What will it take for you to take Curry over LeBron all-time?

[falcolombardi]

kareem and wilt played in eras with more scoring and minutes played

Career MP Including Playoffs:

Wilt: 55,418 (through age 34)
Kareem: 66,297 (through age 41)
Lebron: 63,175 MP (through age 37)

If Wilt had come up at 18 like Lebron, 40k/10k/10k would be a joke. And, if he hadn't been told to stop scoring in 1966? Forget about it. He scored 23,194 points in 595 games before they told him to stop scoring and focus on defense and passing.

No contest. Wilt and Kareem >> Lebron.

do those minutes include playoffs?

also you are assuming that a out of high school chamberlain or kareem would score at the same pace out od the gate or that adding 4 years od nba wear and tear to their bodies wouldnt have a effect later on

and not mentioning that a minute in the 60's or 70's had more possesions in average than a minute in the 2000's

[theFireBlanket]

kareem and wilt played in eras with more scoring and minutes played

Career MP Including Playoffs:

Wilt: 55,418 (through age 34)
Kareem: 66,297 (through age 41)
Lebron: 63,175 MP (through age 37)

If Wilt had come up at 18 like Lebron, 40k/10k/10k would be a joke. And, if he hadn't been told to stop scoring in 1966? Forget about it. He scored 23,194 points in 595 games before they told him to stop scoring and focus on defense and passing.

No contest. Wilt and Kareem >> Lebron.

do those minutes include playoffs?

also you are assuming that a out of high school chamberlain or kareem would score at the same pace out od the gate or that adding 4 years od nba wear and tear to their bodies wouldnt have a effect later on

and not mentioning that a minute in the 60's or 70's had more possesions in average than a minute in the 2000's

[Doctor MJ]

Steph needs 1 more ring, 2 more RS MVPs, 4 more Finals MVPs, 10 more ASG appearances, 9 more first team All-NBA, 1 more third team All-NBA, 5 more all defense first team, 1 more all defense second team and a ROY just to enter the conversation. Keep in mind, since LBJ is still active, these are moving targets

If you believe a 34 year old can achieve all that before retirement, then it can happen, otherwise...

So, sounds like your GOAT assessment is based almost entirely on the assessments of other people.
For the record, my GOAT assessment is about my own assessments.

I mean, that's cool but I'm not sure how much credibility it will have, outside of you.

That's a very charitable statement. I appreciate the courtesy JF.

Here's something I'll say though: Eventually everyone who cast any of those official votes will be dead, and if at that time everyone defers to their authority, then all basketball player comparison will actually just be debates between people who have different ways to weight things that other people thought.

What I'm advocating for is a basketball analysis culture that is more about the analyst learning what they can about the game through their own understanding of it. We lose that when we outsource our direct basketball thought.

[ty 4191]

do those minutes include playoffs?

Yes.

also you are assuming that a out of high school chamberlain or kareem would score at the same pace out od the gate or that adding 4 years od nba wear and tear to their bodies wouldnt have a effect later on

I'm assuming they would dominate once they hit the NBA. How many players have been as awesome as Wilt and Kareem their first two (respective) seasons in the NBA?

I'm assuming they'd be spending 1.5 million dollars a year on their bodies today, to be apples to apples in a comparison to Lebron. And, like him, wouldn't wear down. Like LeBron hasn't.

and not mentioning that a minute in the 60's or 70's had more possesions in average than a minute in the 2000's

More possessions, per game, sure.

Also, far more (and far more taxing) and brutal minutes in Wilt and Kareem's Eras, compared to Lebron's. Drastically more physical game before all the rules were changed to soften defense, and also, to dramatically decrease charges and offensive fouls (which, a football player playing basketball like Lebron for the past 20 years has exploited, to the MAX).

Watch on YouTube

;t=47s&ab_channel=WiltChamberlainArchive

[JujitsuFlip]

So, sounds like your GOAT assessment is based almost entirely on the assessments of other people.
For the record, my GOAT assessment is about my own assessments.

I mean, that's cool but I'm not sure how much credibility it will have, outside of you.

That's a very charitable statement. I appreciate the courtesy JF.

Here's something I'll say though: Eventually everyone who cast any of those official votes will be dead, and if at that time everyone defers to their authority, then all basketball player comparison will actually just be debates between people who have different ways to weight things that other people thought.

What I'm advocating for is a basketball analysis culture that is more about the analyst learning what they can about the game through their own understanding of it. We lose that when we outsource our direct basketball thought.

I get where you're coming from. I just think it's very difficult to create any means of consensus with that approach. I understand complete consensus will never happen. I just think measuring greatness is difficult without stats and/or accolades.

[Joao Saraiva]

I don't think it's possible. LeBron ranks higher in peak for me, prime too and he has better longevity by a bigger margin even than the other two.

Curry would have to surpass LeBron in at least one of those categories for me to consider.

No shame tough, the MJ/KAJ/LeBron range takes something very special to get into. I see a case for Russell or Wilt to fight them, but that's it.

[falcolombardi]

do those minutes include playoffs?

