Can a case be made that Larry Bird was the GOAT ?

[Cavsfansince84]

Well, why don't we apply the same logic to Tim Duncan too? Magic and Kareem are considered greater than Kobe and Shaq, right? Larry went up against Magic and Kareem and also had inferior depth on his Celtics teams. Duncan went up against Kobe and Shaq but had superior depth on his Spurs teams. After Kobe got rolling in 1999-2000, Duncan was 1-3 against them in the playoffs, only winning in 2002-03 when Shaq become way too fat, started feuding with Kobe and lost his previous mobility after toe surgery (see picture below, I'm not making this up, that is Shaq's toe in 2002-03).



In 2002-03, Derek Fisher was the 3rd most used player on the Lakers. The same Derek Fisher who left LA in 2004-05 to join GSW, where he was the back-up to the Spurs previous back-up PG, Speedy Claxton. In 2002-03, Robert Horry was the 4th most used player on the Lakers. The same Robert Horry who left LA in 2003-04 to join the Spurs, where he was more appropriately their 7th most used player because of the Spurs quality of depth.

How come we gloss over these things and never highlight them with Tim Duncan but nobody else gets free passes?

That's part of the point though, is I am not making a point about Duncan's place in history based on the Lakers and Bird never went up against prime Kareem either while Duncan was going against peak Shaq and was also injured in 2000 so missed that series. Also, its not like Duncan had prime Manu and Parker from 2000-2004 either.

[LAL1947]

Mount Rushmore of the NBA:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Wilt Chamberlain (still owns the record books)
3) Lebron James (hate putting him up here but he deserves it)
4) Larry Bird

I can't put Kareem in there because he didn't win anything between 1970-71 and 1979-80, EIGHT whole seasons, until Magic joined him. Kareem was in his prime during that time (age 24-32) and should have been the primary beneficiary of two things during that time period: 1) The expansion and 2) Many stars leaving to play in the ABA.

Can't put Magic in there either because Larry was better than Magic until his back got hurt.

[SNPA]

Mount Rushmore of the NBA:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Wilt Chamberlain (still owns the record books)
3) Lebron James (hate putting him up here but he deserves it)
4) Larry Bird

I can't put Kareem in there because he didn't win anything between 1970-71 and 1979-80, NINE whole seasons. He should have been the primary beneficiary of two things during that time period: 1) The expansion and 2) Many stars leaving to play in the ABA... yet won nothing until Magic Johnson arrived. Can't put Magic in there either because Larry was better than Magic until his back got hurt.

Bravo. This is a super impressive post from someone with LAL in his/her handle.

[LAL1947]

Bravo. This is a super impressive post from someone with LAL in his/her handle.

Thank you. I'm learning to be objective, which is really hard when you have to leave out players you like or from your favorite team.

[DroseReturnChi]

bird could have been goat if he was born in this era and played earlier than his debut.
that era was one of the worst for him curry would have been barely a starter given that bird is not a worse shooter.
you give bird 10 shots open 3s he avges 30pts easily. his game would be a worse playmaking luka with a 3. this kind of player with longevity would easily destroy lebron he would have struggled to win rings against bird.

[Sofia]

MJ was stat padding vs. 86 Celtics?? Lol that's a new one. I guess Lebron was just stat padding vs. 17 Warriors.

I don’t think he was, but I also didn’t think Lebron was stat padding by winning first round series either. Was just curious if those same posters would be consistent…

I was not one of those posters and I don't think Lebron is a stat padder.

Oh I wasn’t saying it was you, I was just piggy backing your comment… some of them had posted in this thread.

[SNPA]

If you think the GOAT should be peak, all around player…he absolutely has a case.

[BostonCouchGM]

A case? Yeah. But even I, a complete fanboy apologist, can’t argue too hard that MJ is better. If only because his elite athleticism allowed him to do things Bird couldn’t like be an elite defender and play above the rim. But ONLY MJ would I concede is better. No other player has a better combination of shooting, rebounding, defense, BBIQ, and clutch. Before injuring his back he finished top 3 in MVP (winning three straight) 8 straight years in the leagues best decade, with its best teams and players ever. Kareem, Moses, Dr J, MJ, Magic, Hakeem were his contemporaries and he was the best of them all. His injuries prevented longevity otherwise him being top 3 or even in the GOAT convo would be a given. Easily best SF ever and that isn’t up for debate

[70sFan]

I guess you can force criteria that would put him around the top, but I don't think it's natural way of evaluating the greatest players.

In my opinion, there are only 4 legit GOAT candidates: Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan and LeBron James. These 4 simply have to be considered in any GOAT talks and the choice between them simply depends on your basketball preferences. You can make a legit case for all of them and it wouldn't be artifical one.

I do think some players from the lower part of my top ten like Wilt, Duncan or Magic (and maybe Bird as well) could be argued into that group, but their cases aren't strong enough for me.

