[Wiretap] Pacers See Tyrese Haliburton As Their Next Reggie Miller

[BoogieTime]

I wish the Kings had kept Haliburton.

It seems as if your shadowing me at times, truly

[BoogieTime]

First the Kings pass on Luka because of Fox, and now Haliburton? That’s inexcusable roster management.

Because Tyrese has proven to be something that shouldn't be passed on

[sackings916]

if the Kings accomplish nothing with Sabonis and Fox as a duo they've completely failed and this will be looked back as another colossal failure

Haliburton is special, he really started to shine when Fox was out. The Kings opted to trade Haliburton instead and so far this season Haliburton is playing like an All Star

So far this season De'aaron Fox is averaging 30 points per game and shooting 45% from the three. It's been 3 games.

It has been 3 games. Fox has been playing like this since the 2nd half of last season and no one has noticed.

[Exp0sed]

Fox and Sabonis can play together and accentuate each other in two man game, and Fox Haliburton couldn’t

The results do look questionable so far but we’ll seen which team starts to win

this was the most bewildering trade I can remember

The franchise with the longest playoff drought in the NBA finally drafts a guy with real franchise player potential, who actually really wants to play there (that's pretty rare for the Kings nowadays) and they actually trade him for a couple of seasons of a low-end all star in his mid twenties

If the counter arguments is: but but it "unleashes" Fox because Hali and Fox don't fit together and Sabonis and Fox do..then it's a weak and flawed argument

for one, Fox has not been a good NBAplayer thus far in his career
He has potential, sure..but he is just as likely to never fulfill it than he is to fulfill it

in this scenario of fit\redundancy, you obviously ship Fox out

The Kings did this trade supposedly to end their playoff drought, not only will it not work (because Fox just ain't it), they also did it in a window where the West is historically stacked, so they had long odds to begin with

Taking a 3 game sample as evidence of Fox's emergence is...well...
they played together last season too, right? how did that go?

Fox has been shooting 45% from 3, after just 29% last season and 32% for his career
and he's been shooting 2's at 66%

not sure what useful insight we can glean for these 3 games (all losses btw)

The Kings are just awfull, the obvious move was to keep and develop them both
it's not like they were competing for something anyway, so its the same as on Draft night - BPA always trumps fit

you keep the two best players and assets, develop them and deal of them down the line when the right deal presents itself or if the need arises

First off, there is no evidence that Haliburton is better than Fox or Sabonis, your the one going off of a 3 game sample. How do you know a 24 year old isnt it?

It's pretty clear, Fox and Haliburton didn't fit, Fox's value was in the tubes, Haliburtons wasnt.

Its Fox/Sabonis or Haliburton and a weak pick or two after Fox's disinterested play and low trade value playing off the ball with Haliburton. Thats inane logic to trade the player who cant get back an equitable good player. Sabonis is the second best passing big in the league putting up 20/10/5 and may have bigger impact than either.

Yes, its a huge risk that Sabonis will be a UFA, that plays unto the admitted uncertainty. Age wise I'm not concerned by the 3.5 years as bigs play longer, and Domas has been nothing but complimentary about living here. Most players who play for the Kings dont want to leave, including Fox

Yes, the team is not only the laughingstock with he longest playoff drought but the fans gave the mandate with 2nd worst attendance they want to see basketball now.

personally I thought Hali was a much better asset long before the trade, i'm not refering to the 3 games this season at all -
apart from taking 5 more FGA per game in said 3 games - he's basically doing what he did last season..

24 isn't that young, especially not for a a high draft pick that was featured heavily from day 1, i mean.this will be like his 6th NBA season and he'd need a Wiggins type transformation to actually be a difference maker

it can still happen for Fox, if he reaches a Trae caliber offensive game, but that seems unlikely
and his defense isn't likely to dramtically improve (and it's real bad)
Seems like a great guy, but just doesn't bring anything extra to the table to seperate him from other guys (and cheaper guys)

he's a small and quick guard that has barely played 60 games in the past 3 seasons, so not like he's durable or someone you can count on if ur main goal is to make a push to a playoffs spot

His defense and stature would also probably make him far less effective (and even a liability at times) if the Kings actually make it
he has just never been in the playoffs so we "don't know" but come on now be honest - we know

