Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9)

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What's your overall assessment of the list?

5 (amazing)
4
3%
4 (very good)
31
25%
3 (mediocre)
39
32%
2 (bad)
24
20%
1 (horrible)
23
19%
I don't know.
2
2%
 
Total votes: 123

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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#61 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:58 pm



Well there isn't really a reasoning explained here. Just telling them that 8 people voted. This list is an aggregate of 8 unlisted people's opinions and no explanation of criteria.

It's a list. I try to avoid calling a list bad if my reasoning is simply: it doesn't match my opinion. I also don't find lists like this inherently interesting unless I'm really interested in the basketball minds of the people who authored it. I don't know any of HoopsHype's writers well enough to feel strongly either way (though I'm a longtime fan of the site).

There are some things that feel at first glance fairly indefensible if it's about impacting basketball wins. When I see Allen Iverson rated that highly, I assume the criteria has something to do with cultural impact or the magical idea of "greatness". The same types of list usually bump Kobe, Magic, Carmelo(?) and Bird and usually drop Duncan, KG, Curry, Nash, Robinson, Reggie. I tend to think a lot of the guys in the top 20ish can be moved around with all kinds of ranges and you can usually make a good case for them. But I'd say this list cares less about defense or overall impact and cares more about cool players and greatness etc.

Also you can often tell how much historical ball people know by looking closer to the end of this list. It gets more and more random in a way where it's hard to believe they know the players that well. Do these guys don't really know much the difference between Elvin Hayes and Bob McAdoo for example. Or like... ranking Pete Maravich ahead of Dave Cowens or Nate Thurmond just means you think Pistol Pete was cool? (There's no way you can study Pistol Pete's career and make a real argument for this... in my humble opinion).
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#62 » by Ascrilas » Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:14 pm

Giannis at 22 and Jokic at 41 makes no sense at all. I get that it is hard to rate active players who are still in the middle of their prime, but if you have Giannis knocking at the top 20 already, there is zero reason why Jokic shouldn't. These two have a very similar career, how are they 19 places apart?
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#63 » by Blame Rasho » Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:23 pm

I don’t get why people get bent out of shape over lists. You know what? 20 years from now, the list is going to change. Look at lists from 2003, 2013, and today. Losing your crap over something that is constantly evolving isn’t really productive esp if it a very subjective opinion.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#64 » by xdrta+ » Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:41 pm

Leaving Nate Thurmond off is ridiculous. One of the best centers of all time.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#65 » by Memories » Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:56 pm

Hyaena wrote:It's an ok list. The first thing that jumped out to me was Duncan being too low, the same with Dirk, Giannis, and Jokic.



Naw, you guys and majority of RealGM have overrated Tim Duncan FOR WAY TOO LONG.

People that think he’s anywhere near top 5 of all time are high as hell.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#66 » by NZB2323 » Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:34 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:So what's the argument for Jokic and Giannis below:

15. Karl Malone
16. Moses Malone
17. Kevin Garnett
18. Jerry West
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Julius Erving
21. Elgin Baylor

?


Obviously the argument is longevity, except for Elgin Baylor, who holds the record for most points scored in a finals game with 61.

Dr. J:
4x MVP
2x playoffs MVP
3x champion
16x all-star
9x all first team
8th all time in points scored

And Giannis was great in 2021, but he's come up short in the playoffs other years. Jerry West made it to the NBA Finals 9 times. Dr. J made the finals several times in the ABA and NBA. KG didn't have the teammates they had.

If you're throwing out longevity then should Luka Doncic be part of the list?
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#67 » by ReasonablySober » Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:53 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:So what's the argument for Jokic and Giannis below:

15. Karl Malone
16. Moses Malone
17. Kevin Garnett
18. Jerry West
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Julius Erving
21. Elgin Baylor

?


Obviously the argument is longevity, except for Elgin Baylor, who holds the record for most points scored in a finals game with 61.

Dr. J:
4x MVP
2x playoffs MVP
3x champion
16x all-star
9x all first team
8th all time in points scored

And Giannis was great in 2021, but he's come up short in the playoffs other years. Jerry West made it to the NBA Finals 9 times. Dr. J made the finals several times in the ABA and NBA. KG didn't have the teammates they had.

If you're throwing out longevity then should Luka Doncic be part of the list?


