Truth or False: James Harden is currently a top 10 player again?

[HotelVitale]

Most folks aren’t even putting him in the all-star game. How is top 10 even a discussion? I’m surprised he even got 15% of the votes here.

He is third in guards in the eastern conference voting. He is well and truly going to be in the all star game. Do a bit research. He is only behind Kyrie and Mitchell. Ahead of Brunson and Jaylen Brown

Fan voting is your argument? Ha! Look at the media ballots from the good analysts. He’s not on them.

Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum, Brown, Ja, Curry, Jokic, Mitchell, Durant. There’s 10 for you and Harden isn’t even close to being next. Do a bit of research.

I came to make a post critical of Harden but have to add that you just listed exactly one guard in the east (Mitchell), so not super relevant to the discussion that was happening. If you’re moving goal posts from ‘will he be an all star’ back to ‘is he top 10 overall,’ cool, but you have to at least say that. Esp since you’re the one who brought the asg thing to begin with.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Most folks aren’t even putting him in the all-star game. How is top 10 even a discussion? I’m surprised he even got 15% of the votes here.

He is third in guards in the eastern conference voting. He is well and truly going to be in the all star game. Do a bit research. He is only behind Kyrie and Mitchell. Ahead of Brunson and Jaylen Brown

Fan voting is your argument? Ha! Look at the media ballots from the good analysts. He’s not on them.

Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum, Brown, Ja, Curry, Jokic, Mitchell, Durant. There’s 10 for you and Harden isn’t even close to being next. Do a bit of research.

harden has been better than all guards besides luka, and on par with ja morant

but because they hate harden they wont choose him for all star or all nba

dont worry the players are gonna get those voting privledges back in the next cba. Thats why draymond and stephen a smith has beef early in 2022

[NBA4Lyfe]

He is third in guards in the eastern conference voting. He is well and truly going to be in the all star game. Do a bit research. He is only behind Kyrie and Mitchell. Ahead of Brunson and Jaylen Brown

Fan voting is your argument? Ha! Look at the media ballots from the good analysts. He’s not on them.

Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum, Brown, Ja, Curry, Jokic, Mitchell, Durant. There’s 10 for you and Harden isn’t even close to being next. Do a bit of research.

I came to make a post critical of Harden but have to add that you just listed exactly one guard in the east (Mitchell), so not super relevant to the discussion that was happening. If you’re moving goal posts from ‘will he be an all star’ back to ‘is he top 10 overall,’ cool, but you have to at least say that. Esp since you’re the one who brought the asg thing to begin with.

the goal posts have always been moved on harden to rob him of awards, its the same thing they are doing to embiid now

[HotelVitale]

As a Philly fan I watch most Sixers games (probably 2/3 of them) and something always holds me back from having real confidence in Harden, that I also think prevents him from being a serious top ten candidate. I think this the crux of the problem: he’s very good at taking advantage of and coaxing defensive miscues (his vision at this point lets him hit EVERYONE who’s open with passes, he baits defenders into guessing the wrong way on drives, etc) and still good at creating small advantages (a step in the defender with his crossover, a pocket pass to let a close out attack happen, etc); but at this pt in his career he can’t really impose his will or make things happen all the time when the other team plays competent defense.

E.g. if the defense doesn’t foul him and doesn’t crowd him on a drive but just rotates nicely, or if a perimeter defender doesn’t bite too hard on a cross and give him a huge lane, he usually ends up with only a really hard shot—a runner or bad-angle layup, or one of his patented long step backs. When he makes those it’s great but they’re not sustainable and overall he’s not shooting well on that stuff (because it’s stupid hard). He’s trying to adjust by shooting more from the midrange and kicking it to the perimeter shooters more often when he gets half-open driving lanes, but it’s still not terrific offense that gets you a shot you like whenever you need it to. It feels more like decent offense that’s inherently prone to streakiness, and it also doesn’t maximize the other pieces on the Sixers particularly well.

