NBA players are better than ever, despite what the legends say

[Pachinko_]

The only thing I miss from the old NBA is how seriously they were taking the regular season
Superstars were playing 82 games, joining the dunk contest, waiting for big rivalry games to prove something.
Nowadays they're just treading water waiting for the playoffs, if you buy tickets to watch two stars fight it out you have a 50% chance one if them is not gonna show up.

I had to wait for Serbia to play Greece in Belgrade last summer to finally watch Giannis and Jokic give it their best against each other, and it was awesome.

[DCasey91]

You are going overboard. Stop take a chill pill

These are my thoughts on this:

1. NBA specifically has one of if not the highest exclusivity when it comes to top sports. Height = smaller pool to pick from no matter how large the population is (See point number two which ties in).

2. More doesn’t necessarily mean better either. By and large sports are talent dependent. Pick a window of years within a decade and you’ll find a lull/rise in performance holistically.

3. Here are just some examples:
- US Men’s tennis 90’s into the 00’s and beyond. Huge difference of talent yet more people?
- Cricket 90’s vs 00’s massive score inflation (numerous ATG bowlers retired)
- UFC vs Pride Heavyweights. Not even close Pride >>> during 00’s
- NBA 98/00’s very weak depth wise, 70’s? Mixed not set in stone
- “ FAB 4”in Boxing, HW div in Ali’s Era. Not even close now, we are approaching half a century ago and for Ali a lot more.
- If you get the point, then you can basically go into any sport and find the high/lows for each decade.

4. NBA is talent “thin”. There’s a threshold I believe between skill/athleticism that other sports don’t incur because the game is predicated on height. Height has nothing to do with skill/athleticism or sports ability. I.E Westbrook won an MVP/Giannis won an MVP but honestly how skilled and talented are they really? Now in comparison terms like Football both wouldn’t come close to an MVP/Ballon’D’or.

5. And because it is talent thin the worlds top 50 let’s say look so much better than they actually are, because what is the competition really?. They can just rock up knowing there’s maybe 5 other people that can challenge their ranking.

6. Then you add in all the rules/violations/softening of the product into dilution then this is what you have.

7. NBA players are not better than ever, that is downright not true when you have to go into a broad stroke overview of the whole thing. Special players in all eras of sports exist and will continue and I agree the NBA and basketball community should not look down upon it either way. Because by the day Wilt’s performance look better and better by the minute.

I’m not disagreeing or agreeing players are better than ever (I mean you can find certain years where the top ten more than stacks up to this years top ten) it’s just basketball in general has a game mechanic problem (height and math exploitation) that cast doubts in my mind on a conclusion.

[JN61]

When players aren't allowed to defend offensice players will all look like gods.

You’re repeating the same myths that these older-heads would repeat

Today’s NBA defences are better than the 1990s. Their defensive schemes were primitive, and you had guys like Jordan going iso while all of the help defence was on the weak side.

Again, watch some game tape. The tape doesn’t lie

Not a myth.
You're conflating schemes with how the game is officiated. Better schemes now for sure on both ends. But the whistle grossly goes in favor of the offensive player now with little balance. I won't even get into the how many more HARD and cheap fouls there were then because it seems you watched a few videos on youtube and have suddenly become an authority on an era well before you were born.

Amen

[MavsDirk41]

Look at the defences that Jordan was facing during the 1987 NBA season. It doesn’t compare to the defences today.

Again, if Mitch Richmond could average 26 during the “tougher” 1990s, would he do better than James Harden, Durant and Luka today? Of course not

I think Jordan is the GOAT. Absolutely love him. Dude was an inspiration and he dominated his era like no one else. But Jordan played in a weaker less talented league, and that’s no one’s fault. Athletes get better over time, and teams get better. There’s no way Jordan is defeating the 2017 Warriors. No way at all

You call out old heads for yelling at clouds but you are talking about Jordan facing weaker defenses and a weaker league and you started watching the nba in 2000?

