9 on offense, and Jokic is an 7 on defense and a 10 on offense, who is better?

I'm not convinced he's better defensively than Jokic anyways. Even leaving this year's Jokic aside, the defensive impact of a center who is mediocre defensively is still far greater than the defensive impact of a wing who is mediocre defensively - which Durant has been since his injury.

I look at it the other way. A mediocre defensive center is a real problem because center is the most important position on defense. It's a lot easier to compensate for a mediocre defender at another position than it is to compensate for a mediocre defensive center.

[vital_signs]

/thread
/homer

[LakersLegacy]

Giannis is just amazing. His slashing game is like a a giant 2 guard. Definitely shades of young Jordan and Kobe before they got more into their fadeaway. And he is a tenacious defender.

Jokic is so Hakeem fluid it’s wild.

Durant is in the Bird/Dirk mold and just shoots lights out. To me his defense has regressed substantially but that’s understandable in a way too

Take your pick. For me it’s Giannis and he still getting better which is great for the game

[art_tatum]

Imo the top 4 players in the league:

KD - giannis- joker- curry

in no order then a gap.

I agree very much, but I also think Doncic is the clear 5, the gap being small.
BTW, I can't understand how people can argue one of those is so higher over the rest that it's not even even close, or things like that.
You have to be very fanatic to speak like that, when those 4 or five are SO DIFFERENT among themselves, and all of them have weaknesses and strengths that the others don't have, and vice-versa.
I don't think there's ever been before so good, and so equally good, 4 or 5 players like this.

Between Giannis and joker I'm giving it slightly to Giannis just bc of what he accomplished in the finals last year. But this season is still young.

So young that that ranking of 4, and also, the gap you mention, could very well change, especially because of Luka.

There's definitely a gap between superstars and stars. Like in 2015-2018 it's pretty much curry, LeBron, KD, maybe Kawhi, and a gap. It's not just stats, it's how much they affect winning. I dislike LeBron but i can clearly tell he was a level above a embiid or harden.

People like to argue Lillard vs curry bc they have been close in stats, but the gap is huge. Just like how Beal had a higher ppg than curry or Giannis last year but they are in a different league.

Luka is still young, he will get there imo just like how Giannis did.
The season is young so clearly you have to base alot of it on last season too.

[KGtabake]

My current top2 players.
I take Jokic because i love centers and i grew up watching Sabonis being the best big i've ever watched. Ever since i was hoping that someone in the future would be able to duplicate his excellence.
That someone is Jokic although defensively he isn't close to Sabonis. He's better offensively tho.

[Infinite Llamas]

I always love when defense matters, until suddenly it doesn’t.

Giannis is a complete monster & just won a championship, FMVP, DPOY & 2 MVPs.

It’s not a debate.

It absolutely is a debate because you can’t just compare accolades. You have to take both players and strip them of the accolades and awards and examine their strengths and weaknesses. Because otherwise, we can just give Giannis players like Rivers and Campazzo and we can give Jokic guys like Holiday, Lopez and Middleton and who do you think wins FMVP then? Because it certainly wouldn’t have been Giannis.

Oh look, Giannis hater slant. That's such a ridiculous way to put it I don't know why you even bother.

Like it or not, teammates matter. Jordan didn’t win championships when his second best player was Oakley. Denver flaming out with MPJ and Rivers as your options shouldn’t be a knock on Jokic in a true comparison of players.

Furthermore, we are seeing Giannis deal with his own gleague roster support this year and non surprisingly, the Bucks look mediocre with a bunch of their good players out. One star can only do so much.

That’s why I said you can’t just say that Giannis getting the ring and FMVP is some great piece of deciding evidence in this debate. It isn’t. Give Jokic guys like Middleton and Holiday and he wins too. That’s why it’s a debate. Both guys are ceiling raisers. I just think that Jokic is the more impactful of the two. No hater slant nonsense.

[Pennebaker]

Jokic may never win a championship.

This is not a question with Giannis.

[GeorgeSears]

I watched Giannis go up against Brazil, when he played on the Greece national team in the world championships in 2019, and the head coach of Brazil laughed at how easy it was to defend Giannis. He said : “Why this sport is wonderful? On the other side, you have a guy who won the MVP, he’s 23 years old and who stops him tonight?! The guy who is 40 years old and kicks his ass on the court! That’s basketball!”