Couple that with shaky defense and effort that comes and goes and I don’t think you can think about calling him top 10, no matter what the stats say. Tough player to rank at this point, hope people are able to balance the stuff he can do really well—elite vision and control/organization of offense, can still create something from nothing all day, length+strength on both ends—with this kind of semi-reliability and limited offensive power I was trying to describe.

[NBA4Lyfe]

As a Philly fan I watch most Sixers games (probably 2/3 of them) and something always holds me back from having real confidence in Harden, that I also think prevents him from being a serious top ten candidate. I think this the crux of the problem: he’s very good at taking advantage of and coaxing defensive miscues (his vision at this point lets him hit EVERYONE who’s open with passes, he baits defenders into guessing the wrong way on drives, etc) and still good at creating small advantages (a step in the defender with his crossover, a pocket pass to let a close out attack happen, etc); but at this pt in his career he can’t really impose his will or make things happen all the time when the other team plays competent defense.

E.g. if the defense doesn’t foul him and doesn’t crowd him on a drive but just rotates nicely, or if a perimeter defender doesn’t bite too hard on a cross and give him a huge lane, he usually ends up with only a really hard shot—a runner or bad-angle layup, or one of his patented long step backs. When he makes those it’s great but they’re not sustainable and overall he’s not shooting well on that stuff (because it’s stupid hard). He’s trying to adjust by shooting more from the midrange and kicking it to the perimeter shooters more often when he gets half-open driving lanes, but it’s still not terrific offense that gets you a shot you like whenever you need it to. It feels more like decent offense that’s inherently prone to streakiness, and it also doesn’t maximize the other pieces on the Sixers particularly well.

Couple that with shaky defense and effort that comes and goes and I don’t think you can think about calling him top 10, no matter what the stats say. Tough player to rank at this point, hope people are able to balance the stuff he can do really well—elite vision and control/organization of offense, can still create something from nothing all day, length+strength on both ends—with this kind of semi-reliability and limited offensive power I was trying to describe.

i feel the same way about embiid, in close late games from the little i have seen of him in 2 years , he just either becomes fatigued, or aloof in crunch time

[HotelVitale]

As a Philly fan I watch most Sixers games (probably 2/3 of them) and something always holds me back from having real confidence in Harden, that I also think prevents him from being a serious top ten candidate. I think this the crux of the problem: he’s very good at taking advantage of and coaxing defensive miscues (his vision at this point lets him hit EVERYONE who’s open with passes, he baits defenders into guessing the wrong way on drives, etc) and still good at creating small advantages (a step in the defender with his crossover, a pocket pass to let a close out attack happen, etc); but at this pt in his career he can’t really impose his will or make things happen all the time when the other team plays competent defense.

E.g. if the defense doesn’t foul him and doesn’t crowd him on a drive but just rotates nicely, or if a perimeter defender doesn’t bite too hard on a cross and give him a huge lane, he usually ends up with only a really hard shot—a runner or bad-angle layup, or one of his patented long step backs. When he makes those it’s great but they’re not sustainable and overall he’s not shooting well on that stuff (because it’s stupid hard). He’s trying to adjust by shooting more from the midrange and kicking it to the perimeter shooters more often when he gets half-open driving lanes, but it’s still not terrific offense that gets you a shot you like whenever you need it to. It feels more like decent offense that’s inherently prone to streakiness, and it also doesn’t maximize the other pieces on the Sixers particularly well.

Couple that with shaky defense and effort that comes and goes and I don’t think you can think about calling him top 10, no matter what the stats say. Tough player to rank at this point, hope people are able to balance the stuff he can do really well—elite vision and control/organization of offense, can still create something from nothing all day, length+strength on both ends—with this kind of semi-reliability and limited offensive power I was trying to describe.

i feel the same way about embiid, in close late games from the little i have seen of him in 2 years , he just either becomes fatigued, or aloof in crunch time

Facts. Though I think Embiid’s issue is more mental and Harden’s is more just who he is now and his limitations. Specifically I think Embiid’s inability to deal with double teams (esp those that come late or right as he’s making his move) has caused him to act erratically and lack confidence in late game situations in the PO, even though he physically has answers for everything the defense can throw at him. He doesn’t feel grounded or in control and makes things much harder on himself because of that extra panic.