Lol just stop please. Players are lighting up the scoreboard everynight but defenses are better? The league is no better today. Do you have proof that its better? And the 96 Bulls might have beat the 2017 Warriors

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. 1980s NBA players were weaker and less talented than the current NBA players.

Players lighting up the scoreboard does not correlate to the defences today being worse than in the 1980s. It could simply be that players are far more offensively skilled, leading to them going off for 40 points. Back then, you’d struggle to find even 1 player who shot more than 90% from the free throw line. Today we have over a dozen players who consistently shoot over 90% on their free throws. And this is a free throw, where defence is completely irrelevant. These new guys are really really talented

The eye test doesn’t lie.

The 2017 Warriors would have run the 1996 Bulls out of the gym. Multiple three-point threats on the floor at the same time, and they’d make mincemeat of those Bulls. The Bulls didn’t have the offensive firepower to keep up with three 30 ppg scorers on the court at the same time, as well as an elite defence and a decent amount of role players.

1980s player were weaker and less talented than current players and i know this cause i watched youtube videos of games - lol ok man. I like how you know this but you only know this from watching tapes/videos of games. What is your point anyway? Luka is leading the nba in scoring and dude is not even in shape lol

When reading basketball reference about 90s Bulls did you read that they were the #1 defense in the nba? Harper, Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman were as good as any defensive foursome the nba has ever seen. Bulls push them to at least 7 if they dont win the series.

[MavsDirk41]

Absolutely agree with the OP. The NBA is obviously immensely talented right now, full of stars from different generations and also with high level role players. Players are more complete than ever. I don't think this notion is even debatable. It's a matter of logic.

Btw, I don't know if in 5 yrs it will be the same. Maybe this is a real special moment, because older guys like LeBron, Harden, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Butler, Kyrie, are still fantastic players - while you have new all timers at their peak, like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, and also others who are about to peak - Tatum, Doncic, Morant, etc.

After the old guard really declines in the next years, I don't know if the influx of potential superstars will make up for it. Maybe this is a truly unique moment.

But it is indeed unbalanced. The league needs to URGENTLY go back to giving defense some hope and some calls. It's absolutely getting out of control, also considering the travelling and carrying and stuff. They really need to push back a little.

But the fact rules are excessively relaxed absolutely doesn't account for all the incredible amount of superstar and medium talent on the league today. Obviously players are in general better than before, and there are more star players. And no, they aren't artificially manufactered by new rules. It just needs to be dialed back a little bit.

I mean, OP is right. The game in the 90s and 2000s was boring as ****, let's admit it. Timeouts the whole time, dribble, dribble, clank. It was simply weaker.

Missing some games is absolutely necessary. You can't look at the amount of injuries and think this is normal. The game is evidently much more taxing than before. Much harder to rest, either on defense or on offense.

What bothers is how conceived this new players are, and honestly, the obscene amount of money they make. It is annoying indeed.

But in general, OP is absolutely on point. And yes, it is annoying to see older players complain about it non stop. There's obviously some jealousy in it. Are players softer? In general, yes, they are. Society is. But they are also much better.

Watching players jack up 3s is way more exciting??

[DCasey91]

How much better is Ja Morant really? Fav prospect that year but he’s public enemy no 1 of why there’s a conflation with being better and straight out cheating.

If someone had big cahones they would straight up say he’s a cheat (which by the letter of the law he is by a mile).

[Lalouie]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

so what. people into the modern game are always starting threads like "what would bird do in today's game"?

in fact questioning the older stars' skills have become a realgm hobby and suffocate this board 20x more than visa versa

THE GAME AND THE RULES dictate how players develop and play. 6'3 dave bing was dunking to his elbow back in the 60s.

[JN61]

You’re repeating the same myths that these older-heads would repeat

Today’s NBA defences are better than the 1990s. Their defensive schemes were primitive, and you had guys like Jordan going iso while all of the help defence was on the weak side.

