I don't know what a foul is anymore

[queridiculo]

The rule was changed to stop guys from leaning into players when taking jumpshots and to stop guys from kicking their foot out.

Do you really believe that Ball was trying (while seated on the floor) roll into the defender next to him to get a foul call?

It was incidental contact at best, and most un bias fans would say thats a no call at the end of a game.

What he intended to do doesn't really matter.

What happened on the floor is clear as day. He embellished contact to draw a foul and clipped the opposing player in the process.

[shangrila]

I haven't watched carefully enough to say, but statistically speaking it's 100% fully normal for some team to end up like this. And it makes sense given their personnel--D Lo, Beasley, and Edwards are their perimeter creators and all of them are very poor at getting to the line, and KAT's perimeter-oriented game makes him one of the least FT-reliant high-scoring bigs around. Plus guys like Beverly and McDaniels never get to the line. On the other end, they start a handful of poor defenders and thus rely on young, foul-happy guys like McDaniels, Vanderbilt, Reid, and Okogie for rim protection and energy. It makes sense they'd end ip that way.

You're right that they could try to correct that some. Edwards in particular should be able to learn how to draw FTs better, and KAT could lean more into that part of his game (esp given his constant shooting threat).

Yeah. That's probably some of it. Personally I think it's a combination of several things.

Towns' FTA are down about 25%... only his rookie season was lower. But he's not shooting more three pointers. I wouldn't think the new rules would really affect a guy like him who still relies on posting up a lot. But it must be. He does flail and flop a lot as he almost seems out of control, which leads to way too many offensive fouls and incessant whining.

Anthony Edwards is tied for 9th in FGA... he comes in at #60 for FTA. In an amusing anecdote, former Timberwolves mainstays, Andrew Wiggins and Ricky Rubio, are both shooting more FTA than Edwards. Some of that is probably that Edwards is still young and either settles a lot or hasn't figured out how to draw fouls yet. Or, maybe he hasn't "earned" the whistle yet. Or again, some combination.



[Note: The Wolves were 7th in FTA last season.]

Minnesota vs. Indiana tonight...

- Pacers opponents are #3 in opponent FTA.
- Pacers are #28 in FTA.

Something has to give... right?

I think the universe might explode first

[InsideInfo]

Not sure what's there to overturn.

The rule changes made it pretty clear that any attempt to draw a foul that results in displacing or dislodging a player will be ruled an offensive foul.

That's a jump shot. That is where most players land. That is not jumping into the player. Not only that, he doesn't foul him in any way on the offensive side unless his hand gets him on his follow through which is just lol. It's a horrible call.

After watching that clip, Lonzo fell down intentionally for no legitimate reason, and then directs his fall towards the defenders' knees. That's dangerous and was rightly called an offensive foul, imo.

Pause it at 11 second mark. It actually looks like the defender possible hits lonzo on the arm an knocks him off balance causing him to fall at that angle. Seems very odd to me that he would just fall and then roll for no reason at all other than looking for a foul.

Its also super fkn weird that the NBA doesnt give any other view of this play. All of the sky cameras and different angles they have... on a play that was reviewed. This is the only angle they ever showed. Sketchy if you ask me.

[queridiculo]

Pause it at 11 second mark. It actually looks like the defender possible hits lonzo on the arm an knocks him off balance causing him to fall at that angle. Seems very odd to me that he would just fall and then roll for no reason at all other than looking for a foul.

Its also super fkn weird that the NBA doesnt give any other view of this play. All of the sky cameras and different angles they have... on a play that was reviewed. This is the only angle they ever showed. Sketchy if you ask me.

Yes, Ball holds his arm and yes it is hit, but it's also clear as day that the contact isn't what's causing him to go the ground.

He does it all on his own to embellish contact and to draw a pre 2021 era foul.

[Sothron]

Doesn't matter what game I'm watching. You watch so much contact when a guy goes to the hoop, getting knocked off his path, with no call at all. But then you get ticky-tack non basketball touch fouls called on the perimeter or when they drive and shoot. Replays show the refs are calling some and not others. This is getting out of hand, there has to be a better solution to refs controlling the game so much.

This has been hell to watch as a fan. For example Trae Young attacks the basket, gets absolutely demolished and thrown to the floor. No call. On the other end random player X is barely touched or bumped into and it is a foul. There is zero and I mean zero consistency in calls on either end for either team. The Bulls/Knicks game recently had the Bulls almost get robbed by the refs when every trip down the court they were getting called for fouls and the Knicks were tossing Lavine and Bulls around with zero calls.