It’s more frustrating with Joel because he really should have no problem doing his thing and taking what the defense gives him (a short pull-up, a drive and likely a foul, or a little skip pass to the open perimeter guy), but he just can’t. Doesn’t process the game that way and doesn’t have the handle and passing for it atm.

The big hope is that Joel this PO won’t have to do that late in games since Harden can run pnr and get Embiid into good spots to attack quickly or shoot his pull ups. Doc has been reluctant to run too much of it but it seems too obvious not to implement as the go-to this post-season.

[ProcessDoctor]

No he's not. There's a lot of guys who's are having great seasons. Here's the players I think are clearly better than Harden.

1 Giannis
2. Luka
3. Jokic
4. Joel Emiid
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Kevin Durant
7. Stephen Curry
8. JA Morant
9. Zion Williamson
10. Damian Lilliard
11. Donovan Mitchell

Players that are closer to his level, but a bit better than him

12. Devin Brooker
13. Paul George
14. Pascal Siakam
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Jaylen Brown


So this would put Harden around the 17-22 range. In range of someone like Tyrese Halliburton, Demar Derozan, Kyrie Irving, Luari Markkanen etc. He's playing much better than he did last season, where he looked washed. However there's too many players who's having great seasons.

In the same tier as Pascal, Mitchell, and Jimmy.

Hell no is he having a worse season than LIllard, Booker, George, and Jaylen. He might not be top 10, but I think it's safe to put him in the top 15 right now.

[Blame Rasho]

Playoffs don’t matter in this discussion when ranking players, if they did jokic certainly wouldnt be on pace to winning his 3rd straight mvp after almost being swept in the 1st round last year when he won it.

Im strictly saying will James harden make an all nba team this year. I could care less about the playoffs

Jokic was the best player on the floor in the playoffs last year. His team lost...but his was spectacular.

STOP Jokic was literally taken off the court late in the 4th quarter of multiple playoff games because Poole and curry we’re destroying him on switches

Playoffs don’t matter in context to mvp and all nba selections

All nba and mvp selections are made before the playoffs but I guess you don’t know that and want to have a hissy fit for everyone to see and read about.

Just say you hate Jokic, people will at least respect you for it instead is sugarcoating it.

He is a great player no matter what you want to say about him.

[NZB2323]

See this kind of response is what I’m talking about. You see the stat but because it doesn’t fit your narrative you don’t accept it. This is why harden is not a 3 time mvp and hasn’t made all nba in 3 years. This bias among certain or most nba voters hurts players like harden in the long run. And cost them potential supermax contracts

What narrative would that be? I watch him play every game. I wouldn't say he gets doubled anywhere near as frequently as Embiid, so I'm questioning what they consider a double team. Their criteria seems extremely loose based on the percentages they have for most of those guys.

but the numbers say he DOES, so it doesnt matter what you "THINK", i dont blame you though, nba voters moved the goalpost on harden for years to rob him of accolades

Yeah, NBA votes move the goal posts on Harden so often that they voted him MVP in 2018, voted him all-NBA 1st team 6 times, and voted him to be on the top 75 list.

[NZB2323]

Fan voting is your argument? Ha! Look at the media ballots from the good analysts. He’s not on them.

Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum, Brown, Ja, Curry, Jokic, Mitchell, Durant. There’s 10 for you and Harden isn’t even close to being next. Do a bit of research.

I came to make a post critical of Harden but have to add that you just listed exactly one guard in the east (Mitchell), so not super relevant to the discussion that was happening. If you’re moving goal posts from ‘will he be an all star’ back to ‘is he top 10 overall,’ cool, but you have to at least say that. Esp since you’re the one who brought the asg thing to begin with.

the goal posts have always been moved on harden to rob him of awards, its the same thing they are doing to embiid now

If the goal posts are always moved to rob Harden of awards then how did win MVP, make 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 10 all-star teams, 6th man, and top 75 all time?

The last year he didn’t win an award was 2011.

