Success rate for hitting the Reset button.

[Dark Faze]

To me it's mostly about the age of the core. If you can't get past the 1st round, then you should only keep that going for so long before seeking large improvements.

If you're getting to the second round consistently and no further, keep that going until you're about to extend your star players into their 30's. If you can't make a big enough improvement to become a contender, trade them before this extension.

If you're consistently hitting the conference finals, that's when you can extend and keep attempting to compete with star players in their 30's.

[Warriors Analyst]

Cleveland has a done a good job of re-setting after LeBron's second departure. Altman made some clumsy decisions at first like the botched hire of Beihlin, but has built a pretty solid roster that should ave made the playoffs last year if not for a rash of injuries to all their ball-handlers not named Garland.

It's funny how much better this reset went than their previous post-LeBron reset which included choosing Tristan Thompsn and Dion Waiters at the #4 in consecutive seasons and Anthony Bennet with the #1 pick.

[ShootersShoot]

Except for the '20 Lakers, that team relied heavily on Kobe Bryant. Yes, technically, they traded their center Vlade to get the rights to Bean. Mavs relied heavily on their draftee Dirk. Heat still had the pretty good Wade to team up with major FA's. None of these champs have won it all. Cavs landed Kyrie when Lebron chose to leave them, it's not like they traded James and many good assets to get Kyrie.

Tanking is not just being dead set on developing a young core. It also allows to trade any of the young players and other assets to turn them into players like AD, KG, Ray Allen, Harden.. It helps to entice potential free agents to sign. There are a lot of good arguments for tanking. Even if teams don't win championships, they have perennial playoff teams with blue chip players (such as embiid and harden, and to an extent maxey)

A team like the cavs can build around garland and mobley. Even if it doesnt result in a championship, fans will get excited and the team will be relevant with legit talent to build around.

I really think we need to separate the issue of tanking and hitting the reset button. Lakers didn’t trade aging Kobe and neither the Mavs with Dirk so in essence, the low point was organic after they retired. They then sucked and allowed them to draft good players. Lakers flipped them for AD. Cleveland didnt trade Lebron, he left, they then sucked which allowed them to pick Kyrie. Sixers had a decent team before then Hinkie decided to trade a every asset so they could collect great talent from the draft for like 5 straight years. OKC has been trying to do it too and there’s still uncertainty if it will work. Miami on the other hand didn’t go that route of prolonged misery esp for the fans. It’s an expensive and tedious approach but I have more respect for them, trying to put a good product on the floor without abusing the NBA version of the welfare system.

Yea that is a very good point about a team naturally letting their aging team become a lottery team vs trading away competitive pieces to tank. I can see why a perennial playoff team like the jazz trading away all stars in their prime to begin rebuilding seems asinine and against the spirit of the game. This will be an interesting case study for the upcoming generations because it does seem unprecedented.

[LakersLegacy]

The treadmill is exhausting and a waste of time. Contender, forward momentum or reset and go for contender and forward momentum

[cupcakesnake]

I often wonder what it's like to be a fan of the Pacers or Blazers (or the Jazz until this summer).

- The Pacers haven't won less than 30 games since 1989. They've won more than 40 in 20 of the past 30 seasons. They've built 3 different East contenders (Reggie, JO/Artest, Paul George) in that span. They're almost never stacked but they're rarely bad.
- Portland has similar sustained success. Watched the Sheed era become the Jailblazers, salvaged the Oden/Roy tragedies with plenty of 50-win Aldridge seasons, went straight into the Dame era. Even when the team falls apart, they're usually back on track within 2-3 seasons.

It's probably more fun than going through 5-year rebuilds (especially if it doesn't work the first time and you do another one).

is it though? Both those teams have seen the second round of the playoffs and have given their fans multiple iterations to cheer for. I'd think being a Wolves fan would be worse personally. But obviously now with Towns/Edwards emergence there's a nice buzz around the team.

Being a Raptors fan in the 2000's was brutal. Being the butt of a jokes, euro stigma, team underperforming and frankly missing with more picks than they hit. Regardless if we had a fairly big lead, as soon as the 4th quarter began a collapse was soon to follow. The good organizations stay relevant because they manage to draft well enough to be competitive.