Yes.

also you are assuming that a out of high school chamberlain or kareem would score at the same pace out od the gate or that adding 4 years od nba wear and tear to their bodies wouldnt have a effect later on

I'm assuming they would dominate once they hit the NBA. How many players have been as awesome as Wilt and Kareem their first two (respective) seasons in the NBA?

I'm assuming they'd be spending 1.5 million dollars a year on their bodies today, to be apples to apples in a comparison to Lebron. And, like him, wouldn't wear down. Like LeBron hasn't.

and not mentioning that a minute in the 60's or 70's had more possesions in average than a minute in the 2000's[/quote]

More possessions, per game, sure.

Also, far more (and far more taxing) and brutal minutes in Wilt and Kareem's Eras, compared to Lebron's. Drastically more physical game before all the rules were changed to soften defense, and also, to dramatically decrease charges and offensive fouls (which, a football player playing basketball like Lebron for the past 20 years has exploited, to the MAX).

Watch on YouTube

;t=47s&ab_channel=WiltChamberlainArchive[/quote]

scoring records are regular season only (although lebron also has the playoffs record) so the minutes comparision is misguided , you should be comparing regular season minutes to make your point instead

there are a lot of arguments to be done both ways (i could tell you that the greater nutrition and training point also goes for defenders lebron faced) but in all honestly you seem to be firmly in the "modern era achievements dont count cause basketball is softer now"camp so a convo may be pointless

[TheGOATRises007]

Nothing.

LeBron is a clearly better player from peak/prime/career totality.

[ty 4191]

scoring records are regular season only (although lebron also has the playoffs record) so the minutes comparision is misguided , you should be comparing regular season minutes to make your point instead

Total minutes played was used because you said "Russell and Kareem played in an era with a lot more minutes played."

It was also used because we're comparing the entire body of work for all three. We have to include the playoffs. Hell, when Lebron broke the all time scoring record (RS+Playoffs) it was a MASSIVE deal.

there are a lot of arguments to be done both ways (i could tell you that the greater nutrition and training point also goes for defenders lebron faced) but in all honestly you seem to be firmly in the "modern era achievements dont count cause basketball is softer now"camp so a convo may be pointless

Make the arguments, then.

I'm not in any camp. I'm saying 40k/10k/10k is bogus, because Lebron 1) Got to play 4 extra years (in his physical prime) vs. Wilt (and 3 more than Kareem) because they hadn't had the Haywood vs. NBA Supreme Court Ruling yet.

And 2) Wilt stopped scoring the second half of his career. If he hadn't, he'd make 40k/10k/10k look like a joke. Not to mention, he had about 10,000 blocks in his career, including the playoffs, and they weren't even counted! Not a single block!

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/in-112-career-games-wilt-chamberlain-averaged-8-8-blocks-per-game-that-would-be-an-nba-record-by-margin-of-5-3-blocks#:~:text=NBA%20Media-,In%20112%20Career%20Games%2C%20Wilt%20Chamberlain%20Averaged%208.8%20Blocks%20Per,A%20Margin%20of%203.3%20Blocks.&text=When%20discussing%20the%20most%20dominant,to%20be%20in%20the%20conversation.

What's more impressive? 40K/10K/10K/1K for Lebron, or, 50K/20K/5K/10K for WIlt?

[tcheco]

I mean, let's say Curry plays another 5 years, wins 3 rings being the best player in the roster in all of them. Possible? Yes Probable? Not

That's the gap I believe. Maybe if he has 2 more rings playing his best 2 seasons in his career, that could be enough? Still Lebron did so much for so long

[thebigbird]

scoring records are regular season only (although lebron also has the playoffs record) so the minutes comparision is misguided , you should be comparing regular season minutes to make your point instead

Total minutes played was used because you said "Russell and Kareem played in an era with a lot more minutes played."

It was also used because we're comparing the entire body of work for all three. We have to include the playoffs. Hell, when Lebron broke the all time scoring record (RS+Playoffs) it was a MASSIVE deal.

there are a lot of arguments to be done both ways (i could tell you that the greater nutrition and training point also goes for defenders lebron faced) but in all honestly you seem to be firmly in the "modern era achievements dont count cause basketball is softer now"camp so a convo may be pointless

Make the arguments, then.

I'm not in any camp. I'm saying 40k/10k/10k is bogus, because Lebron 1) Got to play 4 extra years (in his physical prime) vs. Wilt (and 3 more than Kareem) because they

And 2) Wilt stopped scoring the second half of his career. If he hadn't, he'd make 40k/10k/10k look like a joke. Not to mention, he had about 10,000 blocks in his career, including the playoffs, and they weren't even counted! Not a single block!

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/in-112-career-games-wilt-chamberlain-averaged-8-8-blocks-per-game-that-would-be-an-nba-record-by-margin-of-5-3-blocks#:~:text=NBA%20Media-,In%20112%20Career%20Games%2C%20Wilt%20Chamberlain%20Averaged%208.8%20Blocks%20Per,A%20Margin%20of%203.3%20Blocks.&text=When%20discussing%20the%20most%20dominant,to%20be%20in%20the%20conversation.

What's more impressive? 40K/10K/10K/1K for Lebron, or, 50K/20K/5K/10K for WIlt?