I get that he had a down year and his trade value was down but the Kings had no need to make a trade at all..
just roll them both, recoup his value - then trade him

Hali looked from the get-go like potentially a real difference maker
he's younger, cheaper and i'd imagine 95% would agree he has a substaintially higher ceiling than Fox

If the Mandate was to reach the playoffs - the Kings had a better shot at hoping Hali gets there sooner rather than later (as it turned out - he did and he does) then to actually believe Fox\Sabonis can get u there, that's far fetched tbh

[BoogieTime]

this was the most bewildering trade I can remember

The franchise with the longest playoff drought in the NBA finally drafts a guy with real franchise player potential, who actually really wants to play there (that's pretty rare for the Kings nowadays) and they actually trade him for a couple of seasons of a low-end all star in his mid twenties

If the counter arguments is: but but it "unleashes" Fox because Hali and Fox don't fit together and Sabonis and Fox do..then it's a weak and flawed argument

for one, Fox has not been a good NBAplayer thus far in his career
He has potential, sure..but he is just as likely to never fulfill it than he is to fulfill it

in this scenario of fit\redundancy, you obviously ship Fox out

The Kings did this trade supposedly to end their playoff drought, not only will it not work (because Fox just ain't it), they also did it in a window where the West is historically stacked, so they had long odds to begin with

Taking a 3 game sample as evidence of Fox's emergence is...well...
they played together last season too, right? how did that go?

Fox has been shooting 45% from 3, after just 29% last season and 32% for his career
and he's been shooting 2's at 66%

not sure what useful insight we can glean for these 3 games (all losses btw)

The Kings are just awfull, the obvious move was to keep and develop them both
it's not like they were competing for something anyway, so its the same as on Draft night - BPA always trumps fit

you keep the two best players and assets, develop them and deal of them down the line when the right deal presents itself or if the need arises

First off, there is no evidence that Haliburton is better than Fox or Sabonis, your the one going off of a 3 game sample. How do you know a 24 year old isnt it?

It's pretty clear, Fox and Haliburton didn't fit, Fox's value was in the tubes, Haliburtons wasnt.

Its Fox/Sabonis or Haliburton and a weak pick or two after Fox's disinterested play and low trade value playing off the ball with Haliburton. Thats inane logic to trade the player who cant get back an equitable good player. Sabonis is the second best passing big in the league putting up 20/10/5 and may have bigger impact than either.

Yes, its a huge risk that Sabonis will be a UFA, that plays unto the admitted uncertainty. Age wise I'm not concerned by the 3.5 years as bigs play longer, and Domas has been nothing but complimentary about living here. Most players who play for the Kings dont want to leave, including Fox

Yes, the team is not only the laughingstock with he longest playoff drought but the fans gave the mandate with 2nd worst attendance they want to see basketball now.

personally I thought Hali was a much better asset long before the trade, i'm not refering to the 3 games this season at all -
apart from taking 5 more FGA per game in said 3 games - he's basically doing what he did last season..

24 isn't that young, especially not for a a high draft pick that was featured heavily from day 1, i mean.this will be like his 6th NBA season and he'd need a Wiggins type transformation to actually be a difference maker

it can still happen for Fox, if he reaches a Trae caliber offensive game, but that seems unlikely
and his defense isn't likely to dramtically improve (and it's real bad)
Seems like a great guy, but just doesn't bring anything extra to the table to seperate him from other guys (and cheaper guys)

he's a small and quick guard that has barely played 60 games in the past 3 seasons, so not like he's durable or someone you can count on if ur main goal is to make a push to a playoffs spot

His defense and stature would also probably make him far less effective (and even a liability at times) if the Kings actually make it
he has just never been in the playoffs so we "don't know" but come on now be honest - we know

I get that he had a down year and his trade value was down but the Kings had no need to make a trade at all..
just roll them both, recoup his value - then trade him

Hali looked from the get-go like potentially a real difference maker
he's younger, cheaper and i'd imagine 95% would agree he has a substaintially higher ceiling than Fox

If the Mandate was to reach the playoffs - the Kings had a better shot at hoping Hali gets there sooner rather than later (as it turned out - he did and he does) then to actually believe Fox\Sabonis can get u there, that's far fetched tbh

First, lets understand that Fox's physical profile dictates he can be a prime defender, and the lack thereof has been mainly between the ears. And that his "lack of defense" has been seasonal, when playing with appropriate NBA level coaches in Joerger and so far with Brown his defense has been a plus. And it can be argued he's capable of being a better defender than Tyrese, who hasn't been a plus defender at all yet either.