Yeah I followed the Raps as well throughout the 2000s. It was pretty similar to being a Wolves fan except instead of KG you have Chris Bosh and/or Il Mago. Instead of Sam Cassell/Sprewell year, Raps had the Anthony Parker/Jorge Garbajosa experience. But while the Raps moved on from Babcock era into the Colangelo and then Ujiri... we had multiple Babcocks (McHale, Kahn, Thibs).

Being a Wolves fan was quite arguably the most punishing NBA fan experience until recently. Even now I'm ready for it to fall apart and sink back down into total misery. I wasn't even a diehard KG fan so there's very few brightspots. As a Canadian, it was pretty painful to watch the careers of Anthony Bennett and Andrew Wiggins go down the toilet in Minny. The Rubio-Pekovic moment was pretty fun but not quite a playoff team. The Towns era hasn't been fun, with everyone bagging on his defense. The Jimmy Butler fiasco was humiliating and cruel. This is by far the most real-seeming team we've ever had.

But take away the Kawhi trade and the Raps fan experience was similar. The VC thing was humiliating, demoralizing, brand ruining. The Bosh era was kind of like the early KAT era, everyone calling your star soft. Il Mago Primo Pasta commercials. Hafa AraUJoooo! Then when the Raps are finally solid, they get outright humiliated and exposed in the playoffs every year. Starting off every playoff run with an embarrassing loss on their home floor (I was there in Jurassic Park for almost all of them). Getting swept by the Wizards (I had tickets to game 1). The series wins against Indiana and Miami being the most disgusting poopy playoff basketball of all-time. Having to call Paul Pierce the King in the North, and then having to rename our city Lebronto. I was there in the stands when the Raps eliminated Milwaukee to go to the finals and danced in the streets as all that Raps humiliation got washed away.

But Wolves and Raps never really tanked. Both franchises tried their best to be respectful. It was a long road for Toronto, and it's been an even longer one for Minny (and we aren't there yet). So yeah. Utah, Indiana, Portland fans... extremely lucky!

[PeteyPablo]

if you lucky by getting Giannis or Curry sure but in most cases you are stuck forever.

It might have been 2014 when the Clippers Lob city beat the Warriors in the first round, then the following year Warriors won a championship.

Many attribute Jerry West for helping build the roster. Curry was all star potential but really took a leap in 2015. Of course Kerr came in and helped the locker room and culture as well.

[dc]

if you lucky by getting Giannis or Curry sure but in most cases you are stuck forever.

It might have been 2014 when the Clippers Lob city beat the Warriors in the first round, then the following year Warriors won a championship.

Many attribute Jerry West for helping build the roster. Curry was all star potential but really took a leap in 2015. Of course Kerr came in and helped the locker room and culture as well.

West helped get the Warriors ownership out of their "comfort zone" by telling them they needed to move on from Monta Ellis and put a proper SG next to Curry. Initially, Lacob thought he had a winning combination with Curry, David Lee and Monta. West told him that core was never going to cut it if wanted to REALLY win (vs. just being entertaining). He pushed to draft Klay to be said SG. Then when the team was considering trading Klay for Love, West threatened to resign if they went thru with the trade.

The Lob City Clippers had an excellent Top 4 with Prime Blake, Prime DeAndre, Redick and CP3. But they literally had no depth behind those guys and all Doc did as GM was to bring in guys at the end of their rope like Paul Pierce and Turkoglu. If the Clippers had a better GM who could bring in the proper depth (particularly at wing), they would've been legit title contenders. But they had no depth. After playing brilliantly in a 7 game series vs. the defending champ Spurs, they ran out of gas after they went up 3-1 vs. the Rockets.

[Pointgod]

Success means different things to different fanbases and NBA ownerships.

But for teams that have a goal for competing for a championship, tearing it all down and starting over is often the only option.

Teams like the Miami Heat that rebuilt without ever being completely terrible are outliers. It's unrealistic to expect every franchise to be able to do that, and in fact it's impossible for more than one or two teams to rebuild that way because there are a limited amount of stars even available to sign or trade for.

Denver is another example people use of a team that didn't do a traditional tank job. However, their model of drafting a 2 time MVP with the 41st pick is not exactly a repeatable process.

