Lowest arguable ranking for Kobe?

[Caped Crusader]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs til they got Pau. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

*quoting before the edit*

Pau only joined the lakers in 2008. Kobe led the lakers with smush parker and kwame brown to the playoffs in 2006 and 2007.... took your suns 7 games to defeat them in 2006

I was just going off the top of my head so they missed the playoffs once when shaq left and were first round exits until pau... W.e same thing... The argument can still be made that Shaq and Pau carried.

At least man up to your mistake. Justifying it and then saying "whatever" is not owning up. What a poor attitude.

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[Godymas]

1x MVP, 2x FMVP, multiple years of All NBA and All Defense..

is it weird to say I would still feel uncomfortable ranking him below Steph Curry? He has to be ranked above Steph Curry, literally defense alone along with the accolades, there is just no way Curry could be above Kobe all time. So that is my lowest possible ranking of Kobe, right above Steph Curry.

[turnaroundJ]

There is no way in hell KG, D Rob, Dirk, Oscar, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Wade should be ranked higher than Kobe. As a player no, career-wise no. Even if you halved Kobe's career he would be competitive with those guys. Even KD, Giannis, Curry would be in that tier or higher.

Even comparing to Hakeem, for example. Who for me is the most questionable pick of the typical "Top 10 GOAT" lists on forums. Kobe as number 24 has almost the same resume. 2 finals MVPs, an MVP, All NBA 1sts, All D 1sts, etc. etc. Then when you add his career as number 8 it's extremely competitive or better. No one reveres any of these guys like they do Kobe either. How many dominant western conference playoff runs did he have since 2000? Being carried by someone doesn't make sense anyway because the Top 20-30 GOAT list is probably full of players who have played on extremely stacked teams. Especially MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Bill, Magic, etc. Not sure why this is such an argument against Kobe.

Anyway my answer is Top 8-12, reasonably. Top 13-16 arguably.

[Kurt Heimlich]

MJ KAJ Lebron Magic Russell Wilt Bird Steph Duncan would be my tier that I do believe do rank higher than Kobe.

Hakeem Shaq Oscar KD Jerry West are probably the tier that I guess you could argue whom is better, some having better arguments than others. Giannis has a shot eventually but not yet.

Lowest possible: 15-16.
Most accurate range: 9-13

[ropjhk]

I say he is at least in the top 15. I rate Kobe to be a tier above Dirk, Garnett and Barkley.

[CLosP]

First off, shout out Pau Gasol. Before he joined Kobe, he wasn’t looked at in the same category as Duncan/KG/Dirk but now he carried Kobe lol. Good for him getting some love even it is absolutely ridiculous. Also, I see a lot of posts just looking at basketball-reference.com and sorting one column and using it as the final say so to speak. If you didn’t watch him just say so lol. It would be very hard to argue he’s outside of the top 15-20. Anything lower than that, well just say you didn’t like him personally. Cherry picking stats for a player one year comparing it to another player who was playing twenty years later is ridiculous.

[Lalouie]

about the same as lebron

[Stalwart]

If we drafting with perfect hindsight is Kobe still on the board after 11 picks?

MJ, Kareem, LBJ, Wilt, Duncan, the MagicBird (they so connected that people have to post their names next to each other), Shaq,

Then we talking Hakeem, Russell, Curry and Kobe right before you get to the KDs and Giannis (assume dude gonna get more hardware)


If no one respects the triple dub anymore than the Big O not coming if westbrook not gonna be there.


I legit don’t know If the big O was just that time periods this years Westbrook - It’s the problem with stats for players you never saw.

If it’s just stats Wilt is the Goat with a good ole 50pt & 25 reb. Do that now and we not even talking about jordan ever again

If we expect these guys to all play against each other than the 60s guys are out. The centers will drop due to the modern playstyle. That leaves MJ, Lebron, Magic, Bird. Perhaps you take Curry before Kobe. After that there is no one else.

[MarcusBrody]

I have Kobe in the 12-15 range.

But ok...let me see here. Winning matters but only in the right context (we'll get there). Peak over all else. And I'm going to skew towards using stats based on the regular season. I'll bias the stat analysis in a couple of key ways. Passing is more scalable than scoring. Defense is missed in stats when the player is a rim protector and/or elite off ball and all else equal defense trumps scoring.

Base line - Kobe's peak WS and VORP. 15.3 (.224) 8.0 (7.6)

Guys i'm just saying peaked higher and not going to dig into.

MJ, Lebron, CP3, Dirk, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, KG, Duncan, O'neal, Curry, Giannis, KD, Harden (I don't like myself), Robinson, Wilt, Russell, West, Oscar.

OK we have 19 guys who I can make pretty easy stats cases on just better peak box metrics.

So can I use my bias methods or maybe look at some short careers?

Walton? - Peak BPM tops Kobe's. Elite passing big man and considered by some at his peak to be in the discussion as a top 5 all time defender. I think he passes the smell test here.