If if if if if. That’s all you have. If *insert most favorable outcome possible* then Wilt would have X! But, he doesn’t. That’s reality.

[WarriorGM]

Curry is already greater.

Turned around and brought the team that drafted him a championship in less time. Won more championships with that team. Won organically. Had a better superteam. Played in the tougher conference.

For all the talk of LeBron having the scoring record, Curry's highest scoring game is higher than LeBron's and Curry has more scoring titles.

[falcolombardi]

scoring records are regular season only (although lebron also has the playoffs record) so the minutes comparision is misguided , you should be comparing regular season minutes to make your point instead

Total minutes played was used because you said "Russell and Kareem played in an era with a lot more minutes played."

It was also used because we're comparing the entire body of work for all three. We have to include the playoffs. Hell, when Lebron broke the all time scoring record (RS+Playoffs) it was a MASSIVE deal.

there are a lot of arguments to be done both ways (i could tell you that the greater nutrition and training point also goes for defenders lebron faced) but in all honestly you seem to be firmly in the "modern era achievements dont count cause basketball is softer now"camp so a convo may be pointless

Make the arguments, then.

I'm not in any camp. I'm saying 40k/10k/10k is bogus, because Lebron 1) Got to play 4 extra years (in his physical prime) vs. Wilt (and 3 more than Kareem) because they

And 2) Wilt stopped scoring the second half of his career. If he hadn't, he'd make 40k/10k/10k look like a joke. Not to mention, he had about 10,000 blocks in his career, including the playoffs, and they weren't even counted! Not a single block!

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/in-112-career-games-wilt-chamberlain-averaged-8-8-blocks-per-game-that-would-be-an-nba-record-by-margin-of-5-3-blocks#:~:text=NBA%20Media-,In%20112%20Career%20Games%2C%20Wilt%20Chamberlain%20Averaged%208.8%20Blocks%20Per,A%20Margin%20of%203.3%20Blocks.&text=When%20discussing%20the%20most%20dominant,to%20be%20in%20the%20conversation.

What's more impressive? 40K/10K/10K/1K for Lebron, or, 50K/20K/5K/10K for WIlt?

we are talking about the regular season scoring record, the 40/10/10 thingh would also be regular seasom only

if you want go argue that kareem and wilt scored more than lebron on a per minute basis, the argument to make would be using regular season minutes, as lebron has played a lot more playoffs minutes than them but playoffs point dont coubt towards the record

i would argue that a 40k/10k/10k by lebron would be more impressive than a wilt 50k/20k/5k/10k in the virtue of the former actually being real

i get you think kareem or wilt scoring is more impressive tjan lebron, that is a perfectly valis opinion, what is less valid is diminishing a record because you think under difference circunstances another player could have it instead

freezing records forever cause you think they were harder to get in the past is a pointless endeavor

[ty 4191]

Dude, they WERE harder to get to. When you can't come into the NBA at 18, and have to wait till 22/23, it's a LOT harder to compile counting stats.

Which is what this entire debate is about.

That, and Lebron spending more on his body per year than Wilt ever made, period, in any year. Even after adjusting for inflation.

[CS707]

Who you would take and who is better in a vacuum are really two different things. If the Warriors win they’ve got the same number of rings with Steph looking to have better odds going forward. At the end of the day that’s all that really matters when making this decision.

[shoresy69]

I'm a Steph superfan but LeBron is in the discussion for best player ever. Curry would have to win 3-4 more championships in a row to even approach that level.

[WarriorGM]

I'm a Steph superfan but LeBron is in the discussion for best player ever. Curry would have to win 3-4 more championships in a row to even approach that level.

Who created the discussion? What criteria did they use? To me it makes no sense to not have the player who led the teams with the best regular season record and the best playoffs record not in the discussion.

[shoresy69]

I'm a Steph superfan but LeBron is in the discussion for best player ever. Curry would have to win 3-4 more championships in a row to even approach that level.

Who created the discussion? What criteria did they use? To me it makes no sense to not have the player who led the teams with the best regular season record and the best playoffs record not in the discussion.

Because we can analyze player performance without binding it completely to team success. LeBron hit the ground running at the start of his career and has put up historic numbers ever since. LeBron shouldn't be penalized for spending the first third of his career with an incompetent organization.

[SecondTake]

The gap from Kareem (6 rings, 6 MVPs) to LeBron (4 rings, 4 MPVs) is much bigger than the gap from LeBron to Curry (3 rings, 2 MVPs).

You forgot the most important accolade, fmvp, on purpose?

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

[WarriorGM]

I'm a Steph superfan but LeBron is in the discussion for best player ever. Curry would have to win 3-4 more championships in a row to even approach that level.

Who created the discussion? What criteria did they use? To me it makes no sense to not have the player who led the teams with the best regular season record and the best playoffs record not in the discussion.

Because we can analyze player performance without binding it completely to team success. LeBron hit the ground running at the start of his career and has put up historic numbers ever since. LeBron shouldn't be penalized for spending the first third of his career with an incompetent organization.

We can and the simple takeaway I see is that Curry is a more efficient player than LeBron and judging from the results that makes him a better player.