Is Monty Williams the worst contract in the league?

[RSP83]

No. That's how much Pistons management is willing to pay for his service. It's not like it's going into the salary cap.

I haven't watched much Pistons basketball this year, other than their last and second only win vs. my Bulls. I don't have any specific negative note about the Pistons. I thought Pistons got good balance of young and veteran talent. Cade is talented. At that point I wished Bulls have Ausar Thompson instead of Patrick Williams. And Jalen Duren is already one of my favorite young big.

About Monty's coaching, I can only share Bulls fans experience with Billy Donovan. I thought Monty and Billy is similar, player's coach, had success coaching veteran teams. Bulls fans want Billy fired from as early as All-Star break last year. Wanted him fired again when Bulls was 5-14 earlier this season. Biggest concern is Billy's lack of creativity in making roster adjustments and not being able to get the team to play the way he wants. Everybody thought he has lost the locker room. Bulls kept playing 2 man iso ball with Demar and Zach. It takes a Zach Lavine trade request and nursing injury for the team to have a turnaround (8-3 since). And apparently Billy never lost his voice in the locker room. I blame the Front Office most for Bulls situation. The Lavine situation could've been managed earlier if the Front Office did a better job. So the FO is part of the problem not only the coach.

Bulls fans is tired of the FO's "Continuity" mantra to cover up for the FO's incompetence. But for the Pistons this is basically Year 1, so I think patience is still warranted. But Pistons FO have to do their part, not just rely on the coaching and players to figure it out.

[7r5ur]

I don't make excuses for Cade. He's been bad on defense, Ivey is on a different level of bad. I alread showed you the numbers you refuse to see it, so you do you.

Ivey is on the bottom 2% as a defender. Cade is on the bottom 22%.

It's terrible to be worse than 3/4 of the league as a defender, but Ivey is as close as it get to be the worst defender in the league. Different level of bad. That's no excuse for Cade, he got to be better than that. Ivey shouldn't be in the NBA tho.

https://craftednba.com/players/cade-cunningham

https://craftednba.com/players/jaden-ivey

https://craftednba.com/players/bojan-bogdanovic

Bojan is actually the worst defender in the league FWIW.

Try looking up from the spreadsheet and watching the game next time. Ivey has gotten better on defense while Cade has gotten a lot worse even though he gets hidden on D every night. Yet you're on here like

((standardizedDDARKO / 2) + (standardizedDLEBRON x 2) + (standardizedDRaptor x 2) + (standardizedDBPM / 2) + (standardizedDPredator / 2) + (standardizedDLA3RAPM / 2) + 0) / 7.= Ivey Bad

...As if advanced stats like these (and defense in general) aren't highly influenced by team defense, matchups, lineups, etc. That same site says we've got 2 top-11 rim protectors playing next to Cade on this team that can't guard a traffic cone btw.

The fact that Monty ran out a lineup of 4 defenders with Cade for the majority of the season and hid him against the worst opposing player yet he's bottom 17% is pretty rough, not gonna lie. The fact that it's dropped 5% since you last looked kinda proves my point. Either Cade has gotten way worse as an individual defender since you last looked, or the fact that the team is getting crushed is skewing the stats.

As someone with no dog in this fight, Ivy is definitely worse defensively than Cade is right now. I’m surprised there’s even an argument about it.

It just isn't true if you actually watch these games (and I can't imagine why you would). Blame the offensive load if you want, but even Cade made a point to say after the game that he can't keep anyone in front of him right now. He and Bojan are the worst 2 "blow-by guys" in the rotation today. Ivey certainly isn't GOOD, and he fouls too much and gets lost when trying to matchup in transition (like 99% of the team), but he easily puts up more resistance than those guys these days.

We aren't talking career. Ivey was truly god awful as a defender last year and Cade as a rookie was at least a neutral defender, but they have gone in totally opposite directions. Even Monty can't possibly think Ivey is worse at this point given that he consistently gives Ivey the tougher matchup when they're on the floor. At least he gives some tiny amount of effort to stay in front of his man and challenge shots, which Cade and Bojan can't bring themselves to do.

