NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (continued)

[GrandTheftRondo]

Yup

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Because Embiid is a selfish ass****, and, Jokic is the most unselfish and non self absorbed/winning (not stats) player and person of this Millennium.

Shouldn't MVP be judged based on what happens on the court, and not who is more liked and who is selfish?

Unfortunately the MVP race became far more than on court play dictating things last season when Kendrick Perkins decided to turn it into a race thing. Plus the whole argument from him about having this guy win 3 MVPs despite no rings.

Jokic should probably have 3 in a row, but that’s not to ignore the fact that Embiid got real unlucky that year he got injured.

Jokic for me at the moment reminds me of LeBron from 2008-2013 in that he’s the most valuable player in basketball every year and bored voters and a liking for the new shiny player are what prevents them winning every year.

I expect the Nuggets to start shooting up the standings soon and finish top two in the West. I don’t see how Jokic doesn’t win it if that’s the case.

[bisme37]

That's what you don't understand, from your perspective, as a self-appointed "Indian from Indonesia". You have no hand on the pulse of the NBA in America. Never have, never will.

This have to be one of the most uninformed, racially-charged, ignorant remarks I have seen on this board in a while. So much for Bisme’s request for calm. Going along nicely till you started tapping away on your keyboard.

I accidentally pressed and-1.

I was out of the office (so to speak) most of yesterday, so thank you to Dirk and (almost) everyone in the thread for getting it back on track.

ty 4191 has been suspended for some really over-the-top attacks in multiple threads.

[MoneyTalks41890]

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[Wolfgang630]

The current mvp races bring out the worst in people. It’s never been this vitriol prior to Embiid and Jokic.

[iggymcfrack]

Currently, Luka is number 2 in PPG and top 5 in APG. His team in the top 3 in the West when many predicted Dallas to be a play-in team. His shooting percentage is better this year. Heck, he improved his defense. So, 6? LOL.

He's 7th in EPM, 6th in BPM, and has an on/off for the season of +0.3. Jokic, SGA, Embiid, Haliburton, and LeBron have all been better by any objective measure.

Mavs On/Off numbers are something scientists will study 50 years from now. I don't think there is any more bipolar team in the league than the Mavs. Exum was negative some time ago, now he's nr1 on the team with +18.3. Are you really going to tell me that Exum is more impactful overal, a better and more important player than Luka?

If i learned anything is that don't trust Mavs On/Off numbers because a week from now their entire structure could completely change. Another extreme example, Curry hasn't even been that good and he's at +7.7, 4th in the team.

If you go by their On/Off, their best playoff lineup is Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ

If it was just 20 games of meh on/off numbers from Luka, there might be more reason to be skeptical. It’s been like this his whole career though. It’s pretty clear at this point that the lack of defense and the holding the ball more than anyone in the league lead to the box score consistently overrating him. And even by the box score, he’s not top 5.

[SOA]

+/- is only useful for a group of players. It is not intended as an individual stat for a single player. That is why they look at the stat as a whole a la GSW's "Death lineup" or when the Mavs changed up some things in 2011.

Judging an MVP candidate off of it is not the way to go.

[Archx]

He's 7th in EPM, 6th in BPM, and has an on/off for the season of +0.3. Jokic, SGA, Embiid, Haliburton, and LeBron have all been better by any objective measure.

Mavs On/Off numbers are something scientists will study 50 years from now. I don't think there is any more bipolar team in the league than the Mavs. Exum was negative some time ago, now he's nr1 on the team with +18.3. Are you really going to tell me that Exum is more impactful overal, a better and more important player than Luka?

If i learned anything is that don't trust Mavs On/Off numbers because a week from now their entire structure could completely change. Another extreme example, Curry hasn't even been that good and he's at +7.7, 4th in the team.

If you go by their On/Off, their best playoff lineup is Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ

If it was just 20 games of meh on/off numbers from Luka, there might be more reason to be skeptical. It’s been like this his whole career though. It’s pretty clear at this point that the lack of defense and the holding the ball more than anyone in the league lead to the box score consistently overrating him. And even by the box score, he’s not top 5.

You're right, apparently Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ are Mavs top players. At least that's what On/Off tells us. Kyrie and Luka don't matter since they're far behind them.

[dygaction]

Mavs On/Off numbers are something scientists will study 50 years from now. I don't think there is any more bipolar team in the league than the Mavs. Exum was negative some time ago, now he's nr1 on the team with +18.3. Are you really going to tell me that Exum is more impactful overal, a better and more important player than Luka?