And Tyrese's pretty numbers haven't led to team impact yet. Sabonis has impacted the game in the previous years at a much higher level in terms of advanced stats.

I dont know where the idea that Sabonis, a 20/10/5 big who can be the fulcrum of offense is just a throw in?

Your right, a trade didn't need to be made. The owner had given the mandate for many reasons. First it isnt cool to be the running laughingstock of the record and there is pressure to end it, attendance, fan apathy, possible financial concerns, there is pressure to end the drought. And Fox/Sabonis accentuate rather than become a detriment for each other (Fox's play post Hali demonstrates that), so its still in the air whether or not it will work or whether Tyrese will become a franchise player, we will see

[Effigy]

First the Kings pass on Luka because of Fox, and now Haliburton? That’s inexcusable roster management.

Because Tyrese has proven to be something that shouldn't be passed on

He's averaging 25.7 points, 9.7 assists and a PER of 29.68.

Yes it is incredibly early (this season) but the Kings should not have passed on him.

[Exp0sed]

First off, there is no evidence that Haliburton is better than Fox or Sabonis, your the one going off of a 3 game sample. How do you know a 24 year old isnt it?

It's pretty clear, Fox and Haliburton didn't fit, Fox's value was in the tubes, Haliburtons wasnt.

Its Fox/Sabonis or Haliburton and a weak pick or two after Fox's disinterested play and low trade value playing off the ball with Haliburton. Thats inane logic to trade the player who cant get back an equitable good player. Sabonis is the second best passing big in the league putting up 20/10/5 and may have bigger impact than either.

Yes, its a huge risk that Sabonis will be a UFA, that plays unto the admitted uncertainty. Age wise I'm not concerned by the 3.5 years as bigs play longer, and Domas has been nothing but complimentary about living here. Most players who play for the Kings dont want to leave, including Fox

Yes, the team is not only the laughingstock with he longest playoff drought but the fans gave the mandate with 2nd worst attendance they want to see basketball now.

personally I thought Hali was a much better asset long before the trade, i'm not refering to the 3 games this season at all -
apart from taking 5 more FGA per game in said 3 games - he's basically doing what he did last season..

24 isn't that young, especially not for a a high draft pick that was featured heavily from day 1, i mean.this will be like his 6th NBA season and he'd need a Wiggins type transformation to actually be a difference maker

it can still happen for Fox, if he reaches a Trae caliber offensive game, but that seems unlikely
and his defense isn't likely to dramtically improve (and it's real bad)
Seems like a great guy, but just doesn't bring anything extra to the table to seperate him from other guys (and cheaper guys)

he's a small and quick guard that has barely played 60 games in the past 3 seasons, so not like he's durable or someone you can count on if ur main goal is to make a push to a playoffs spot

His defense and stature would also probably make him far less effective (and even a liability at times) if the Kings actually make it
he has just never been in the playoffs so we "don't know" but come on now be honest - we know

I get that he had a down year and his trade value was down but the Kings had no need to make a trade at all..
just roll them both, recoup his value - then trade him

Hali looked from the get-go like potentially a real difference maker
he's younger, cheaper and i'd imagine 95% would agree he has a substaintially higher ceiling than Fox

If the Mandate was to reach the playoffs - the Kings had a better shot at hoping Hali gets there sooner rather than later (as it turned out - he did and he does) then to actually believe Fox\Sabonis can get u there, that's far fetched tbh

First, lets understand that Fox's physical profile dictates he can be a prime defender, and the lack thereof has been mainly between the ears. And that his "lack of defense" has been seasonal, when playing with appropriate NBA level coaches in Joerger and so far with Brown his defense has been a plus. And it can be argued he's capable of being a better defender than Tyrese, who hasn't been a plus defender at all yet either.

And Tyrese's pretty numbers haven't led to team impact yet. Sabonis has impacted the game in the previous years at a much higher level in terms of advanced stats.

I dont know where the idea that Sabonis, a 20/10/5 big who can be the fulcrum of offense is just a throw in?