[Iwasawitness]

Try looking up from the spreadsheet and watching the game next time. Ivey has gotten better on defense while Cade has gotten a lot worse even though he gets hidden on D every night. Yet you're on here like ...As if advanced stats like these (and defense in general) aren't highly influenced by team defense, matchups, lineups, etc. That same site says we've got 2 top-11 rim protectors playing next to Cade on this team that can't guard a traffic cone btw.

The fact that Monty ran out a lineup of 4 defenders with Cade for the majority of the season and hid him against the worst opposing player yet he's bottom 17% is pretty rough, not gonna lie. The fact that it's dropped 5% since you last looked kinda proves my point. Either Cade has gotten way worse as an individual defender since you last looked, or the fact that the team is getting crushed is skewing the stats.

As someone with no dog in this fight, Ivy is definitely worse defensively than Cade is right now. I’m surprised there’s even an argument about it.

It just isn't true if you actually watch these games (and I can't imagine why you would). Blame the offensive load if you want, but even Cade made a point to say after the game that he can't keep anyone in front of him right now. He and Bojan are the worst 2 "blow-by guys" in the rotation today. Ivey certainly isn't GOOD, and he fouls too much, but he easily puts up more resistance than those guys these days.

We aren't talking career. Ivey was truly god awful as a defender last year and Cade as a rookie was at least a neutral defender, but they have gone in totally opposite directions. Even Monty can't possibly think Ivey is worse at this point given that he consistently gives Ivey the tougher matchup when they're on the floor.

I’ve watched five so far this season, two of which were against the cavaliers. Ivy has easily been worse defensively in those games. Maybe they’re just outliers and Cades been worse in the others, but based on what I’ve seen? Nah.

[7r5ur]

As someone with no dog in this fight, Ivy is definitely worse defensively than Cade is right now. I’m surprised there’s even an argument about it.

It just isn't true if you actually watch these games (and I can't imagine why you would). Blame the offensive load if you want, but even Cade made a point to say after the game that he can't keep anyone in front of him right now. He and Bojan are the worst 2 "blow-by guys" in the rotation today. Ivey certainly isn't GOOD, and he fouls too much, but he easily puts up more resistance than those guys these days.

We aren't talking career. Ivey was truly god awful as a defender last year and Cade as a rookie was at least a neutral defender, but they have gone in totally opposite directions. Even Monty can't possibly think Ivey is worse at this point given that he consistently gives Ivey the tougher matchup when they're on the floor.

I’ve watched five so far this season, two of which were against the cavaliers. Ivy has easily been worse defensively in those games. Maybe they’re just outliers and Cades been worse in the others, but based on what I’ve seen? Nah.

Cade's is more that as this losing streak has gone on, his effort on defense has become the worst on the team by far, and that's while being hidden every night on the worst opposing perimeter player. With Bojan back the last handful of games that's just becoming harder to do. Today, Cade i's the worst on the team at fighting through screens, he's the slowest to close out on shooters, and these days it's a rarity that he keeps anyone in front of him one-on-one.

He regularly lets guys just blow right past him while gambling for a swipe at the ball while they cruise to the rim, and it really looks like he's just given up. It's bizarre that people criticize him for a lot of things Cade can't control (like being surrounded by terrible offensive players), yet give him a pass for playing with zero effort on D, when he's shown in the past that he can be solid on that end.

[firedavidkahn]

lol no.

Even with any other coach this team would be terrible.

The question is what is he doing that any of the hundreds of assistant coaches and college coaches couldn’t do without having to make them one of the highest paid coaches in sports?

I think that is an exceedingly hard question to accurately answer. The players themselves on Detroit are simply terrible. There is no coach in the league who would do noticeably better. Detroit would still be one of the worst teams in the league no matter who is coach.