Trae Young fans don't get to complain about referees inconsistencies. He's part of the reason they've made changes to how they call games. Foul baiting had got to stop, he was spamming it last year especially in the playoffs. It wasn't basketball anymore. Referees right now are adjusting to how you call games. But Trae no longer gets the benefit of the doubt. He is still a great player and gets his numbers. He just has to change his style of play and stop looking for refs to bail him out now.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Read my post. I'm talking about offensive players with the ball attacking the basket and getting hard fouled while attempting to shoot or on the drive with the ball in their hands. That's a foul. That has never in the history of the NBA been "foul baiting". Trae is so obvious to see this because he's such a smaller player that when he gets mauled and I mean MAULED and doesn't get a call it is simply absurd. And it is not just Trae. You need to reread my post you quoted. ALL players and teams are getting this bizarro officiating where players can clobber the offensive player and get away with it.

THAT is not basketball. I don't want to go back to those boring af 78-75 games in the 90's when the refs let guys get away with murder. I remember those games. It was horrible to watch.

[Lockdown504090]

I was more thinking national broadcasters, not the local guys. Local guys have always been pretty pretty bad. Maybe a bias as I've never lived in a place where there was a "local" broadcast" (certainly watch them today with the internet being a thing), but I tend to forget all about those in terms of influencing the "greater" nba fan base. Local games always have fans thinking things went against them no matter what anyway. Fans are after all by the very definition of the word, irrational.

Yeah thats big true, like when when the broadcast has a bunch of people who coached and/or played and they dont know the rules, I think it hurts the game, especially on a national level more, youre right.

This example i think encapsulates what im talking about

Watch on YouTube

What she did has been allowed for the 25 years ive been involved in basketball. people still believe you cant do this and yell travel in the arenas when giannis, cj or joel, or anyone does it in the games.

This was not allow when I was growing up playing basketball. Back in the 90s, refs would called this a travel all the times.

i found it in the WNBA rulebook that its allowed from 2001, cant confirm for other levels yet, but i know the nba had the same rule.
https://www.wnba.com/archive/wnba/analysis/rule_ten.html
until 2018 though, the only level of play that allowed the gather step was the nba though. which means that most spin gathers should have been illegal unless the ball was only gathered on the last step. I think that rule difference is the biggest pain point for fans as the rules they grew up with are not what the nba is about and it looks like players are just blatantly travelling. The foul mechanics are different as well including how much contact there is supposed to be in certain positions and flagrant fouls having nothing to do with intent anymore.... its just a bunch of crap that they should probably educate the broadcast crews on so they can educate fans like how hubie brown and mike fratello used to try to do.

the step through though. I used it all through high school because its a common move in womens basketball and my coach was a woman and taught it. youre probably almost ten years older than me though so im not totally sure, but I will find the oldest refs i can and ask them about what the rules were like in 98

[dhsilv2]

I was more thinking national broadcasters, not the local guys. Local guys have always been pretty pretty bad. Maybe a bias as I've never lived in a place where there was a "local" broadcast" (certainly watch them today with the internet being a thing), but I tend to forget all about those in terms of influencing the "greater" nba fan base. Local games always have fans thinking things went against them no matter what anyway. Fans are after all by the very definition of the word, irrational.

Yeah thats big true, like when when the broadcast has a bunch of people who coached and/or played and they dont know the rules, I think it hurts the game, especially on a national level more, youre right.

This example i think encapsulates what im talking about

Watch on YouTube

What she did has been allowed for the 25 years ive been involved in basketball. people still believe you cant do this and yell travel in the arenas when giannis, cj or joel, or anyone does it in the games.

This was not allow when I was growing up playing basketball. Back in the 90s, refs would called this a travel all the times.

You were in the nba as a kid?

[dhsilv2]

Not sure what's there to overturn.

The rule changes made it pretty clear that any attempt to draw a foul that results in displacing or dislodging a player will be ruled an offensive foul.

That's a jump shot. That is where most players land. That is not jumping into the player. Not only that, he doesn't foul him in any way on the offensive side unless his hand gets him on his follow through which is just lol. It's a horrible call.

After watching that clip, Lonzo fell down intentionally for no legitimate reason, and then directs his fall towards the defenders' knees. That's dangerous and was rightly called an offensive foul, imo.

If there's no contact....

[dhsilv2]

Can you specify when you did know what a foul was? You act like there was consistency last year when there was not

Last year was by far more consistent...

[InsideInfo]

Pause it at 11 second mark. It actually looks like the defender possible hits lonzo on the arm an knocks him off balance causing him to fall at that angle. Seems very odd to me that he would just fall and then roll for no reason at all other than looking for a foul.