The best way to win a title is to have a top 5 player in the league. There are different ways to accomplish this. Some teams are in desirable locations and attract via free agency (Lakers, Warriors with Durant, Miami), trade (toronto) or draft (Bucks, warriors with Curry, Mavericks). Top 5 players are rarely available for trade so the Toronto situation doesn't occur very often. Most teams are also not located in LA, NY or Miami so free agency is often not a great option either. Therefore the draft is generally the best way for most teams to acquire a MVP caliber players. If you look at the top 10-15 players in the league right now:
Giannis (#15)
Luka (#3)
Jokic (#41)
Curry (#7)
Durant (#2)
Lebron (#1)
Embiid (#3)
Tatum (#3)
Kawhi (#15)
Harden (#3)
Anthony Davis (#1)
Booker (#13)

A majority of the best players in the league were drafted in the top 10, often top 5
Even if you look at the best young players, a majority were selected in teh top 5 of the draft.
Morant (#2)
Trae Young (#5)
Zion (#1)
SGA (#13)
Anthony Edwards (#1)
Lamelo (#3)

In summary, you need an MVP candidate to win a title. The best for most teams to get an MVP candidate is through the draft. The best way to draft an MVP candidate is get a top 10 pick (top 5 is better). Therefore a restart is often the best way to eventually contend for a title.

Of the top 15 players that you listed only the bolded spent all their years with the team that drafted them before winning the chip. Lebron is weird because he won with Lakers, Heat and Cavs as a free agent. Kwahi won with the Raptors post trade. Durant was a free agent. Davis won a championship after a trade. If Harden wins one it will be through trade or free agency. Getting a top 10–15 player through trade or free agency also seems like a decent path to championships. I’m not buying that the easiest path to a title is blowing it up.

[dc]

Cleveland has a done a good job of re-setting after LeBron's second departure. Altman made some clumsy decisions at first like the botched hire of Beihlin, but has built a pretty solid roster that should ave made the playoffs last year if not for a rash of injuries to all their ball-handlers not named Garland.

It's funny how much better this reset went than their previous post-LeBron reset which included choosing Tristan Thompsn and Dion Waiters at the #4 in consecutive seasons and Anthony Bennet with the #1 pick.

Well, keep in mind the reset after the 1st Lebron departure still got them Kyrie and Love, which is what helped lure Lebron back. People give a lot of grief to Tristan Thompson, but at his peak he was very effective in his role. People may not give it style points, but the Cavs tanking between 2010-2014 effectively made them an attractive destination for Lebron again.

I mean, you can basically think of it as Lebron just leaving for a bit so they could be bad enough to get him some help in the lottery. And I'm not even joking about that because Lebron, starting when he was 18, was so good, so early that he prevented the Cavs from picking in the high lotto again with him there, making it harder for them to put a good supporting cast around him.

But I agree that this current rebuild is much better....if you remove Lebron from the equation.

[Warriors Analyst]

Cleveland has a done a good job of re-setting after LeBron's second departure. Altman made some clumsy decisions at first like the botched hire of Beihlin, but has built a pretty solid roster that should ave made the playoffs last year if not for a rash of injuries to all their ball-handlers not named Garland.

It's funny how much better this reset went than their previous post-LeBron reset which included choosing Tristan Thompsn and Dion Waiters at the #4 in consecutive seasons and Anthony Bennet with the #1 pick.

Well, keep in mind the reset after the 1st Lebron departure still got them Kyrie and Love, which is what helped lure Lebron back. People give a lot of grief to Tristan Thompson, but at his peak he was very effective in his role. People may not give it style points, but the Cavs tanking between 2010-2014 effectively made them an attractive destination for Lebron again.

I mean, you can basically think of it as Lebron just leaving for a bit so they could be bad enough to get him some help in the lottery. And I'm not even joking about that because Lebron, starting when he was 18, was so good, so early that he prevented the Cavs from picking in the high lotto again with him there, making it harder for them to put a good supporting cast around him.

But I agree that this current rebuild is much better....if you remove Lebron from the equation.

Yeah, in retrospect I was being harsh on Thompson there. But I still don't think they did the greatest job in the post-Lebron era in 2011, it feels to me more like they stumbled into their luck by being as bad as they were. The timing lined up quite well for them quite well too in regards to having Wiggins before the shine started to wear off of him and Bennet only a year removed from a bad rookie season and no two seasons in.