So I guess from that angle, yes anyone could do what Monty is doing.

Monty obviously shares blame but the players themselves are the main problem here.

[ocelot17]

They need to fire Stephen Silas.

[7r5ur]

lol no.

Even with any other coach this team would be terrible.

The question is what is he doing that any of the hundreds of assistant coaches and college coaches couldn’t do without having to make them one of the highest paid coaches in sports?

I think that is an exceedingly hard question to accurately answer. The players themselves on Detroit are simply terrible. There is no coach in the league who would do noticeably better. Detroit would still be one of the worst teams in the league no matter who is coach.

So I guess from that angle, yes anyone could do what Monty is doing.

Monty obviously shares blame but the players themselves are the main problem here.

The Pistons were always going to be a bottom 5 team when you looked at what other teams did in the offseason vs. them. Dwane Casey wouldn't have this team on a 25 game losing streak. The Pistons were actively trying to lose every game down the stretch last year, and they still stumbled onto wins every now and then.

They won games with a starting lineup of Killian Hayes, Rodney McGruder, Eugene Omouruyi, Isaiah Livers, and James Wiseman, with Buddy Boeheim, Cory Joseph, James Rhoden, and RJ Hampton off the bench. There is no planet where this lineup is better than what Monty has available to him.

Basically every single player on the roster has gotten worse under Monty. The front office certainly deserves blame, but giving Monty a pass here when he's the 2nd highest paid coach in the league at the helm of the most underachieving team in the league ain't it.

[vege]

I don't make excuses for Cade. He's been bad on defense, Ivey is on a different level of bad. I alread showed you the numbers you refuse to see it, so you do you.

Ivey is on the bottom 2% as a defender. Cade is on the bottom 22%.

It's terrible to be worse than 3/4 of the league as a defender, but Ivey is as close as it get to be the worst defender in the league. Different level of bad. That's no excuse for Cade, he got to be better than that. Ivey shouldn't be in the NBA tho.

https://craftednba.com/players/cade-cunningham

https://craftednba.com/players/jaden-ivey

https://craftednba.com/players/bojan-bogdanovic

Bojan is actually the worst defender in the league FWIW.

Try looking up from the spreadsheet and watching the game next time. Ivey has gotten better on defense while Cade has gotten a lot worse even though he gets hidden on D every night. Yet you're on here like

((standardizedDDARKO / 2) + (standardizedDLEBRON x 2) + (standardizedDRaptor x 2) + (standardizedDBPM / 2) + (standardizedDPredator / 2) + (standardizedDLA3RAPM / 2) + 0) / 7.= Ivey Bad

...As if advanced stats like these (and defense in general) aren't highly influenced by team defense, matchups, lineups, etc. That same site says we've got 2 top-11 rim protectors playing next to Cade on this team that can't guard a traffic cone btw.

The fact that Monty ran out a lineup of 4 defenders with Cade for the majority of the season and hid him against the worst opposing player yet he's bottom 17% is pretty rough, not gonna lie. The fact that it's dropped 5% since you last looked kinda proves my point. Either Cade has gotten way worse as an individual defender since you last looked, or the fact that the team is getting crushed is skewing the stats.

As someone with no dog in this fight, Ivy is definitely worse defensively than Cade is right now. I’m surprised there’s even an argument about it.

There is no argument about it. It's just one excellent poster who got blind because of his love for what Ivey could become. It's a moot point, he just refuses to see the reality.

[7r5ur]

Try looking up from the spreadsheet and watching the game next time. Ivey has gotten better on defense while Cade has gotten a lot worse even though he gets hidden on D every night. Yet you're on here like ...As if advanced stats like these (and defense in general) aren't highly influenced by team defense, matchups, lineups, etc. That same site says we've got 2 top-11 rim protectors playing next to Cade on this team that can't guard a traffic cone btw.