Its also super fkn weird that the NBA doesnt give any other view of this play. All of the sky cameras and different angles they have... on a play that was reviewed. This is the only angle they ever showed. Sketchy if you ask me.

Yes, Ball holds his arm and yes it is hit, but it's also clear as day that the contact isn't what's causing him to go the ground.

He does it all on his own to embellish contact and to draw a pre 2021 era foul.

Clear as day? Not sure what replay you are watching but there is nothing clear as day about this replay.

Lonzo ball has taken 8 free throws in 21 games this year and shot 146 threes. Not sure if you have ever consistently watched him play, but he never does the kind of thing you are saying. Ive watched 20 of the bulls 21 games this year and to my knowledge this is the only time he has been called for an offensive foul while shooting a jump shot.

By the time the ref blows the whistle, the shot has already hit the rim. It's crazy to call an offensive foul like that towards the end of a close game.

[HotelVitale]

Maybe. At least that's what I usually figure happens. Through 20 games, however, it seems to be a trend in Timberwolves games that finally reached a boiling point Saturday. Is it how they play? The simple nature of things for a lousy franchise who hasn't earned "respect" from the whistle yet? A combination? Or something else entirely.
Consider:
- Timberwolves opponents are #1 in FTA
- Timberwolves are #25 in FTA

Joel Embiid took 21 FTA the other night.
- Anthony Edwards has taken 21 FTA in his last 10 games combined.

So the Wolves are both the most likely to foul. And one of the least likely to be fouled. Either the coach needs to change the style a bit. Or, the Wolves have to do better. Or, the Wolves just have to be patient until they're deemed "good" enough. Or, it's ok for people to actually notice the discrepancy. Your call.

I haven't watched carefully enough to say, but statistically speaking it's 100% fully normal for some team to end up like this. And it makes sense given their personnel--D Lo, Beasley, and Edwards are their perimeter creators and all of them are very poor at getting to the line, and KAT's perimeter-oriented game makes him one of the least FT-reliant high-scoring bigs around. Plus guys like Beverly and McDaniels never get to the line. On the other end, they start a handful of poor defenders and thus rely on young, foul-happy guys like McDaniels, Vanderbilt, Reid, and Okogie for rim protection and energy. It makes sense they'd end ip that way.

You're right that they could try to correct that some. Edwards in particular should be able to learn how to draw FTs better, and KAT could lean more into that part of his game (esp given his constant shooting threat).

Yeah. That's probably some of it. Personally I think it's a combination of several things. Towns' FTA are down about 25%... only his rookie season was lower. But he's not shooting more three pointers. I wouldn't think the new rules would really affect a guy like him who still relies on posting up a lot. But it must be. He does flail and flop a lot as he almost seems out of control, which leads to way too many offensive fouls and incessant whining. Anthony Edwards is tied for 9th in FGA... he comes in at #60 for FTA. In an amusing anecdote, former Timberwolves mainstays, Andrew Wiggins and Ricky Rubio, are both shooting more FTA than Edwards. Some of that is probably that Edwards is still young and either settles a lot or hasn't figured out how to draw fouls yet. Or, maybe he hasn't "earned" the whistle yet. Or again, some combination.

[Note: The Wolves were 7th in FTA last season.]

Interesting, though I just looked it up and those margins are THIN. The Wolves were 7th in FTs per game, but only 2 attempts per game separate them from the 23rd spot. Seems like 2 FTs per game could easily be noise, or the product of a small change in play.

[cupcakesnake]

every time I read this title on the first page all I think of is this scene from "i think you should leave"

[AbeVigodaLive]

I haven't watched carefully enough to say, but statistically speaking it's 100% fully normal for some team to end up like this. And it makes sense given their personnel--D Lo, Beasley, and Edwards are their perimeter creators and all of them are very poor at getting to the line, and KAT's perimeter-oriented game makes him one of the least FT-reliant high-scoring bigs around. Plus guys like Beverly and McDaniels never get to the line. On the other end, they start a handful of poor defenders and thus rely on young, foul-happy guys like McDaniels, Vanderbilt, Reid, and Okogie for rim protection and energy. It makes sense they'd end ip that way.

You're right that they could try to correct that some. Edwards in particular should be able to learn how to draw FTs better, and KAT could lean more into that part of his game (esp given his constant shooting threat).

