Karl Malone has a case for top 10 ever and best PF ever

[Cactus Jack]

He's not even close to top-10. He never won a title, despite being on loaded teams.

Players unquestionably better than him include:

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Steph, Magic, Bird, KD, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Wade, Dirk. I'd put KG ahead of him as well as he actually won a title. He's not even a lock for top-20 as there are a ton of other guys who had a similar impact to him (DRob, Pippen, Harden, CP3, Stockton, etc.). And that's not even including current young guys who will almost certainly end up having better careers than him (Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Embiid, etc.).

I think you're being way too harsh.

There are several greats who never won a title in part due to MJ/Bulls. But likely would have in most other era's.

KG was great. But Karl's stats & longevity are superior. Throw out the title argument for a second. He was just a better player.

[LAL1947]

He's not even close to top-10. He never won a title, despite being on loaded teams.

Players unquestionably better than him include:

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Steph, Magic, Bird, KD, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Wade, Dirk. I'd put KG ahead of him as well as he actually won a title. He's not even a lock for top-20 as there are a ton of other guys who had a similar impact to him (DRob, Pippen, Harden, CP3, Stockton, etc.). And that's not even including current young guys who will almost certainly end up having better careers than him (Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Embiid, etc.).

I think you're being way too harsh.

There are several greats who never won a title in part due to MJ/Bulls. But likely would have in most other era's.

KG was great. But Karl's stats & longevity are superior. Throw out the title argument for a second. He was just a better player.

Funnily enough, he lists Duncan and Kareem quite high up in his list (assuming it's in some sort of an order)... two players who are more known for their longevity rather than their peaks or flash... yet lists Dwayne Wade higher than Karl Malone despite Malone being greater for longer.

[Petergrifindor]

Karl Malone was a way better player than Kevin Garnett

[dakomish23]

He's easily one of the most underrated players on this board and in general, and maybe the most underrated, and I think it's mainly because people just dont like him cuz he was a dirty player and apparently quite the creep in his personal life.
Imo he's the 2nd best PF ever only slightly behind Timmy because of Duncan's defensive value, but even that is closer than most people recognize.

Duncan is arguably one of the best big men defenders of all time. How is Malone’s value on defense close to Duncan’s “than most people recognize”

[Pennebaker]

Karl Malone is an alltime great and definitely a top 20 player in history, I think most definitely top 15 but he seems to never be mentioned in the top 10. Kevin Garnett, an alltime great himself, is rated highly on here, and rather justifiably, and seems to be rated ahead of Malone. Duncan is listed very often as top 10 ever and is almost unanimously rated as the best PF ever.

Karl Malone has a case for being better than both and it can be argued that he quite clearly is better than both.

The numbers are strong for Malone:
1476gms, 25pts, 51.6fg%, 74.2ft%, 10.1reb, 3.6ast, 1.4stl, 0.8blk - 19yrs, ages 22 to 40.
234.6WS, 99VORP

Kevin Garnett:
1462gms, 17.8pts, 49.7fg%, 78.9ft%, 10reb, 3.7ast, 1.3stl, 1.4blk - ages 19 to 39.
191.4WS, 96.9VORP

Tim Duncan:
1392gms, 19pts, 50.6fg%, 69.6ft%, 10.8reb, 3ast, 0.7stl, 2.2blk, ages 21 to 39.
206.4WS, 91.1VORP

Most impressive is that Garnett's best season, his mvp 2004, he averaged 24.2pts, less than Malone did for his whole career. Duncan's highest scoring season his mvp 2002, he averaged 25.5pts, half a point higher than Malone's career average.

Malone was more consistent for a longer period in his career, definitely a longer prime. He wasn't quite the defender the other two are but made multiple alldefense teams in a big man heavy era with many very good defenders.



Does Karl Malone have a real case for top 10 ever and does he have a case for best PF ever?

I see a bunch of numbers up there but where is the number of rings?

How can Karl Malone play for 40 years and never win a ring? I'm certainly not going to reward him for that. To me his longevity coupled with his lack of playoff success is a red flag.

[AussieBuck]

Duncan was a C (obviously better too) and KG was clearly better. This is silly. Imagine Kg with one of the GOAT PGs for his career instead of the garbarge he dealt with pre-celtics.

[BarbaGrizz]

The lack of a ring hurts Malone (and Stockton) immensely

[CIN-C-STAR]

He's easily one of the most underrated players on this board and in general, and maybe the most underrated, and I think it's mainly because people just dont like him cuz he was a dirty player and apparently quite the creep in his personal life.
Imo he's the 2nd best PF ever only slightly behind Timmy because of Duncan's defensive value, but even that is closer than most people recognize.