Jokic? - Sure stats are better. Kinda like Harden above, I don't feel right doing it yet, but to be consistent he has to move up.
Mikan? - not sure how to even use era stats with him, but lets just assume he passes this test
Karl? - Really great passing big man and likely would have had better stats if stockton wasn't running that show. Peak VORP and BPM and WS all work here. OK
Walt Frazier - we don't get VORP stats for his best years but he does peak higher in WS and WS/48. He was an elite defender at the guard and passer. I'd never rank him this high but ok.
Pettit - doesn't pass on peak WS but has 2 near equal years with a higher WS/48. lets throw him in.
Stockton - actually fits the entire criteria which is weird and not expected


Moses? - higher peak in WS and he has a nice peak WS/48 at .248. BPM and VORP don't do it. He doesn't fit any of my bias criteria. Sorry Moses.
Rose? - nope
Hondo? - here again the stats won't support it but MVP + he fits the bias criteria. Still passing
Brand - this is one many would be shocked to even realize but his 06 season was THAT good, we can consider him. But passing
Westbrook - i just refuse lol

Anyway this gets us to 26th as I can't waste more time looking for any outlier seasons. But this at least gives a consistent method that could move Kobe near the 30 spot.

edit - forgot Wade

This is a good post and similar to how I thought about it (down to initially forgetting Wade and having to edit). You laid out a reasonable criteria for ranking players and with it you can see that Kobe might fall to the mid-20s. Now, we can say it isn't the BEST criteria (as you do when you put him 12-15th, which is probably where I would as well), but you could easily craft an argument for it that a person would have to credit as "reasonable" even if they then presented a different argument.

So that fits the definition of the thread to me. This isn't the best range to put Kobe, but it's the lowest that he could be reasonably placed.

[dhsilv2]

First off, shout out Pau Gasol. Before he joined Kobe, he wasn’t looked at in the same category as Duncan/KG/Dirk but now he carried Kobe lol. Good for him getting some love even it is absolutely ridiculous. Also, I see a lot of posts just looking at basketball-reference.com and sorting one column and using it as the final say so to speak. If you didn’t watch him just say so lol. It would be very hard to argue he’s outside of the top 15-20. Anything lower than that, well just say you didn’t like him personally. Cherry picking stats for a player one year comparing it to another player who was playing twenty years later is ridiculous.

Did someone say this wasn't ultimately a ridiculous exercise? That's the point..

[Jadoogar]

yea 15th is reasonable. I don't have him top 10 but there's no way he's below 15

[Flash4thewin]

20s sounds fair. Now if one where to bring up character issues then depending on your criteria he will drop accordingly

[dhsilv2]

Kinda mind blowing how many people believe that completely changing all their views of ranking couldn't move someone from "reasonably 15th" to 25th. 10 spots on a list like this isn't a meaningful move...

[Duffman100]

I have him top 15. Maybe you could argue just outside the top 20, but I think that would be a tough argument to make.

[Lost Angel]

he's top 10 for me, imagine an all time NBA draft and you selected KG over him. Hate Kobe all you want but he's top 10 no doubt

[Ambrose]

I think Kobe has a wide range. If you really value longevity and team success I could see someone reasonably putting him at like 7. If you're someone who focuses more heavily on peak and impact he's going to fall. I could see different criteria giving him a range of 7-20ish, so 20 would be my answer to the thread. I have him like 11-13th.

[theforumblue]

kinda funny because kobe is a guy whose ranking is definitely gonna continue to drop. there are still too many people who actually watched him play at a very high level in the playoffs. as more of those voices die down he'll get comfortably below 20 and who knows where he'll end up settling. sprinkle in some new players, chop up the numbers little differently, and i'm guessing he drops to mid 20s.

[Son Goku 25]

Lowest would be top 12

[Woodsanity]

For me he is anywhere from top 8-12. I can see a case for top 15 and maybe as low as top 20 if you go overboard. But realistically not lower than top 15

[SpreeChokeJob]

If we drafting with perfect hindsight is Kobe still on the board after 11 picks?

MJ, Kareem, LBJ, Wilt, Duncan, the MagicBird (they so connected that people have to post their names next to each other), Shaq,

Then we talking Hakeem, Russell, Curry and Kobe right before you get to the KDs and Giannis (assume dude gonna get more hardware)


If no one respects the triple dub anymore than the Big O not coming if westbrook not gonna be there.


I legit don’t know If the big O was just that time periods this years Westbrook - It’s the problem with stats for players you never saw.

If it’s just stats Wilt is the Goat with a good ole 50pt & 25 reb. Do that now and we not even talking about jordan ever again

If we expect these guys to all play against each other than the 60s guys are out. The centers will drop due to the modern playstyle. That leaves MJ, Lebron, Magic, Bird. Perhaps you take Curry before Kobe. After that there is no one else.

I take Curry, Hakeem, KD, and Giannis over Kobe. Not for accomplishments but for ability. Had he been drafted by some other team other than the Lakers, I don’t see him doing more than these players did on some crap teams without the same recruiting power.