I'm not throwing out longevity. But Giannis and Jokic have both longevity and career accomplishments. Jokic has played three more seasons than Luka, Giannis has played twice as many seasons. They've both won rings and multiple MVPs.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#68 » by dygaction » Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:05 pm

Blame Rasho wrote:I don’t get why people get bent out of shape over lists. You know what? 20 years from now, the list is going to change. Look at lists from 2003, 2013, and today. Losing your crap over something that is constantly evolving isn’t really productive esp if it a very subjective opinion.


Aren't the same for university ranking, GDP stats, best actors, singers... in the world? all these are constantly evolving.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#69 » by ropjhk » Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:07 pm

It's an alright list.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#70 » by Ursusamericanus » Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:11 pm

Memories wrote:
Hyaena wrote:It's an ok list. The first thing that jumped out to me was Duncan being too low, the same with Dirk, Giannis, and Jokic.



Naw, you guys and majority of RealGM have overrated Tim Duncan FOR WAY TOO LONG.

People that think he’s anywhere near top 5 of all time are high as hell.


I definitely don't have him top 5 but 10th is too low IMO.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#71 » by Ursusamericanus » Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:12 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
Hyaena wrote:It's an ok list. The first thing that jumped out to me was Duncan being too low, the same with Dirk, Giannis, and Jokic.


Dirk isn’t too 20 or better than Giannis, Robinson, Barkley, or Jokic. Nash higher than Kidd and GP is a no for me. Kobe isn’t top 10.


I've actually got Dirk ahead of Barkley. Agree on Nash. Undecided on Kobe.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#72 » by Bornstellar » Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:16 pm

Memories wrote:
Hyaena wrote:It's an ok list. The first thing that jumped out to me was Duncan being too low, the same with Dirk, Giannis, and Jokic.



Naw, you guys and majority of RealGM have overrated Tim Duncan FOR WAY TOO LONG.

People that think he’s anywhere near top 5 of all time are high as hell.

Naw, casuals have underrated him for way too long. People that think he's nowhere near top 5 all time are truly stoned out of their minds
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#73 » by celtxman » Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:57 pm

Wigginstime wrote:Jokic at 41 was the biggest surprise. If you were starting a franchise today how many people would honestly take the following players above Jokic:

28. Chris Paul
29. John Havlicek
30. Allen Iverson
31. Bob Pettit
32. John Stockton
34. Steve Nash
35. Patrick Ewing
36. Rick Barry
37. Bob Cousy
38. Jason Kidd
39. James Harden
40. Elvin Hayes


Once again we snub some of the greats of All Time. Jokic better than Havlicek? Here's how Havlicek stacks up against Michael Jordan

Havlicek. Jordan
11x All NBA. 11 x All NBA
13 X All Star. 14 x All NBA
8 titles. 6 titles
26k points. 32k points
8k rebounds. 6k rebounds
6k assists. 5k assists
31 triple doubles. 28 triple doubles
8-0 in NBA FINALS. 6-0 in NBA FINALS

NOBODY is claiming Havlicek is better than Jordan. But underrated in this poll and better than Jokic at this point? 100%
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#74 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:01 pm

Ridiculously high:
Magic, Kobe, Durant, Baylor, Isiah, Havlicek, Iverson

Ridiculously low:
Duncan, Hakeem, D-Rob, CP3, Jokic, Embiid (unranked!)

I can’t take this garbage list seriously. I voted a 1.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#75 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:08 pm

celtxman wrote:
Wigginstime wrote:Jokic at 41 was the biggest surprise. If you were starting a franchise today how many people would honestly take the following players above Jokic:

28. Chris Paul
29. John Havlicek
30. Allen Iverson
31. Bob Pettit
32. John Stockton
34. Steve Nash
35. Patrick Ewing
36. Rick Barry
37. Bob Cousy
38. Jason Kidd
39. James Harden
40. Elvin Hayes


Once again we snub some of the greats of All Time. Jokic better than Havlicek? Here's how Havlicek stacks up against Michael Jordan

Havlicek. Jordan
11x All NBA. 11 x All NBA
13 X All Star. 14 x All NBA
8 titles. 6 titles
26k points. 32k points
8k rebounds. 6k rebounds
6k assists. 5k assists
31 triple doubles. 28 triple doubles
8-0 in NBA FINALS. 6-0 in NBA FINALS

NOBODY is claiming Havlicek is better than Jordan. But underrated in this poll and better than Jokic at this point? 100%


Havlicek’s more of a Pippen than a Jordan. If you go to our retro POY project, he ranks 53rd all-time. Jokic ranks 20th. The highest Havlicek ever registered for a single season was 4th in 1972 and you know people would give him the benefit of the doubt for being on all those championship teams if you could make any case he was the straw that stirred the drink. And none of this is even accounting for the much, much weaker era he played in.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#76 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:11 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:


Well there isn't really a reasoning explained here. Just telling them that 8 people voted. This list is an aggregate of 8 unlisted people's opinions and no explanation of criteria.