Duncan is arguably one of the best big men defenders of all time. How is Malone’s value on defense close to Duncan’s “than most people recognize”

Worded poorly, but meant that the overall gap between Duncan and Malone is closer than most people recognize.
Agreed Duncan is a GOAT tier defender.

[Mickey8]

Let’s never compare this trash to Duncan ever again. Ok thanks

He was the great player, I dont know about his personal life.

[FJS]

Karl Malone is an alltime great and definitely a top 20 player in history, I think most definitely top 15 but he seems to never be mentioned in the top 10. Kevin Garnett, an alltime great himself, is rated highly on here, and rather justifiably, and seems to be rated ahead of Malone. Duncan is listed very often as top 10 ever and is almost unanimously rated as the best PF ever.

Karl Malone has a case for being better than both and it can be argued that he quite clearly is better than both.

The numbers are strong for Malone:
1476gms, 25pts, 51.6fg%, 74.2ft%, 10.1reb, 3.6ast, 1.4stl, 0.8blk - 19yrs, ages 22 to 40.
234.6WS, 99VORP

Kevin Garnett:
1462gms, 17.8pts, 49.7fg%, 78.9ft%, 10reb, 3.7ast, 1.3stl, 1.4blk - ages 19 to 39.
191.4WS, 96.9VORP

Tim Duncan:
1392gms, 19pts, 50.6fg%, 69.6ft%, 10.8reb, 3ast, 0.7stl, 2.2blk, ages 21 to 39.
206.4WS, 91.1VORP

Most impressive is that Garnett's best season, his mvp 2004, he averaged 24.2pts, less than Malone did for his whole career. Duncan's highest scoring season his mvp 2002, he averaged 25.5pts, half a point higher than Malone's career average.

Malone was more consistent for a longer period in his career, definitely a longer prime. He wasn't quite the defender the other two are but made multiple alldefense teams in a big man heavy era with many very good defenders.



Does Karl Malone have a real case for top 10 ever and does he have a case for best PF ever?

I see a bunch of numbers up there but where is the number of rings?

How can Karl Malone play for 40 years and never win a ring? I'm certainly not going to reward him for that. To me his longevity coupled with his lack of playoff success is a red flag.

He played 3 finals and 6 WCF, 2 and 5 if you only count Jazz seasons.
KG played 2 finals, 1 WCF and 3 ECF.
Dirk Played 2 finals, 3 WCF
Barkley 1 finals, 1 ECF (as a rookie), 2 WCF
Duncan played 6 finals, and 9 WCF.

So, you can't like Karl, but to say he did not have success in playoffs is not true. He did not win a ring, but he was playing more finals or Conference finals than any other great PF not named Tim Duncan (and if you consider PF Tim Duncan)

[euroleague]

Karl also had the benefit of playing with one of the all time great PGs of the 20th century, which certainly inflated some of his offensive stats in Utah.

Watch on YouTube

Look at this highlight reel of Malone's top plays. 90% is just him receiving a pass and finishing strong at the rim. He lacked the finesse and overall scoring prowess of Hakeem, Garnett, Dirk or Duncan. His footwork is absolutely atrocious.

At 260 pounds, he had the size and strength of a center and then expanded his mid range game out to 15 feet. Combine that with being the perfect roll man for the PnR opposite Stockton and it explains why he was so difficult to cover. Too big and strong for forwards to cover -- too quick and agile for plodding Centers.

Also, raw offensive numbers between the 3 players is a bit unfair considering the differences in eras and caliber of teammates Malone and Duncan had over KG.

You’re really judging his play based off a highlight reel?

Malone was an elite iso scorer and regularly dominated players in iso, including Rodman, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan.

His turn around long range jumper (it was a patented fadeaway shot, not a catch and shoot) clocked in at 54% FG in the range of 16feet-3P during his MVP year at age 33. That’s better than Kevin Durant or Chris Paul from long midrange except for their 2 career best seasons, and he played 20 games more than them in each season.

[dhsilv2]

He's not even close to top-10. He never won a title, despite being on loaded teams.

Players unquestionably better than him include:

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Steph, Magic, Bird, KD, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Wade, Dirk. I'd put KG ahead of him as well as he actually won a title. He's not even a lock for top-20 as there are a ton of other guys who had a similar impact to him (DRob, Pippen, Harden, CP3, Stockton, etc.). And that's not even including current young guys who will almost certainly end up having better careers than him (Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Embiid, etc.).

I think you're being way too harsh.