[NBA4Lyfe]

I came to make a post critical of Harden but have to add that you just listed exactly one guard in the east (Mitchell), so not super relevant to the discussion that was happening. If you’re moving goal posts from ‘will he be an all star’ back to ‘is he top 10 overall,’ cool, but you have to at least say that. Esp since you’re the one who brought the asg thing to begin with.

the goal posts have always been moved on harden to rob him of awards, its the same thing they are doing to embiid now

If the goal posts are always moved to rob Harden of awards then how did win MVP, make 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 10 all-star teams, 6th man, and top 75 all time?

The last year he didn’t win an award was 2011.

harden according to 538 raptor should have won mvp from 2018-2020 AND IT WASNT CLOSE

harden did not make an all nba team in 2016 and 2021 because of moving the goalposts when he was deserving, and the media has no control of the all star game thats the only place they cant screw harden.

[NBA4Lyfe]

What narrative would that be? I watch him play every game. I wouldn't say he gets doubled anywhere near as frequently as Embiid, so I'm questioning what they consider a double team. Their criteria seems extremely loose based on the percentages they have for most of those guys.

but the numbers say he DOES, so it doesnt matter what you "THINK", i dont blame you though, nba voters moved the goalpost on harden for years to rob him of accolades

Yeah, NBA votes move the goal posts on Harden so often that they voted him MVP in 2018, voted him all-NBA 1st team 6 times, and voted him to be on the top 75 list.

harden according to basketball reference is the most accomplished guard of his era sans cp3, leads all guards sans cp3 in bpm career, career win shares, career win shares per 48 and vorp. How on earth could they leave harden off the nba top 75. He was probably one of the easiest selections

[NBA4Lyfe]

Jokic was the best player on the floor in the playoffs last year. His team lost...but his was spectacular.

STOP Jokic was literally taken off the court late in the 4th quarter of multiple playoff games because Poole and curry we’re destroying him on switches

Playoffs don’t matter in context to mvp and all nba selections

All nba and mvp selections are made before the playoffs but I guess you don’t know that and want to have a hissy fit for everyone to see and read about.

Just say you hate Jokic, people will at least respect you for it instead is sugarcoating it.

He is a great player no matter what you want to say about him.

im not hating jokic im just saying that playoffs have no bearing on who wins mvp or SHOULDNT, but it did with harden

jokic was almost swept in the first round last year and is currently the front runner for mvp this year. Voter fatigue only applies to harden and embiid i guess. Usually the media doesnt reward you with multiple mvps even if you are deserving unless you win in the playoffs. At least thats the excuse we heard for why harden didnt win 3 mvps

[NBA4Lyfe]

No he's not. There's a lot of guys who's are having great seasons. Here's the players I think are clearly better than Harden.

1 Giannis
2. Luka
3. Jokic
4. Joel Emiid
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Kevin Durant
7. Stephen Curry
8. JA Morant
9. Zion Williamson
10. Damian Lilliard
11. Donovan Mitchell

Players that are closer to his level, but a bit better than him

12. Devin Brooker
13. Paul George
14. Pascal Siakam
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Jaylen Brown


So this would put Harden around the 17-22 range. In range of someone like Tyrese Halliburton, Demar Derozan, Kyrie Irving, Luari Markkanen etc. He's playing much better than he did last season, where he looked washed. However there's too many players who's having great seasons.

SGA should be somewhere. LeBron and AD when healthy are at least as good as if not better than Harden.

I forgot to include SGA. My mistake. He's is around the 8-11 range. So that makes James Harden in the 18-23rd range. Far as Lebron, he is simply padding his stats on a losing team. There's a reason I didn't include him.

hardens advanced stats are better than all those guards you just named

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

leads all those guys in win shares per 48, and is closing in on them in box plus minus

[Patsfan1081]

SGA should be somewhere. LeBron and AD when healthy are at least as good as if not better than Harden.