Your right, a trade didn't need to be made. The owner had given the mandate for many reasons. First it isnt cool to be the running laughingstock of the record and there is pressure to end it, attendance, fan apathy, possible financial concerns, there is pressure to end the drought. And Fox/Sabonis accentuate rather than become a detriment for each other (Fox's play post Hali demonstrates that), so its still in the air whether or not it will work or whether Tyrese will become a franchise player, we will see

p.s, where did I imply that Sabonis was a "throw in"? he's a very good player, but imo he's very hard to build around
He has a good but not great and not very reliable offensive game, he doesn't spread the floor AND he isn't a good defender at least for a big man (he's below avg for a starter in his position)..where does that really get u? not very far..no reason to pay max money for that, it's just not an effective game (not surprising that we haven't seen Domas winning many games in Indy either)

btw, u right - Sabonis's ability to be "the fullcrum of the offense" is probably his best quality, but playing alongside Fox - that's never gonna happen. it's just a bad fit imo, it turns Sabonis into a glorified role player which is a bigger issue because of his so-so defense, meaning: you need to get more out of him on the offensive end to compensate

he can still improve his skills and focus and he's a good player to have generally, but not at the cost of the best prospect ur franchise drafted in decades - that's absurd..

I hope for Kings fans that u are right about the Sabonis\Fox Duo
personally I don't thnk Fox is anything special and I don't think they "accentuate" each other either actually might be the opposite

[Hoop Hunter]

Some of you folks did not understand the statement. They are not saying Hali's game is anything like Reggie's. That he could be the face of the franchise and fan favorite for many years.

[Pacernation]

Stop bashing the poor kings and start to celebrate Hali. The future Point God!

[XTC]

I said it back then. This trade was an utter disaster for the Kings

1) Hali wanted to be a King
2) Hali is a god damn stud

It was a short sighted move. I want the King's to be good trust me, but this move was mind boggling.

[Priest24]

I see him as a modern day Vern Fleming. Bennedict is the man to watch.

[xBulletproof]

I see him as a modern day Vern Fleming. Bennedict is the man to watch.

What.The.****.

Just no.

Dude lives in my neighborhood. If I run into him again anytime soon I'll tell him someone said this.

[8305]

I see him as a modern day Vern Fleming. Bennedict is the man to watch.

I remember Vern Fleming. Both about 6’5”. Absolutely no similarity beyond that.

[Priest24]

I see him as a modern day Vern Fleming. Bennedict is the man to watch.

What.The.****.

Just no.

Dude lives in my neighborhood. If I run into him again anytime soon I'll tell him someone said this.

Which dude? Vern or Tyrese?

[Priest24]

I see him as a modern day Vern Fleming. Bennedict is the man to watch.

I remember Vern Fleming. Both about 6’5”. Absolutely no similarity beyond that.

In the context of this thread I'm simply saying that I see Haliburton as a long time good Pacer player that won't be the star.

[xBulletproof]

I see him as a modern day Vern Fleming. Bennedict is the man to watch.

What.The.****.

Just no.

Dude lives in my neighborhood. If I run into him again anytime soon I'll tell him someone said this.

Which dude? Vern or Tyrese?

Vern.

He was an insanely good finisher around the rim, and even though he was a decent FT shooter he was just not a threat past 16-18 feet. He was sharing starting duty with Heywood Workman. Tyrese has All NBA potential. Fleming was a good role player, not much else. I don't see the comparison in style, or production. Tyrese 14 points and 7 assists in Sacramento last year was very nearly identical to the peak of Verns career statistically.

[Priest24]

What.The.****.

Just no.

Dude lives in my neighborhood. If I run into him again anytime soon I'll tell him someone said this.

Which dude? Vern or Tyrese?

Vern.

He was an insanely good finisher around the rim, and even though he was a decent FT shooter he was just not a threat past 16-18 feet. He was sharing starting duty with Heywood Workman. Tyrese has All NBA potential. Fleming was a good role player, not much else. I don't see the comparison in style, or production. Tyrese 14 points and 7 assists in Sacramento last year was very nearly identical to the peak of Verns career statistically.

I tried to explain my mentality in the next post. Comparing stats in this high scoring era is tough and who knows what Vern could have done in a main scorer role. I'm by no means discounting TH's potential but through observation I just don't see him as the team leader of the future. He seems too passive.