It's a list. I try to avoid calling a list bad if my reasoning is simply: it doesn't match my opinion. I also don't find lists like this inherently interesting unless I'm really interested in the basketball minds of the people who authored it. I don't know any of HoopsHype's writers well enough to feel strongly either way (though I'm a longtime fan of the site).

There are some things that feel at first glance fairly indefensible if it's about impacting basketball wins. When I see Allen Iverson rated that highly, I assume the criteria has something to do with cultural impact or the magical idea of "greatness". The same types of list usually bump Kobe, Magic, Carmelo(?) and Bird and usually drop Duncan, KG, Curry, Nash, Robinson, Reggie. I tend to think a lot of the guys in the top 20ish can be moved around with all kinds of ranges and you can usually make a good case for them. But I'd say this list cares less about defense or overall impact and cares more about cool players and greatness etc.

Also you can often tell how much historical ball people know by looking closer to the end of this list. It gets more and more random in a way where it's hard to believe they know the players that well. Do these guys don't really know much the difference between Elvin Hayes and Bob McAdoo for example. Or like... ranking Pete Maravich ahead of Dave Cowens or Nate Thurmond just means you think Pistol Pete was cool? (There's no way you can study Pistol Pete's career and make a real argument for this... in my humble opinion).


I think they just don’t know ball, period. Pistol Pete over Cowens and Thurmond isn’t any worse than Isiah over Chris Paul and AI over Stockton.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#77 » by Ben AN » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:33 pm

Acknowledging that it's a list that is an amalgam of different people's criterion, I think it's a decent list. My notes on it would be Jimmy/PG/Dray/Mutombo/Mourning/Embiid massively snubbed, DWade/Kawhi/Russ/Dwight/TMac too low, Isiah/GP too high, Kidd/Worthy/Melo/Pete Maravich way too high & Harden should be above Ewing.

I don't get why a MVP with decent longevity in Embiid would fail to make the list, yet guys with not much better longevity and clearly worse accolades like TMac and Pistol Pete end up making it.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#78 » by lars_rosenberg » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:34 pm

Doranku wrote:KD > Steph is pure blasphemy in my eyes.
Yes, I really don't understand why KD is higher. Just for the FMVPs? Steph was always the leader of that team and he has won two titles without KD, while KD without Steph never managed to accomplish anything.
His only good result was the finals with young Harden and Westbrook and that's it.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#79 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:35 pm

hauntedcomputer wrote:Mikan at 46 when he's a top 10 all timer.

Crapping on Schayes and Pettit, who blow away the likes of Garnett and Nowitzki. In what universe is Isaiah more accomplished than Cousy? Maravich and Carmelo over Sam Jones and Bill Sharman? Dwight Howard over Artis Gilmore?

Typical recency-bias ChatGPT nonsense. These lists have been circulating on the web for so long that we've lost our ability to reason with them because they become de facto "generally accepted."

"Think about how dumb the average person is, and then realize half of them are even dumber than that."- George Carlin


It’s not recency bias to say that it’s more impressive to dominate a worldwide league that recruits the top talent from all around the globe than it was to dominate a niche Midwestern and Northeastern league that accepted very few African Americans.

Dolph Schayes over KG is one of the worst takes I’ve ever heard. All the advanced analytics based on impact would have KG as the second best player of the last 30 years. He’s an all-time defender so he’s always going to be underrated by a stat like PER, but even so he has 4 seasons that beat Schayes’ best in that league adjusted stat completely ignoring that the league KG played in was light years ahead. From a longevity perspective, KG played over 20,000 more career minutes. Comparing them is an insult to KG. It’s like comparing Bill Russell to Rudy Gobert.
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Re: Hoopshype ranks the top 77 NBA players of all-time (spoiler: Kevin Garnett is not #9) 

Post#80 » by Wolveswin » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:54 pm

Blame Rasho wrote:I don’t get why people get bent out of shape over lists. You know what? 20 years from now, the list is going to change. Look at lists from 2003, 2013, and today. Losing your crap over something that is constantly evolving isn’t really productive esp if it a very subjective opinion.

This.

Add in the near impossible ability to compare players (even worse: stats) from one generation to another. The game has changed so much over each generation. Having a list that covers the best all time is really pointless and just an exercise in sensationalism narratives.

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