Yeah. That's probably some of it. Personally I think it's a combination of several things. Towns' FTA are down about 25%... only his rookie season was lower. But he's not shooting more three pointers. I wouldn't think the new rules would really affect a guy like him who still relies on posting up a lot. But it must be. He does flail and flop a lot as he almost seems out of control, which leads to way too many offensive fouls and incessant whining. Anthony Edwards is tied for 9th in FGA... he comes in at #60 for FTA. In an amusing anecdote, former Timberwolves mainstays, Andrew Wiggins and Ricky Rubio, are both shooting more FTA than Edwards. Some of that is probably that Edwards is still young and either settles a lot or hasn't figured out how to draw fouls yet. Or, maybe he hasn't "earned" the whistle yet. Or again, some combination.

[Note: The Wolves were 7th in FTA last season.]

Interesting, though I just looked it up and those margins are THIN. The Wolves were 7th in FTs per game, but only 2 attempts per game separate them from the 23rd spot. Seems like 2 FTs per game could easily be noise, or the product of a small change in play.

Could be a style of play thing... at least defensively. The Wolves are more engaged and playing a more aggressive style.

As a result, their opponents are shooting more free throws this season than last season despite the new rules... and MN struggled to keep opponents off the line last year, too (#26 in the league).

On the flip side... Minnesota is shooting 5 fewer attempts per game than last season.

Hard to say what it is for sure... but I wouldn't dismiss even 2 extra attempts per game like they're meaningless. That's the sort of margin that can definitely make a multi-game difference in a playoff chase.

And it's those irregularities in the margins that has the Wolves reaching out to the NBA to try to figure out why it's happening.

[Quentin]

How to draw a foul? Someone explain. By acting more? By holding your line and not veering?? By making friends with the referee? I've seen countless hacks on replay in front of refs and they see it too but no whistle. If the game is too fast for them, then the NBA needs to do something to slow it down "for them". Games are being decided by these guys and that's wrong.

[blitz41]

Id almost go as far to say that we've never really known what fouls will be called season to season, game to game, and even play to play.

Basketball is fundamentally a non contact sport, but whats happened over the decades is players kept pushing the limit around what contact refs have to call and the refs and orgs have allowed it to happen. By the time we got the 90s the physicality was just out of control compared to what the game was concieved as. Like imagine the Jordan rules being applied towards something like soccer/football, with guys going 2 feet or closelining a messi or ronaldo anytime they touch a ball.

Now we are at a point where the genie is out of the bottle. I can guarantee if we went by the letter of the law you can call a foul on damn near every nba play, but no one wants to watch a game like that and so we are left with an ad hoc approach where refs are trying to call the legit fouls, balance the rule fouls and still have the game be entertaining

[ZombieKilla]

If someone on the Lakers, Nets or Warriors does it:
It’s not a foul.
If someone does it to the Lakers, Nets or Warriors:
It’s a foul.
Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

- Adam Silver

[Quentin]

Id almost go as far to say that we've never really known what fouls will be called season to season, game to game, and even play to play.

Basketball is fundamentally a non contact sport, but whats happened over the decades is players kept pushing the limit around what contact refs have to call and the refs and orgs have allowed it to happen. By the time we got the 90s the physicality was just out of control compared to what the game was concieved as. Like imagine the Jordan rules being applied towards something like soccer/football, with guys going 2 feet or closelining a messi or ronaldo anytime they touch a ball.

Now we are at a point where the genie is out of the bottle. I can guarantee if we went by the letter of the law you can call a foul on damn near every nba play, but no one wants to watch a game like that and so we are left with an ad hoc approach where refs are trying to call the legit fouls, balance the rule fouls and still have the game be entertaining

As long as it's called consistently, it's fine. Game to game, team vs team, ref vs ref it hasn't been. It's really frustrating. Something needs to be simplified to make it easier to accept from a fan view.

[Harry Garris]

The quality of reffing is an issue that people are very emotionally tied to, so regardless of how good of a job they are doing relative to how good they could be doing, people are always going to think that NBA refs are terrible and failing at every aspect.

The thing that's completely nonsensical is as fans our standards for how good reffing "should" be is perfection. And that's obviously not attainable with human refs, or anytime soon even with our best technology without slowing the game down to a snail's pace and having constant stoppages

I'd actually like to see what a perfectly refereed game looks like to the RealGM crowd. Because if the referees call a legit foul on one team, then the fans of the other team are still going to be pissed. Especially if it's a "50-50" call where it could go either way. Fouls on shot attempts are just one part of refereeing. There's a million other things that are happening at the exact same time that get 1% of the scrutiny from fans.

As someone who watches a ton of high school and college basketball, NBA refs are the best of the best who get 90% of calls right. No human is ever going to get every call right, but NBA refs do a great job.

Yeah I was a college basketball fan before I was a NBA fan so the refs in the pros seem awesome by comparison.