[Jadoogar]

Success means different things to different fanbases and NBA ownerships.

But for teams that have a goal for competing for a championship, tearing it all down and starting over is often the only option.

Teams like the Miami Heat that rebuilt without ever being completely terrible are outliers. It's unrealistic to expect every franchise to be able to do that, and in fact it's impossible for more than one or two teams to rebuild that way because there are a limited amount of stars even available to sign or trade for.

Denver is another example people use of a team that didn't do a traditional tank job. However, their model of drafting a 2 time MVP with the 41st pick is not exactly a repeatable process.

The best way to win a title is to have a top 5 player in the league. There are different ways to accomplish this. Some teams are in desirable locations and attract via free agency (Lakers, Warriors with Durant, Miami), trade (toronto) or draft (Bucks, warriors with Curry, Mavericks). Top 5 players are rarely available for trade so the Toronto situation doesn't occur very often. Most teams are also not located in LA, NY or Miami so free agency is often not a great option either. Therefore the draft is generally the best way for most teams to acquire a MVP caliber players. If you look at the top 10-15 players in the league right now:
Giannis (#15)
Luka (#3)
Jokic (#41)
Curry (#7)
Durant (#2)
Lebron (#1)
Embiid (#3)
Tatum (#3)
Kawhi (#15)
Harden (#3)
Anthony Davis (#1)
Booker (#13)

A majority of the best players in the league were drafted in the top 10, often top 5
Even if you look at the best young players, a majority were selected in teh top 5 of the draft.
Morant (#2)
Trae Young (#5)
Zion (#1)
SGA (#13)
Anthony Edwards (#1)
Lamelo (#3)

In summary, you need an MVP candidate to win a title. The best for most teams to get an MVP candidate is through the draft. The best way to draft an MVP candidate is get a top 10 pick (top 5 is better). Therefore a restart is often the best way to eventually contend for a title.

Of the top 15 players that you listed only the bolded spent all their years with the team that drafted them before winning the chip. Lebron is weird because he won with Lakers, Heat and Cavs as a free agent. Kwahi won with the Raptors post trade. Durant was a free agent. Davis won a championship after a trade. If Harden wins one it will be through trade or free agency. Getting a top 10–15 player through trade or free agency also seems like a decent path to championships. I’m not buying that the easiest path to a title is blowing it up.

The ones you outlined were "traded" to marquee franchises (aside from Kawhi). If you're Utah or Minnesota, you know a star is not going to force a trade to your team. Building through the draft is the best way (not only way) for small market teams to create contenders.

[bkohler]

It is interesting to me that Utah is being considered in the same breath as the tanking Sixers and the Thunder just because of the number of picks they've gathered. The word from the Jazz beat writers is they consider this a one-year rebuild and will attempt to utilize cap space and those picks to be competitive in 2023.

Even this year, they've yet to move on from their veterans and still boast a team that might be fighting for that last play-in spot. (I think they should move them and be bad this year, personally).

But I don't understand where the idea that the Jazz is entering a multiple-year process-like tank. I think they deemed their two corner pieces to be too flawed (overpaid / peaked / too small/likely to leave / etc.) to build around and are moving on. Danny Aigne's MO is to try and build a competitive team while attempting to rebuild and retool, which makes the Markkanen and Sexton parts make more sense, IMO.

[bkohler]

It is interesting to me that Utah is being considered in the same breath as the tanking Sixers and the Thunder just because of the number of picks they've gathered. The word from the Jazz beat writers is they consider this a one-year rebuild and will attempt to utilize cap space and those picks to be competitive in 2023.

Even this year, they've yet to move on from their veterans and still boast a team that might be fighting for that last play-in spot. (I think they should move them and be bad this year, personally).

But I don't understand where the idea that the Jazz is entering a multiple-year process-like tank. I think they deemed their two corner pieces to be too flawed (overpaid / peaked / too small/likely to leave / etc.) to build around and are moving on. Danny Aigne's MO is to try and build a competitive team while attempting to rebuild and retool, which makes the Markkanen and Sexton parts make more sense, IMO.

This all said if we all of the sudden use our Vets to acquire Duncan Robinson, Bertans, and others for picks then sure... multi-year rebuild here we come.