I forgot to include SGA. My mistake. He's is around the 8-11 range. So that makes James Harden in the 18-23rd range. Far as Lebron, he is simply padding his stats on a losing team. There's a reason I didn't include him.

hardens advanced stats are better than all those guards you just named

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

leads all those guys in win shares per 48, and is closing in on them in box plus minus

He’s missed 1/3rd of the games this season. Win shares is a nice stat, but there’s a reason why you’re using per 48….

[f4p]

No he's not and in playoffs you'll see why

Playoffs don’t matter in this discussion when ranking players, if they did jokic certainly wouldnt be on pace to winning his 3rd straight mvp after almost being swept in the 1st round last year when he won it.

Im strictly saying will James harden make an all nba team this year. I could care less about the playoffs

Strange thing to say since playoffs are usually all that matter. A lot of great players try to conserve body and energy during the regular season or even skip games. Jokic more than deserves his status as a top regular season and playoff performer. Basically any all time great is being judged by his performance in the playoffs and ability to carry his team.

Also regular season MVP has nothing to do with playoffs anyway... Harden's game/stats and shooting are usually worse in the playoffs than during the regular season.

most players' stats are worse in the playoffs.

[Bum Adebayo]

He has finally surpassed Melton as our 2nd best player, I think he is just top 20-ish though.

Harden is 5th in total raptor

Watch at what happens when hardens stats are qualify eligible. He will probably be ranked higher than embiid on bbref nba mvp tracker

Embiid **** all over Harden, it's ok if you like Harden and he is certaily playing much better in these last games, but Embiid is just on another level only reserved for the very best.

[NZB2323]

the goal posts have always been moved on harden to rob him of awards, its the same thing they are doing to embiid now

If the goal posts are always moved to rob Harden of awards then how did win MVP, make 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 10 all-star teams, 6th man, and top 75 all time?

The last year he didn’t win an award was 2011.

harden according to 538 raptor should have won mvp from 2018-2020 AND IT WASNT CLOSE

harden did not make an all nba team in 2016 and 2021 because of moving the goalposts when he was deserving, and the media has no control of the all star game thats the only place they cant screw harden.

If RAPTOR is the end all be all, then why did you make a thread saying Harden is a top 10 player if he isn’t top 10 in RAPTOR this season?

Also, in 2021 Harden violated league CoVID guidelines by reporting to a strip club instead of training camp, and then came into training camp out of shape and with no motivation. Does RAPTOR track how much it sucked to be his coaches and teammates in Houston?

2016 I’ll give you. He probably should have made it over Lowry.

[NZB2323]

but the numbers say he DOES, so it doesnt matter what you "THINK", i dont blame you though, nba voters moved the goalpost on harden for years to rob him of accolades

Yeah, NBA votes move the goal posts on Harden so often that they voted him MVP in 2018, voted him all-NBA 1st team 6 times, and voted him to be on the top 75 list.

harden according to basketball reference is the most accomplished guard of his era sans cp3, leads all guards sans cp3 in bpm career, career win shares, career win shares per 48 and vorp. How on earth could they leave harden off the nba top 75. He was probably one of the easiest selections

They could leave him off the top 75 list by moving the goal posts, which you claim they keep doing.

If they keep moving the goal posts for Harden too rob him of awards, how did he win MVP?

[NBA4Lyfe]

If the goal posts are always moved to rob Harden of awards then how did win MVP, make 6 all-NBA 1st teams, 10 all-star teams, 6th man, and top 75 all time?

The last year he didn’t win an award was 2011.

harden according to 538 raptor should have won mvp from 2018-2020 AND IT WASNT CLOSE

harden did not make an all nba team in 2016 and 2021 because of moving the goalposts when he was deserving, and the media has no control of the all star game thats the only place they cant screw harden.

If RAPTOR is the end all be all, then why did you make a thread saying Harden is a top 10 player if he isn’t top 10 in RAPTOR this season?

Also, in 2021 Harden violated league CoVID guidelines by reporting to a strip club instead of training camp, and then came into training camp out of shape and with no motivation. Does RAPTOR track how much it sucked to be his coaches and teammates in Houston?

2016 I’ll give you. He probably should have made it over Lowry.

james harden is currently 5th in total raptor, i dont count war because of games missed