If i learned anything is that don't trust Mavs On/Off numbers because a week from now their entire structure could completely change. Another extreme example, Curry hasn't even been that good and he's at +7.7, 4th in the team.

If you go by their On/Off, their best playoff lineup is Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ

If it was just 20 games of meh on/off numbers from Luka, there might be more reason to be skeptical. It’s been like this his whole career though. It’s pretty clear at this point that the lack of defense and the holding the ball more than anyone in the league lead to the box score consistently overrating him. And even by the box score, he’s not top 5.

You're right, apparently Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ are Mavs top players. At least that's what On/Off tells us. Kyrie and Luka don't matter since they're far behind them.

It is on Kidd for not being a mathematical genius or able to maximize this lineup's playing time and use Luka and Kyrie heavy minutes.

[eyeatoma]

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[Wolfgang630]

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Maybe if we all post something positive for a candidate maybe we’re not rooting for it’ll be better lol. Like this one tweet

[azcatz11]

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Wow that poster is unhinged attacking you like that! Sorry some people are nuts. What a complete lunatic

[Big J]

Because Embiid is a selfish ass****, and, Jokic is the most unselfish and non self absorbed/winning (not stats) player and person of this Millennium.

Shouldn't MVP be judged based on what happens on the court, and not who is more liked and who is selfish?

Unfortunately the MVP race became far more than on court play dictating things last season when Kendrick Perkins decided to turn it into a race thing. Plus the whole argument from him about having this guy win 3 MVPs despite no rings.

Jokic should probably have 3 in a row, but that’s not to ignore the fact that Embiid got real unlucky that year he got injured.

Jokic for me at the moment reminds me of LeBron from 2008-2013 in that he’s the most valuable player in basketball every year and bored voters and a liking for the new shiny player are what prevents them winning every year.

I expect the Nuggets to start shooting up the standings soon and finish top two in the West. I don’t see how Jokic doesn’t win it if that’s the case.

Does Kendrick Perkins really have that much sway? He's Kendrick **** Perkins. Nobody cares what he says.

[Hobo4President]

Right now it's probs Embiid and SGA in 1 & 2 with Jokic at 3rd

[iggymcfrack]

Mavs On/Off numbers are something scientists will study 50 years from now. I don't think there is any more bipolar team in the league than the Mavs. Exum was negative some time ago, now he's nr1 on the team with +18.3. Are you really going to tell me that Exum is more impactful overal, a better and more important player than Luka?

If i learned anything is that don't trust Mavs On/Off numbers because a week from now their entire structure could completely change. Another extreme example, Curry hasn't even been that good and he's at +7.7, 4th in the team.

If you go by their On/Off, their best playoff lineup is Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ

If it was just 20 games of meh on/off numbers from Luka, there might be more reason to be skeptical. It’s been like this his whole career though. It’s pretty clear at this point that the lack of defense and the holding the ball more than anyone in the league lead to the box score consistently overrating him. And even by the box score, he’s not top 5.

You're right, apparently Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ are Mavs top players. At least that's what On/Off tells us. Kyrie and Luka don't matter since they're far behind them.

I brought up on/off as one piece of the puzzle. I never said to sort by it. It's like when someone mentioned Luka was top 5 in assists per game, I never said "oh yeah! Well by assists per game, Trae Young and Fred Van Vleet are top 5 in the league, LOL!!! Assists are stupid!!!"

[Doctor MJ]

Mavs On/Off numbers are something scientists will study 50 years from now. I don't think there is any more bipolar team in the league than the Mavs. Exum was negative some time ago, now he's nr1 on the team with +18.3. Are you really going to tell me that Exum is more impactful overal, a better and more important player than Luka?

If i learned anything is that don't trust Mavs On/Off numbers because a week from now their entire structure could completely change. Another extreme example, Curry hasn't even been that good and he's at +7.7, 4th in the team.

If you go by their On/Off, their best playoff lineup is Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ

If it was just 20 games of meh on/off numbers from Luka, there might be more reason to be skeptical. It’s been like this his whole career though. It’s pretty clear at this point that the lack of defense and the holding the ball more than anyone in the league lead to the box score consistently overrating him. And even by the box score, he’s not top 5.

You're right, apparently Curry, Lawson, Lively, Exum, DJJ are Mavs top players. At least that's what On/Off tells us. Kyrie and Luka don't matter since they're far behind them.

There's something real here that you really need to acknowledge rather than trying to score points.