The fact that Monty ran out a lineup of 4 defenders with Cade for the majority of the season and hid him against the worst opposing player yet he's bottom 17% is pretty rough, not gonna lie. The fact that it's dropped 5% since you last looked kinda proves my point. Either Cade has gotten way worse as an individual defender since you last looked, or the fact that the team is getting crushed is skewing the stats.

As someone with no dog in this fight, Ivy is definitely worse defensively than Cade is right now. I’m surprised there’s even an argument about it.

There is no argument about it. It's just one excellent poster who got blind because of his love for what Ivey could become. It's a moot point, he just refuses to see the reality.

Nah, I just don't let cherry picked stats, previous reputations of players, or personal grievance cloud what I actually see when I torture myself by watching these games lol

Nowhere on here have I argued that Ivey is a good defender or even mediocre, if you think that is the point of anything here, you've missed it completely. This is a discussion about Cade. Ivey just gets brought in because he's the designated punching bag for his defense.

[Zeno]

Just money. Unless they put in a cap for coaches and front office in which case, maybe. Imagine they put a cap in and you had to hire a g-league coach and gm because of all the deadcap from cutting Monty.

[vege]

As someone with no dog in this fight, Ivy is definitely worse defensively than Cade is right now. I’m surprised there’s even an argument about it.

There is no argument about it. It's just one excellent poster who got blind because of his love for what Ivey could become. It's a moot point, he just refuses to see the reality.

Nah, I just don't let cherry picked stats, previous reputations of players, or personal grievance cloud what I actually see when I torture myself by watching these games lol

Nowhere on here have I argued that Ivey is a good defender or even mediocre, if you think that is the point of anything here, you've missed it completely. This is a discussion about Cade. Ivey just gets brought in because he's the designated punching bag for his defense.

I have no wish or energy to continue discussing the same thing with you over and over again.

I showed you the best available advanced stats to show you how bad Ivey is.

I have showed you at least half dozen mistake breakdown videos, that show Ivey watching the ball and missing rotations and getting beaten backdoor.

I was talking about how bad Ivey's defense was even before those advanced stats were available to us, last season.

Ivey himself said he is a bad defender, he lied saying he focused on defense during the offseason, he clearly only worked to improve his finishing around the rim.

You have an entire professional coaching staff saying Ivey is umplayable bad on defense. He is in the bottom 2 percentile of the league as a defender.

The defensive matchups are decided according to the players physical abilities (you saw Monty explaining that). Ivey is defending quicker guards, Cade is defending bigger and stronger guys. No one is being hidden, we switch everything most of the time.

Cade has quit, that's unnaceptable. Ivey never tried because no coach ever held him accountable, including Casey.

When Ivey was demoted to the bench, he acted like a diva, and went to the media to complain, and the coaching staff (who's doing a **** job) lost the lockerrom during the defeat against Portland.

Yet you refuses see it. So I will say it again, you do you.

[7r5ur]

There is no argument about it. It's just one excellent poster who got blind because of his love for what Ivey could become. It's a moot point, he just refuses to see the reality.

Nah, I just don't let cherry picked stats, previous reputations of players, or personal grievance cloud what I actually see when I torture myself by watching these games lol

Nowhere on here have I argued that Ivey is a good defender or even mediocre, if you think that is the point of anything here, you've missed it completely. This is a discussion about Cade. Ivey just gets brought in because he's the designated punching bag for his defense.

I have no wish or energy to continue discussing the same thing with you over and over again.

I showed you the best available advanced stats to show you how bad Ivey is.

I have showed you at least half dozen mistake breakdown videos, that show Ivey watching the ball and missing rotations and getting beaten backdoor.

I was talking about how bad Ivey's defense was even before those advanced stats were available to us, last season.

Ivey himself said he is a bad defender, he lied saying he focused on defense during the offseason, he clearly only worked to improve his finishing around the rim.

You have an entire professional coaching staff saying Ivey is umplayable bad on defense. He is in the bottom 2 percentile of the league as a defender.