Giannis is one ACL tear from becoming an afterthought, I hope it doesn't happen to him, but athleticism is the main part of his dominance. He has absolutely no mid-range, let alone long range, jumper to speak of to fall back on once his explosiveness diminishes.

He's still great for right now but I'm definitely taking Jokic for now and future.

[AleksandarN]

Yeah, but he is better offensively than Giannis and better defensively than Jokic.

So he's not as good at the things Giannis and Jokic are dominant at but he's better at the things they aren't dominant at and you think this is a case for him being better than them?

Sure. I don't see why this is controversial. If, on a scale of 1-10, Giannis is a 10 on defense and and 7 on offense, Durant is a 9 on defense and a 9 on offense, and Jokic is an 7 on defense and a 10 on offense, who is better?

I'm not convinced he's better defensively than Jokic anyways. Even leaving this year's Jokic aside, the defensive impact of a center who is mediocre defensively is still far greater than the defensive impact of a wing who is mediocre defensively - which Durant has been since his injury.

I look at it the other way. A mediocre defensive center is a real problem because center is the most important position on defense. It's a lot easier to compensate for a mediocre defender at another position than it is to compensate for a mediocre defensive center.

mediocre? You obviously haven't watched him this year. He is has improved dramatically this year.

[Johnny Firpo]

This year so far Jokic is clearly better, but it's still relatively early into the season.

[skones]

It absolutely is a debate because you can’t just compare accolades. You have to take both players and strip them of the accolades and awards and examine their strengths and weaknesses. Because otherwise, we can just give Giannis players like Rivers and Campazzo and we can give Jokic guys like Holiday, Lopez and Middleton and who do you think wins FMVP then? Because it certainly wouldn’t have been Giannis.

Oh look, Giannis hater slant. That's such a ridiculous way to put it I don't know why you even bother.

Like it or not, teammates matter. Jordan didn’t win championships when his second best player was Oakley. Denver flaming out with MPJ and Rivers as your options shouldn’t be a knock on Jokic in a true comparison of players.

Furthermore, we are seeing Giannis deal with his own gleague roster support this year and non surprisingly, the Bucks look mediocre with a bunch of their good players out. One star can only do so much.

That’s why I said you can’t just say that Giannis getting the ring and FMVP is some great piece of deciding evidence in this debate. It isn’t. Give Jokic guys like Middleton and Holiday and he wins too. That’s why it’s a debate. Both guys are ceiling raisers. I just think that Jokic is the more impactful of the two. No hater slant nonsense.

When you frame it with Campazzo and Rivers, that IS hater slant, and there's no two ways about it. Guy's got MPJ, Barton, Morris, Gordon, Millsap, etc. and THOSE are the names you went with. In no way, shape, or form did I say teammates don't matter, you've gone from ridiculous slant, to a straw man. It tracks with your history.

[skones]

It absolutely is a debate because you can’t just compare accolades. You have to take both players and strip them of the accolades and awards and examine their strengths and weaknesses. Because otherwise, we can just give Giannis players like Rivers and Campazzo and we can give Jokic guys like Holiday, Lopez and Middleton and who do you think wins FMVP then? Because it certainly wouldn’t have been Giannis.

Oh look, Giannis hater slant. That's such a ridiculous way to put it I don't know why you even bother.

Like it or not, teammates matter. Jordan didn’t win championships when his second best player was Oakley. Denver flaming out with MPJ and Rivers as your options shouldn’t be a knock on Jokic in a true comparison of players.

Furthermore, we are seeing Giannis deal with his own gleague roster support this year and non surprisingly, the Bucks look mediocre with a bunch of their good players out. One star can only do so much.

That’s why I said you can’t just say that Giannis getting the ring and FMVP is some great piece of deciding evidence in this debate. It isn’t. Give Jokic guys like Middleton and Holiday and he wins too. That’s why it’s a debate. Both guys are ceiling raisers. I just think that Jokic is the more impactful of the two. No hater slant nonsense.

When you frame it with Campazzo and Rivers, that IS hater slant, and there's no two ways about it. Guy's got MPJ, Barton, Morris, Gordon, Millsap, etc. and THOSE are the names you went with. In no way, shape, or form did I say teammates don't matter, you've gone from ridiculous slant, to a straw man.