Again, watch some game tape. The tape doesn’t lie

Not a myth.
You're conflating schemes with how the game is officiated. Better schemes now for sure on both ends. But the whistle grossly goes in favor of the offensive player now with little balance. I won't even get into the how many more HARD and cheap fouls there were then because it seems you watched a few videos on youtube and have suddenly become an authority on an era well before you were born.

I can easily show you a compilation of hard fouls over the last 5 years. That’s not what we use to judge eras

I know you like to watch tape of the same 5 hard fouls committed by Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman, but that’s not what we use to judge eras.

And I’ve watched FULL playoff series. As well as regular season games. The physicality you speak of is completely overrated.

I remember back in 2000, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would claim that the current NBA players were too rough and brutish, while his era had more “finesse and skill.” He said this as an underhanded shot against Shaq, who was MVP at the time.

So they change their argument whenever it suits them.

Uhm. 70s used to be the era of finesse. you couldn't over power defender with strength because the rules. You are literally defeating your own points. League wasn't so lobsided offensive favoring but actively tried to hinder offensive players.

[Priest24]

Meanwhile the blocks,rebounds and steals records remain well beyond any current players reach.

[PedroFlu]

Absolutely agree with the OP. The NBA is obviously immensely talented right now, full of stars from different generations and also with high level role players. Players are more complete than ever. I don't think this notion is even debatable. It's a matter of logic.

Btw, I don't know if in 5 yrs it will be the same. Maybe this is a real special moment, because older guys like LeBron, Harden, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Butler, Kyrie, are still fantastic players - while you have new all timers at their peak, like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, and also others who are about to peak - Tatum, Doncic, Morant, etc.

After the old guard really declines in the next years, I don't know if the influx of potential superstars will make up for it. Maybe this is a truly unique moment.

But it is indeed unbalanced. The league needs to URGENTLY go back to giving defense some hope and some calls. It's absolutely getting out of control, also considering the travelling and carrying and stuff. They really need to push back a little.

But the fact rules are excessively relaxed absolutely doesn't account for all the incredible amount of superstar and medium talent on the league today. Obviously players are in general better than before, and there are more star players. And no, they aren't artificially manufactered by new rules. It just needs to be dialed back a little bit.

I mean, OP is right. The game in the 90s and 2000s was boring as ****, let's admit it. Timeouts the whole time, dribble, dribble, clank. It was simply weaker.

Missing some games is absolutely necessary. You can't look at the amount of injuries and think this is normal. The game is evidently much more taxing than before. Much harder to rest, either on defense or on offense.

What bothers is how conceived this new players are, and honestly, the obscene amount of money they make. It is annoying indeed.

But in general, OP is absolutely on point. And yes, it is annoying to see older players complain about it non stop. There's obviously some jealousy in it. Are players softer? In general, yes, they are. Society is. But they are also much better.

Watching players jack up 3s is way more exciting??

It's getting too far, I agree. But yes, I'd rather washed up as it is today in the RS, than ugly as it used to be. There are simply much more interesting teams to watch now.

And in playoffs things improve dramatically.

[og15]

You’re 100% correct. I agree with everything you’ve said here

NBA players should be better than ever. And they are

Certainly, but that doesn't also mean that the rules as well as the playstyle aren't more favorable to offenses than in the past. Even little clean ups like clear path fouls, those kinds of things are going to increase offense more than people think.

Fair enough. But that also goes in the other direction. The elimination of the Illegal Defence rules has made it easier for defences to run more sophisticated defensive schemes.

I see older-heads claim that Jordan could average 45 points today. That’s patently false. If he couldn’t do 45 in his era, there’s no way he could do it in a more talented league

The league having not overall talent doesn't prevent individual greatness. You're conflating too many things. Now, I don't think Jordan would average 45, even if he could it's just not likely going to be good basketball, but the league is more talented in ways that HELP individual high scorers, and a lot of coaches are happy with offense geared towards maximizing an individual guy on the ball if it makes sense for them and the type of team they have.