Forget about how we rate individuals, what's causing the surprising team results?

We've become accustomed in basketball to having our top players yield outlier On/Off & +/- regression based numbers. So when a player doesn't give us those signals after plenty of sample, we need to ask why not.

[Doctor MJ]

Shouldn't MVP be judged based on what happens on the court, and not who is more liked and who is selfish?

Unfortunately the MVP race became far more than on court play dictating things last season when Kendrick Perkins decided to turn it into a race thing. Plus the whole argument from him about having this guy win 3 MVPs despite no rings.

Jokic should probably have 3 in a row, but that’s not to ignore the fact that Embiid got real unlucky that year he got injured.

Jokic for me at the moment reminds me of LeBron from 2008-2013 in that he’s the most valuable player in basketball every year and bored voters and a liking for the new shiny player are what prevents them winning every year.

I expect the Nuggets to start shooting up the standings soon and finish top two in the West. I don’t see how Jokic doesn’t win it if that’s the case.

Does Kendrick Perkins really have that much sway? He's Kendrick **** Perkins. Nobody cares what he says.

Sway is an interesting thing.

Just because no one thinks Perkins is capable of having an informed opinion of who is actually the most valuable player, doesn't mean he couldn't make white voters feel worried about being called racist. Perkins wasn't the only one who could have done this, and he couldn't do it by himself, but he is the talking head who got the ball rolling.

ftr, I'd say this is something of a stinging bee situation. Voters who switched away from Jokic went out record feeling like cowards after they watched Jokic lead his team to a title. Those voters then will likely be steadfast in the future, and if Perkins (or someone like him) says something similar in the future, it will mostly just polarize voters away from what he's arguing for.

[Sedale Threatt]

The current mvp races bring out the worst in people. It’s never been this vitriol prior to Embiid and Jokic.

I honesty don't understand the energy grown adults put into this. Like I get it from a historical perspective or the purpose of casual sports debate. But I stopped really, really caring about whether or not my favorite player won the MVP back in high school. And that was in the back end of Magic's career when it was basically him or Jordan. Honestly, who cares.

[Big J]

Unfortunately the MVP race became far more than on court play dictating things last season when Kendrick Perkins decided to turn it into a race thing. Plus the whole argument from him about having this guy win 3 MVPs despite no rings.

Jokic should probably have 3 in a row, but that’s not to ignore the fact that Embiid got real unlucky that year he got injured.

Jokic for me at the moment reminds me of LeBron from 2008-2013 in that he’s the most valuable player in basketball every year and bored voters and a liking for the new shiny player are what prevents them winning every year.

I expect the Nuggets to start shooting up the standings soon and finish top two in the West. I don’t see how Jokic doesn’t win it if that’s the case.

Does Kendrick Perkins really have that much sway? He's Kendrick **** Perkins. Nobody cares what he says.

Sway is an interesting thing.

Just because no one thinks Perkins is capable of having an informed opinion of who is actually the most valuable player, doesn't mean he couldn't make white voters feel worried about being called racist. Perkins wasn't the only one who could have done this, and he couldn't do it by himself, but he is the talking head who got the ball rolling.

ftr, I'd say this is something of a stinging bee situation. Voters who switched away from Jokic went out record feeling like cowards after they watched Jokic lead his team to a title. Those voters then will likely be steadfast in the future, and if Perkins (or someone like him) says something similar in the future, it will mostly just polarize voters away from what he's arguing for.

Eh, it was probably more the case of voter fatigue and the fact that Jokic hadn't won a ring despite the 2 mvps. Maybe some voters felt betrayed by Jokic not winning one at that point after he'd been voted MVP twice.

[Sedale Threatt]

Wow that poster is unhinged attacking you like that! Sorry some people are nuts. What a complete lunatic

He did something similar to me, minus the racism/jingoism, about 5 or 6 months ago when I made some offhand comment that, even as a massive LeBron fan, I'd probably never put anybody over Jordan. Who I didn't even particularly like when he was playing. Even DM'd me when I wouldn't respond to him, which I don't think anybody had ever done to me before. "This is the problem with stupid kids who only know basketball from YouTube." Dude, I'm in my 40s and have been watching the NBA obsessively since 1987.

Like we've all probably lost our tempers here -- I know I have more times than I'd want to admit -- but when you're constantly just screaming at people, you have a problem.

[ChartFiction]

SGA has fair arguments that he is leading the race. Just as much as Embiid and Jokic.