[Lalouie]

i can't ,,,,and he's my 4/5 with magic depending on what side of the bed i wake up on

[Pennebaker]

He didn't play long enough unfortunately. He was done after his 9th season. He had a very bright peak but there wasn't enough of it.

[Ayatollahmugsy]

Larry Bird was great, but no. He said himself in the 1980s that Michael Jordan was the best player in the league. You can make a case for him as No. 2, maybe. You could argue that his peak was better than LeBron's, though he had far less longevity. I think most people would have Bird in the top 10 if not top 5, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Statlanta]

I don't think Larry Bird can make a case for GOAT (that is MJ). However, he has a strong case to be on the Mount Rushmore of Basketball and is on mine. He is becoming criminally under-rated by fans who are forgetting just how good he was... and are forgetting how stacked the teams were that his team beat. There are even people who now say that the 1980s Celtics were more stacked than the Lakers or 76ers , say what?

The problem is though that he went 1-2 vs those Sixers teams(while not even facing the best Sixer team) and 1-2 vs the Lakers. Having said that, I am higher on Bird than most people and have him at about 7-8 right there with Magic.

Well, why don't we apply the same logic to Tim Duncan too? Magic and Kareem are considered greater than Kobe and Shaq, right? Larry went up against Magic and Kareem and also had inferior depth on his Celtics teams. Duncan went up against Kobe and Shaq but had superior depth on his Spurs teams. After Kobe got rolling in 1999-2000, Duncan was 1-3 against them in the playoffs, only winning in 2002-03 when Shaq become way too fat, started feuding with Kobe and lost his previous mobility after toe surgery (see picture below, I'm not making this up, that is Shaq's toe in 2002-03).



In 2002-03, Derek Fisher was the 3rd most used player on the Lakers. The same Derek Fisher who left LA in 2004-05 to join GSW, where he was the back-up to the Spurs previous back-up PG, Speedy Claxton. In 2002-03, Robert Horry was the 4th most used player on the Lakers. The same Robert Horry who left LA in 2003-04 to join the Spurs, where he was more appropriately their 7th most used player because of the Spurs quality of depth.

How come we gloss over these things and never highlight them with Tim Duncan but nobody else gets free passes?

Tim Duncan doesn’t get a free pass and if he did it was because we don’t gloss over the truth.

“I’m not making this up” sure but you are masquerading the truth.

That is Shaq’s foot 6 years after he retired. I know this because I watched the telecast he showed his foot. It was May 25th, 2017, Kyrie’s last ECF game.

Per Ernie at the very start of the clip

https://youtu.be/1TmPnPtJZ_E

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/05/31/shaq-shauille-oneal-feet

[OdomFan]

I'd say he has a case over many of the other candidates including Lebron James and some others outside of the longevity argument, but those guys also have cases over him due to Birds injury that ended his career sooner than many of us would have liked, so yeah. Those guys let alone Michael Jordan will likely always be more than Bird in these conversations thanks in part to that unfortunate situation.

Bird does have a really strong argument for greatest rookie of all time though, and early career in general. If only Bird could have had the chance to work with the kind of miracle medical staff that Grant Hill was blessed to have over in Phoenix for a few years that kept him playing reasonably well a lot longer. With someone like Larry Birds Basketball IQ and shooting ability he very well would still play at a high level into the 90s...ah well.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Unfortunately... No.

At least not using the statistics available to us — and widely used — today. But we can definitely hype Basketball Jesus using narratives, conjecture, bad faith talking points and what-of scenarios.

He was a truly transcendent player who could have carved out an even greater resume sans some unfortunate events.



[Note: Obviously, there are Bird guys who overhype him. Likewise, I think many fans who never saw him play or ignore context about Bird and the NBA at the time, undervalue him.]

[BK_2020]

Hell no, KD's 34 year old season is better than Larry Bird's MVP seasons.

[CumberlandPosey]

only case can be made if you leave out any numbers.if you make a case on aesthetics,fundamentals,gamesmanship,floor game and game-within-the-game etc you can easily have larry bird as THE best basketball player ever.without any doubt.healthy focused bird is just too scary...

[JRoy]

Bird is one of the all time greats, but there are a few players even greater.

That’s not a knock on Bird, he’s a top 10 all time guy. Some might argue top 5.

[Curmudgeon]

No. Bill Russell is the GOAT.

[Fencer reregistered]

He toyed with people like no other in the modern era. What other player can just decide to not shoot with their dominant hand for an entire game and just dominate anyway? Most players, even all time greats, if they tried this they very likely abandon it or look silly. Just crazy stuff.

That story is a LITTLE overblown, if an article I checked some months ago is to be trusted. About half his shots in the famous game were actually right-handed, especially when the game got close.