Lebron didn't get better at 38 years old than he was in his prime, but he's averaging scoring numbers and efficiency not far off, because he also has more space to work with, and the rules are nicer to offensive players.

Interestingly, playing with more talent yourself, especially the talent that the league has been trying to maximize, can help players be more effective, not less, despite everyone being more talented.

Players didn't get more talented on defense, and even if they did, they have less leeway. Ron Artest wouldn't be able to play more than 27 mpg defending the way he did when he played, and he was already a high foul guy when he played.

[pipfan]

I started watching the nba in the late 70's, and closely in the mid-80's (Chicago teenager-MJ hit town)

Today's players are CLEARLY more skilled than ever-there is absolutely no argument for that point
The style of play is also CERTAINLY more sophisticated now

But, I would also say the players are DEFINITELY softer today, and whine/flop more

[C_Alejandro]

You call out old heads for yelling at clouds but you are talking about Jordan facing weaker defenses and a weaker league and you started watching the nba in 2000?

Lol just stop please. Players are lighting up the scoreboard everynight but defenses are better? The league is no better today. Do you have proof that its better? And the 96 Bulls might have beat the 2017 Warriors

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. 1980s NBA players were weaker and less talented than the current NBA players.

Players lighting up the scoreboard does not correlate to the defences today being worse than in the 1980s. It could simply be that players are far more offensively skilled, leading to them going off for 40 points. Back then, you’d struggle to find even 1 player who shot more than 90% from the free throw line. Today we have over a dozen players who consistently shoot over 90% on their free throws. And this is a free throw, where defence is completely irrelevant. These new guys are really really talented

The eye test doesn’t lie.

The 2017 Warriors would have run the 1996 Bulls out of the gym. Multiple three-point threats on the floor at the same time, and they’d make mincemeat of those Bulls. The Bulls didn’t have the offensive firepower to keep up with three 30 ppg scorers on the court at the same time, as well as an elite defence and a decent amount of role players.

1980s player were weaker and less talented than current players and i know this cause i watched youtube videos of games - lol ok man. I like how you know this but you only know this from watching tapes/videos of games. What is your point anyway? Luka is leading the nba in scoring and dude is not even in shape lol

When reading basketball reference about 90s Bulls did you read that they were the #1 defense in the nba? Harper, Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman were as good as any defensive foursome the nba has ever seen. Bulls push them to at least 7 if they dont win the series.

….well, yeah. Obviously. I use game tape. And sometimes I rewind and watch it again. I’m not in the arena watching the game in real time. What argument are you even trying to make here?

And listen to that video of David West talking. Anthony Mason weighed 245, and he was a powerful and strong guy. Today’s players on average are larger, faster and are far more athletic. Jordan didn’t even start serious weight-training until he was in his mid 20’s. Power forwards regularly weighed like 210 pounds back then.

And yes, the Bulls were the #1 defence in the NBA back then. That’s because they were the best among their peers. Stop using their performance against their peers as an argument for how they’d fare against the Warriors

[CIN-C-STAR]

The NBA game wasn’t as violent as they claim it was. There were lots of ticky-tack fouls called, and hand-checking was never a serious defensive tactic.

Watch full NBA games from that era. The game tape doesn’t lie.

Hand-checking was absolutely a thing. It killed offenses. The game was a lot more physical in the past, especially in the playoffs. Either you weren't around or you are misremembering? I'm not trying to validate hyperbolic statements. It's just a fact. Some of those 90s playoff series were brutal to watch.

Try handchecking a wing player today and you’re only asking to get blown by. We’re talking about modern athletes here. Not guys at the YMCA

Did handchecking help in certain possessions? Sure. But it’s not the dealbreaker these older heads claim it was. And there were rule changes (like the abolishing of Illegal Defence in 2001) that were far more consequential in aiding the defences

How would hand checking invite blow bys?
You sure you know what hand checking is?