I think the difference is the intent - do you plan on being bad for long or just need a year or two to reset your roster. Those are very different things imo

[Jadoogar]

It is interesting to me that Utah is being considered in the same breath as the tanking Sixers and the Thunder just because of the number of picks they've gathered. The word from the Jazz beat writers is they consider this a one-year rebuild and will attempt to utilize cap space and those picks to be competitive in 2023.
.

Unless they draft a transcendent superstar who is good right away (Luka/Lebron type), they will absolutely not be competitive in 2023.
This is going to be a multi year rebuilding project.

[BK_2020]

It is interesting to me that Utah is being considered in the same breath as the tanking Sixers and the Thunder just because of the number of picks they've gathered. The word from the Jazz beat writers is they consider this a one-year rebuild and will attempt to utilize cap space and those picks to be competitive in 2023.

Even this year, they've yet to move on from their veterans and still boast a team that might be fighting for that last play-in spot. (I think they should move them and be bad this year, personally).

But I don't understand where the idea that the Jazz is entering a multiple-year process-like tank. I think they deemed their two corner pieces to be too flawed (overpaid / peaked / too small/likely to leave / etc.) to build around and are moving on. Danny Aigne's MO is to try and build a competitive team while attempting to rebuild and retool, which makes the Markkanen and Sexton parts make more sense, IMO.

Does Utah even have cap space? If they waive Conley they are still only like $10 mil. under the cap.

[benson13]

How does one consider a successful season? Is it just winning it all, or is it also winning 48+ games for like 4+ years or so?
Not a few are saying Utah was right to just blow it up but how many teams really have risen from the ashes after getting rid of all their assets?
I remember the Bulls deliberately letting MJ, Phil, Pippen go... created cap space and Tim Duncan didn't even bother to visit them.
Sixers with what 5 straight lottery picks?
OKC? Clippers with the Lob City? I can think of just Boston who went to the recent finals, then....?
Then I think of the Spurs, Mavs, Heat, even the Lakers holding on to Kobe...
Was Golden State consider a rebuild? from Ellis? seriously? Is there Karma involved when you cheat and abuse the system?
Building teams naturally like the Bucks, Toronto then the mentioned teams who let their aging stars retire. Of course there is only one team who will win it all every season.

The Warriors definitely rebuilt, but they didn't hit the reset button. They tried to stay competitive and even signed David Lee and Iggy.

I can't think of any instance in the recent past where a team dismantled everything, shipped out all their good players, started over, and had it lead to a championship. More often than not, it seems to turn into a repeated cycle of sucking, resetting, and rebuilding.

[bkohler]

It is interesting to me that Utah is being considered in the same breath as the tanking Sixers and the Thunder just because of the number of picks they've gathered. The word from the Jazz beat writers is they consider this a one-year rebuild and will attempt to utilize cap space and those picks to be competitive in 2023.

Even this year, they've yet to move on from their veterans and still boast a team that might be fighting for that last play-in spot. (I think they should move them and be bad this year, personally).

But I don't understand where the idea that the Jazz is entering a multiple-year process-like tank. I think they deemed their two corner pieces to be too flawed (overpaid / peaked / too small/likely to leave / etc.) to build around and are moving on. Danny Aigne's MO is to try and build a competitive team while attempting to rebuild and retool, which makes the Markkanen and Sexton parts make more sense, IMO.

Does Utah even have cap space? If they waive Conley they are still only like $10 mil. under the cap.

They will likely have 35M in space with Conley on the roster; they could get to 63M by waiving Conley and if Clarkson, THT, and Gay declined their player option. If they move some of the Vets for not 'win now' pieces but players like Vanderbilt, they could have a competitive roster in 2023-2024. I'm not saying they're making the playoffs, but I don't know if it's a tank to the bottom season once again.

You could have a lineup of:
Sexton
FA
Fontecchio
Lauri
Vanderbilt
2023 Lottery Pick
Abbaji
Kessler
Bolmaro

That's not winning a playoff series, but it's probably not bottom 5 in the league either.

Again, personally, I actually think a multi-year thank is better for them, but that's not the signal they've been putting out.

[BK_2020]

It is interesting to me that Utah is being considered in the same breath as the tanking Sixers and the Thunder just because of the number of picks they've gathered. The word from the Jazz beat writers is they consider this a one-year rebuild and will attempt to utilize cap space and those picks to be competitive in 2023.