There are several greats who never won a title in part due to MJ/Bulls. But likely would have in most other era's.

KG was great. But Karl's stats & longevity are superior. Throw out the title argument for a second. He was just a better player.

He wasn't a better player. I don't think there's any debate there. KG was a massively better defender and in our roughly 25 year RAPM data era only really Curry and Lebron peaked at KG's level. I'd guess the terrible wolves teams might skew this some, but Malone was never at that level.

If you want to look at raw box stats.

Malone has a higher VORP career 99.0 vs 96.9. But peak KG was 10.0 vs Malone at 7.8. That's a massive gap peak vs peak.

We see the same trend in PER and WS. KG shows clear better peaks in both metrics.

And lets be real, KG never played with anyone on Stockton's level. Depending on the assessment you look at on Stockton, you can easily argue Stockton was Malone's equal if not the more impactful player.

Malone was an ironman and played crazy minutes. I have no issues if you take his longevity and make a case he was better than players who were better at their peaks, but lets discuss stats correctly. Malone's peak stats aren't better than KG. His career stats are due to insane health and just being an absolute iron man. That's his case over KG.

[erdamon]

Malone seems to be consistently ranked as a top 3-5 PF and top 20 player. That feels about right. I think Stockton was both the better of the two and the more underrated player. In many cases he's not even in the conversation for top 3-5 PG.

[SoulJah]

Tim Duncan is the best PF ever. Dirk, KG, Malone, Barkley etc, are all tier below Duncan. He is unanimously top, and there is no arguing there.

[dhsilv2]

He's not even close to top-10. He never won a title, despite being on loaded teams.

Players unquestionably better than him include:

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Steph, Magic, Bird, KD, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Wade, Dirk. I'd put KG ahead of him as well as he actually won a title. He's not even a lock for top-20 as there are a ton of other guys who had a similar impact to him (DRob, Pippen, Harden, CP3, Stockton, etc.). And that's not even including current young guys who will almost certainly end up having better careers than him (Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Embiid, etc.).

I think you're being way too harsh.

There are several greats who never won a title in part due to MJ/Bulls. But likely would have in most other era's.

KG was great. But Karl's stats & longevity are superior. Throw out the title argument for a second. He was just a better player.

Funnily enough, he lists Duncan and Kareem quite high up in his list (assuming it's in some sort of an order)... two players who are more known for their longevity rather than their peaks or flash... yet lists Dwayne Wade higher than Karl Malone despite Malone being greater for longer.

Duncan's 03 season is absolutely seen as an all time epic peak season...and playoff run. Kareem won 6 MVPs. Both have two of the best peaks ever.

Watch on YouTube

Here's ben taylor with both in the top 10 for best peaks. They get ranked higher than their respective peaks generally...but their peaks were massive too.

[Capn'O]

He falls short of the greatest PFs because he wasn't able to take control of big games by himself the way Duncan/Dirk/KG did. Beyond his power, he just didn't have that arsenal of moves. If you could shut down the PnFnR in the playoffs he was just very good. I can't really remember a "Malone Game" whereas Dirk, Duncan, and Garnett took over plenty. Then there's the defensive advantage of Duncan and Garnett.

[Cactus Jack]

Malone was an ironman and played crazy minutes. I have no issues if you take his longevity and make a case he was better than players who were better at their peaks, but lets discuss stats correctly. Malone's peak stats aren't better than KG. His career stats are due to insane health and just being an absolute iron man. That's his case over KG.

KG was nowhere near the offensive player. Malone averaged 31ppg in a single season ('89-90). He had a higher scoring average than KG's career best in 12 of those season's. That's remarkable. Karl averaged 25 & 10 over his career & is still 2nd in points. 7th in Rebounds. I just don't know how you can discount that.

Was KG a better defender? Certainly. But Karl still made the All-Defensive team 4x. He was by no means a slouch on that end.

Malone won 2 MVP's. KG just the one.

As far as games played they're only separated by 15 (6th/7th respectively). Obviously KG's minutes started to decline later in his career. But that speaks more to Karl's longevity. Which as you have acknowledged, he clearly has him beat.

I'd say that he has a pretty strong case.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Duncan
Garnett/Dirk
Malone

quite different tiers to me

___
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[BigShaq34]

i see some folks on reddit whenever karl is brought up confusing him with moses, and proceed to call moses malone a perv

they are 2 different people. Moses Malone was a good human being may he RIP

[Rauxcee]

Duncan is the GOAT PF. I would probably rank Malone second, but I can see Dirk ranked above. He is better the KG and Barkley IMO.