[CIN-C-STAR]

If the players today are so amazing why does the league have to give them every advantage and not enforce basic rules to help them score?
The league sure doesn't seem to think they are that great, or they wouldn't feel the need to handcuff defenders and routinely allow carries, etc.
Just saying. It's clear the league has no confidence in the current talent level. I kind of agree that the skill level is probably better but it's hard to say that based on the league's approach. If they are better you really don't see it outside of long-distance shooting tbh.

[turnaroundJ]

The NBA game wasn’t as violent as they claim it was. There were lots of ticky-tack fouls called, and hand-checking was never a serious defensive tactic.

Watch full NBA games from that era. The game tape doesn’t lie.

they'll never listen and they'll never rewatch tape. keep up the good fight though.

[Harry Garris]

If the players today are so amazing why does the league have to give them every advantage and not enforce basic rules to help them score?
The league sure doesn't seem to think they are that great, or they wouldn't feel the need to handcuff defenders and routinely allow carries, etc.
Just saying. It's clear the league has no confidence in the current talent level. I kind of agree that the skill level is probably better but it's hard to say that based on the league's approach. If they are better you really don't see it outside of long-distance shooting tbh.

This isn't the right way to look at it. The league isn't making rule changes to give players a "helping hand" offensively. The proliferation of shooting and spacing has done that naturally without any rule changes needed.

The reason why the league allows carries is because sick dribble moves get a lot of views on social media. Stiff, mechanical looking dribbling doesn't vibe with the kids. That's what the league cares about.

[MavsDirk41]

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. 1980s NBA players were weaker and less talented than the current NBA players.

Players lighting up the scoreboard does not correlate to the defences today being worse than in the 1980s. It could simply be that players are far more offensively skilled, leading to them going off for 40 points. Back then, you’d struggle to find even 1 player who shot more than 90% from the free throw line. Today we have over a dozen players who consistently shoot over 90% on their free throws. And this is a free throw, where defence is completely irrelevant. These new guys are really really talented

The eye test doesn’t lie.

The 2017 Warriors would have run the 1996 Bulls out of the gym. Multiple three-point threats on the floor at the same time, and they’d make mincemeat of those Bulls. The Bulls didn’t have the offensive firepower to keep up with three 30 ppg scorers on the court at the same time, as well as an elite defence and a decent amount of role players.

1980s player were weaker and less talented than current players and i know this cause i watched youtube videos of games - lol ok man. I like how you know this but you only know this from watching tapes/videos of games. What is your point anyway? Luka is leading the nba in scoring and dude is not even in shape lol

When reading basketball reference about 90s Bulls did you read that they were the #1 defense in the nba? Harper, Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman were as good as any defensive foursome the nba has ever seen. Bulls push them to at least 7 if they dont win the series.

….well, yeah. Obviously. I use game tape. And sometimes I rewind and watch it again. I’m not in the arena watching the game in real time. What argument are you even trying to make here?

And listen to that video of David West talking. Anthony Mason weighed 245, and he was a powerful and strong guy. Today’s players on average are larger, faster and are far more athletic. Jordan didn’t even start serious weight-training until he was in his mid 20’s. Power forwards regularly weighed like 210 pounds back then.

And yes, the Bulls were the #1 defence in the NBA back then. That’s because they were the best among their peers. Stop using their performance against their peers as an argument for how they’d fare against the Warriors

How athletic is the nba’s leading scorer Luka? He admits he is slow. The Mavs starting center is Wood who weighs 215. How much does GS starting center Looney weigh?
220? How strong is Porzingis? There is no point in arguing with you about this anymore. Todays players are awesome and 80s players were slow and unathletic blah blah blah

Go watch some more videos

[The High Cyde]

Agreed, I think it’s pretty obvious. Say that to anyone over the age of say 35-40 and they’ll be offended something fierce. Truth hurts though I guess.

[turnaroundJ]

and also depends which legends you ask. there are a good number of former players who praise today's players and the current game. but most people will always glorify their own eras.

but yes the handchecking myth needs to end.