[D.Brasco]

Jokic may never win a championship.

This is not a question with Giannis.

Yeah but it was until very recently. A championship is a team achievement. There's nothing about Jokic's game that says he can't lead the right team to a Ship.

[Infinite Llamas]

Oh look, Giannis hater slant. That's such a ridiculous way to put it I don't know why you even bother.

Like it or not, teammates matter. Jordan didn’t win championships when his second best player was Oakley. Denver flaming out with MPJ and Rivers as your options shouldn’t be a knock on Jokic in a true comparison of players.

Furthermore, we are seeing Giannis deal with his own gleague roster support this year and non surprisingly, the Bucks look mediocre with a bunch of their good players out. One star can only do so much.

That’s why I said you can’t just say that Giannis getting the ring and FMVP is some great piece of deciding evidence in this debate. It isn’t. Give Jokic guys like Middleton and Holiday and he wins too. That’s why it’s a debate. Both guys are ceiling raisers. I just think that Jokic is the more impactful of the two. No hater slant nonsense.

When you frame it with Campazzo and Rivers, that IS hater slant, and there's no two ways about it. Guy's got MPJ, Barton, Morris, Gordon, Millsap, etc. and THOSE are the names you went with. In no way, shape, or form did I say teammates don't matter, you've gone from ridiculous slant, to a straw man.

Barton barely played post injury and Millsap was useless aside from one game in the playoffs. So you really can’t use them.

Giannis, MPJ, Gordon, Morris, Rivers, Facu
Jokic, Middleton, Jrue, Lopez, Pat, Portis

Which roster do you deem to be more of a championship level roster? I’m just curious.

[Pachinko_]

I watched Giannis go up against Brazil, when he played on the Greece national team in the world championships in 2019, and the head coach of Brazil laughed at how easy it was to defend Giannis. He said : “Why this sport is wonderful? On the other side, you have a guy who won the MVP, he’s 23 years old and who stops him tonight?! The guy who is 40 years old and kicks his ass on the court! That’s basketball!”

Jokic is also nearly half the player in FIBA, just compare his per36 stats in NBA and International.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/players/nikola-jokic-1.html

FIBA's different rules affect everybody.

Giannis is one ACL tear from becoming an afterthought, I hope it doesn't happen to him, but athleticism is the main part of his dominance. He has absolutely no mid-range, let alone long range, jumper to speak of to fall back on once his explosiveness diminishes.

So what would MJ be if he couldn't jump? What would Shaq have achieved if he was short? How good is Lebron with a snapped ACL?
This is not about who is more balanced, it's about who is better.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Part of the problem with these arguments is that these players aren't static. They get better and sometimes worse through different points of their career. When Giannis was developing he would go through a rut where teams figured him out a bit and had to add something to his game. Or he for bigger so had to adjust his shooting. There will be times Jokic looks clearly better but also times Giannis is clearly better. And you can't base it on career cause they are both so young

[Jables]

I watched Giannis go up against Brazil, when he played on the Greece national team in the world championships in 2019, and the head coach of Brazil laughed at how easy it was to defend Giannis. He said : “Why this sport is wonderful? On the other side, you have a guy who won the MVP, he’s 23 years old and who stops him tonight?! The guy who is 40 years old and kicks his ass on the court! That’s basketball!”

Jokic is also nearly half the player in FIBA, just compare his per36 stats in NBA and International.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/players/nikola-jokic-1.html

FIBA's different rules affect everybody.

Giannis is one ACL tear from becoming an afterthought, I hope it doesn't happen to him, but athleticism is the main part of his dominance. He has absolutely no mid-range, let alone long range, jumper to speak of to fall back on once his explosiveness diminishes.

So what would MJ be if he couldn't jump? What would Shaq have achieved if he was short? How good is Lebron with a snapped ACL?
This is not about who is more balanced, it's about who is better.

People always say the same **** about good athletes turning into bums at 30 because it's all they have, never heard it said about a white player funnily enough, even when it's some near 7 foot PF where everyone acts as if they have a relatable body, dude you'd think he'd struggle more to come back from an ACL, you don't have less to lose from an injury lmao great athletes always come back from injuries better.