Even this year, they've yet to move on from their veterans and still boast a team that might be fighting for that last play-in spot. (I think they should move them and be bad this year, personally).

But I don't understand where the idea that the Jazz is entering a multiple-year process-like tank. I think they deemed their two corner pieces to be too flawed (overpaid / peaked / too small/likely to leave / etc.) to build around and are moving on. Danny Aigne's MO is to try and build a competitive team while attempting to rebuild and retool, which makes the Markkanen and Sexton parts make more sense, IMO.

Does Utah even have cap space? If they waive Conley they are still only like $10 mil. under the cap.

They will likely have 35M in space with Conley on the roster; they could get to 63M by waiving Conley and if Clarkson, THT, and Gay declined their player option. If they move some of the Vets for not 'win now' pieces but players like Vanderbilt, they could have a competitive roster in 2023-2024. I'm not saying they're making the playoffs, but I don't know if it's a tank to the bottom season once again.

You could have a lineup of:
Sexton
FA
Fontecchio
Lauri
Vanderbilt
2023 Lottery Pick
Abbaji
Kessler
Bolmaro

That's not winning a playoff series, but it's probably not bottom 5 in the league either.

Again, personally, I actually think a multi-year thank is better for them, but that's not the signal they've been putting out.

I have them at $114 mil after waiving Conley assuming all the PO are picked up and they don't decline TO for Beasley and guys on the rookie scale. This is before adding another $12-14 mil. for 2023 1st round picks.
Am I missing something?

[PeteyPablo]

if you lucky by getting Giannis or Curry sure but in most cases you are stuck forever.

It might have been 2014 when the Clippers Lob city beat the Warriors in the first round, then the following year Warriors won a championship.

Many attribute Jerry West for helping build the roster. Curry was all star potential but really took a leap in 2015. Of course Kerr came in and helped the locker room and culture as well.

West helped get the Warriors ownership out of their "comfort zone" by telling them they needed to move on from Monta Ellis and put a proper SG next to Curry. Initially, Lacob thought he had a winning combination with Curry, David Lee and Monta. West told him that core was never going to cut it if wanted to REALLY win (vs. just being entertaining). He pushed to draft Klay to be said SG. Then when the team was considering trading Klay for Love, West threatened to resign if they went thru with the trade.

The Lob City Clippers had an excellent Top 4 with Prime Blake, Prime DeAndre, Redick and CP3. But they literally had no depth behind those guys and all Doc did as GM was to bring in guys at the end of their rope like Paul Pierce and Turkoglu. If the Clippers had a better GM who could bring in the proper depth (particularly at wing), they would've been legit title contenders. But they had no depth. After playing brilliantly in a 7 game series vs. the defending champ Spurs, they ran out of gas after they went up 3-1 vs. the Rockets.

Lob City era could never get a proper wing and depth. CP3 always had to play extended minutes to keep the team from falling apart. Doc Rivers had Ballmer's ear for a few year until Ballmer hired Jerry West , a proper consultant.

[ShootersShoot]

How does one consider a successful season? Is it just winning it all, or is it also winning 48+ games for like 4+ years or so?
Not a few are saying Utah was right to just blow it up but how many teams really have risen from the ashes after getting rid of all their assets?
I remember the Bulls deliberately letting MJ, Phil, Pippen go... created cap space and Tim Duncan didn't even bother to visit them.
Sixers with what 5 straight lottery picks?
OKC? Clippers with the Lob City? I can think of just Boston who went to the recent finals, then....?
Then I think of the Spurs, Mavs, Heat, even the Lakers holding on to Kobe...
Was Golden State consider a rebuild? from Ellis? seriously? Is there Karma involved when you cheat and abuse the system?
Building teams naturally like the Bucks, Toronto then the mentioned teams who let their aging stars retire. Of course there is only one team who will win it all every season.

The Warriors definitely rebuilt, but they didn't hit the reset button. They tried to stay competitive and even signed David Lee and Iggy.

I can't think of any instance in the recent past where a team dismantled everything, shipped out all their good players, started over, and had it lead to a championship. More often than not, it seems to turn into a repeated cycle of sucking, resetting, and rebuilding.

They didnt win a championship, but the current celts are contenders after trading their aging HOFers for picks in 2013.