The defensive matchups are decided according to the players physical abilities (you saw Monty explaining that). Ivey is defending quicker guards, Cade is defending bigger and stronger guys. No one is being hidden, we switch everything most of the time.

Cade has quit, that's unnaceptable. Ivey never tried because no coach ever held him accountable, including Casey.

When Ivey was demoted to the bench, he acted like a diva, and went to the media to complain, and the coaching staff (who's doing a **** job) lost the lockerrom during the defeat against Portland.

Yet you refuses see it. So I will say it again, you do you.

Cade quit and gives the worst effort on the team. The number of times he was caught just standing around flat footed letting dudes walk into the paint last night was truly depressing. You've got ONE good chance to not be the worst team in history an THAT is the effort. Ivey gives a lot of effort he just has a low defensive IQ.

As for the Ivey diva talk, you're kinda tipping your hand here. This was Ivey's big "diva" quote after getting put on the bench, even though the whole world outside of you and Monty saw it as inexplicable to start Killian over him...

"Once I saw what was going on, coming off the bench was no problem for me. I love every single one of these dudes in here. I'd ride for them any day. Coming off the bench isn't a confidence thing or a downer for me. I'm still confident in my game and play the same way."

What a diva!

Certainly the diva here isn't the coach that has a history of public spats with his players (Ayton, Jae Crowder, Eric Gordon, etc).

[vege]

Nah, I just don't let cherry picked stats, previous reputations of players, or personal grievance cloud what I actually see when I torture myself by watching these games lol

Nowhere on here have I argued that Ivey is a good defender or even mediocre, if you think that is the point of anything here, you've missed it completely. This is a discussion about Cade. Ivey just gets brought in because he's the designated punching bag for his defense.

I have no wish or energy to continue discussing the same thing with you over and over again.

I showed you the best available advanced stats to show you how bad Ivey is.

I have showed you at least half dozen mistake breakdown videos, that show Ivey watching the ball and missing rotations and getting beaten backdoor.

I was talking about how bad Ivey's defense was even before those advanced stats were available to us, last season.

Ivey himself said he is a bad defender, he lied saying he focused on defense during the offseason, he clearly only worked to improve his finishing around the rim.

You have an entire professional coaching staff saying Ivey is umplayable bad on defense. He is in the bottom 2 percentile of the league as a defender.

The defensive matchups are decided according to the players physical abilities (you saw Monty explaining that). Ivey is defending quicker guards, Cade is defending bigger and stronger guys. No one is being hidden, we switch everything most of the time.

Cade has quit, that's unnaceptable. Ivey never tried because no coach ever held him accountable, including Casey.

When Ivey was demoted to the bench, he acted like a diva, and went to the media to complain, and the coaching staff (who's doing a **** job) lost the lockerrom during the defeat against Portland.

Yet you refuses see it. So I will say it again, you do you.

Cade quit and gives the worst effort on the team. The number of times he was caught just standing around flat footed letting dudes walk into the paint last night was truly depressing. You've got ONE good chance to not be the worst team in history an THAT is the effort. Ivey gives a lot of effort he just has a low defensive IQ.

As for the Ivey diva talk, you're kinda tipping your hand here. This was Ivey's big "diva" quote after getting put on the bench, even though the whole world outside of you and Monty saw it as inexplicable to start Killian over him...

"Once I saw what was going on, coming off the bench was no problem for me. I love every single one of these dudes in here. I'd ride for them any day. Coming off the bench isn't a confidence thing or a downer for me. I'm still confident in my game and play the same way."

What a diva!

Certainly the diva here isn't the coach that has a history of public spats with his players (Ayton, Jae Crowder, Eric Gordon, etc).

He says one thing and he does another. And there are quotes of him complaining being moved to the bench, and then his body language.

Ivey said he focused on defense during the offseason, and you believe it. Come on.

Ivey's effort on defense is also laughable. Go watch the defensive mistakes breakdown. Cade quit, there's no denying on that, but so did Stew, Bagley and Ivey. They all quit.