[BoogieTime]

personally I thought Hali was a much better asset long before the trade, i'm not refering to the 3 games this season at all -
apart from taking 5 more FGA per game in said 3 games - he's basically doing what he did last season..

24 isn't that young, especially not for a a high draft pick that was featured heavily from day 1, i mean.this will be like his 6th NBA season and he'd need a Wiggins type transformation to actually be a difference maker

it can still happen for Fox, if he reaches a Trae caliber offensive game, but that seems unlikely
and his defense isn't likely to dramtically improve (and it's real bad)
Seems like a great guy, but just doesn't bring anything extra to the table to seperate him from other guys (and cheaper guys)

he's a small and quick guard that has barely played 60 games in the past 3 seasons, so not like he's durable or someone you can count on if ur main goal is to make a push to a playoffs spot

His defense and stature would also probably make him far less effective (and even a liability at times) if the Kings actually make it
he has just never been in the playoffs so we "don't know" but come on now be honest - we know

I get that he had a down year and his trade value was down but the Kings had no need to make a trade at all..
just roll them both, recoup his value - then trade him

Hali looked from the get-go like potentially a real difference maker
he's younger, cheaper and i'd imagine 95% would agree he has a substaintially higher ceiling than Fox

If the Mandate was to reach the playoffs - the Kings had a better shot at hoping Hali gets there sooner rather than later (as it turned out - he did and he does) then to actually believe Fox\Sabonis can get u there, that's far fetched tbh

First, lets understand that Fox's physical profile dictates he can be a prime defender, and the lack thereof has been mainly between the ears. And that his "lack of defense" has been seasonal, when playing with appropriate NBA level coaches in Joerger and so far with Brown his defense has been a plus. And it can be argued he's capable of being a better defender than Tyrese, who hasn't been a plus defender at all yet either.

And Tyrese's pretty numbers haven't led to team impact yet. Sabonis has impacted the game in the previous years at a much higher level in terms of advanced stats.

I dont know where the idea that Sabonis, a 20/10/5 big who can be the fulcrum of offense is just a throw in?

Your right, a trade didn't need to be made. The owner had given the mandate for many reasons. First it isnt cool to be the running laughingstock of the record and there is pressure to end it, attendance, fan apathy, possible financial concerns, there is pressure to end the drought. And Fox/Sabonis accentuate rather than become a detriment for each other (Fox's play post Hali demonstrates that), so its still in the air whether or not it will work or whether Tyrese will become a franchise player, we will see

p.s, where did I imply that Sabonis was a "throw in"? he's a very good player, but imo he's very hard to build around
He has a good but not great and not very reliable offensive game, he doesn't spread the floor AND he isn't a good defender at least for a big man (he's below avg for a starter in his position)..where does that really get u? not very far..no reason to pay max money for that, it's just not an effective game (not surprising that we haven't seen Domas winning many games in Indy either)

btw, u right - Sabonis's ability to be "the fullcrum of the offense" is probably his best quality, but playing alongside Fox - that's never gonna happen. it's just a bad fit imo, it turns Sabonis into a glorified role player which is a bigger issue because of his so-so defense, meaning: you need to get more out of him on the offensive end to compensate

he can still improve his skills and focus and he's a good player to have generally, but not at the cost of the best prospect ur franchise drafted in decades - that's absurd..

I hope for Kings fans that u are right about the Sabonis\Fox Duo
personally I don't thnk Fox is anything special and I don't think they "accentuate" each other either actually might be the opposite

We're not there, and won't be there until Tyrese impacts winning on a serious level, which he may or may not do and which at this point Domas has done more

[BoogieTime]

Stop bashing the poor kings and start to celebrate Hali. The future Point God!

Absolutely. I dont like being put in a position of having to put negativity on his thread, as it turns to another bash Kings cycle. He's a great kid and very skilled, will be interesting to see him develop the leadership side. He was passive here but Carlisle has him aggressive so far. Stats so far have been great

[GSWFan1994]

Just took a trip down memory lane for this thread... sorry for the re-up, folks.

Back in August, I said Hali would be named an All-Star... yep, guess I got at least one thing right in my whole life.

Very happy for Hali. He quickly became one of the my favourite players to watch.

He will definitely make an All-NBA team, perhaps as soon as this season.

More All-Stars berths are on the way. And a HOF career too.

He's arguably the greatest floor-raiser in the whole league currently.