Bigger achievement...MJ 6 titles or Maradona winning 2 titles with Napoli?

[elchengue20]

I'm a big soccer fan and i'm gonna say MJ by far.

What he's done winning wise hasn't be done in the NBA modern era. Also without MJ Chicago has always been one of the worst franchises in the NBA, it's not like he did it with the Lakers/Celtics.

In soccer you can see somewhat underdog teams winning a league or two. And that Napoli squad had other quality players too. It's not true Maradona just carried a bunch of scrubs. It's still an amazing achievement don't get me wrong.

[bkkrh]

Shouldnt we have on account against Maradona. Not being able to win la liga with Barcelona which actuslky won It The year he left?

Besides the fact that Maradona was only 22 and this was his first team in Europe, Barcelona hadn't won the title for more than 10 years when he joined. They won the league cup and super cup in his first season there.

In his second season a guy with the nickname "the Butcher of Bilbao" injured him with a brutal tackle that broke his foot in a way that it wasn't clear if he could ever play again. He missed 3 months and returned. After he returned they also played the cup final against Bilbao. He was racistly insulted all game long by Bilbao fans, received another brutal tackle from the same player and was generally targeted all game. Bilbao won the game, still on the pitch one of the Bilbao players said the same thing that the fans were chanting to his face and he snapped. He headbutted that player and an all out brawl between the teams started. During that brawl, Maradona knocked another player old cold with a knee to the head. Fans began throwing objects on the pitch, more than 60 people were injured in total. This all happened in front of the Spanish king, who was in the stadium. Afterwards Barcelona sold him, since there was no way that he could continue to play in Spain.

So not winning a title when he could only play about 50% of league games and was only there for 2 seasons is not really a big surprise.

[Effigy]

What sport did Maradona play?

I think she was a pop singer in the 80's.

[Shaka_Zulu]

Apparently this thread needs this clip, too many not aware of this iconic pure art demigod in football.

https://youtu.be/PNsRIn_eg4E?si=TDGnDzIjrbBa-LO1

[ArksNetsSince99]

Bro if Maradona is in your top 5 who’s the 4 guys ahead of him for you ? I’m just curious

I gotta say Maradona is my clear no 1 , maybe because I was a kid watching him play and there was no one even close to him , later after the games when we played soccer as a little boys we all wanted to be Maradonas or Cannigias

I said "at least", I have to think carefully before replying, lol.

I'm not that good as a soccer expert/historian to say, though I think there were quite a handful of players who had great peaks... just out of my head right now, in no order:

Pelé (1962/1963 his absolute best I believe)
Garrincha (2nd greatest carry job in a World Cup ever IMO, in 1962; friendly reminder that Pelé was hurt and played 1 match and a half)
Messi (many peaks to choose from)
Cristiano Ronaldo (ditto)
Ronaldo (Fenômeno) (1999/2000 I think?)
Ronaldinho Gaúcho (2005/2006)
Platini (1984/1986 IIRC)
Zico
Didi
Ibrahimovic
Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Falcão (brazilian midfielder, played for Roma in the 80s)
Di Stéfano
Van Basten
Zidane

* Friendly reminder that yellow and red cards were originally introduced in the 1970 World Cup... imagine playing in a match without cards, you could do whatever you wanted and would have stayed in the field.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying overall career quality, not accomplishments, just sheer peak (= 2 or so year stretch, IMO).

Then you have DOZENS of guys who didn't have as great an overall career as those mentioned above, but had a very strong peak nonetheless... someone like Shevchenko for example. Countless players fit this criteria.

Soccer is very hard to rank players in all-time list, specially nowadays, because some teams are ABSURDLY better than others... some teams nowadays are better than most of the best NATIONAL teams! It was not like that in the 90s, for God's sake.

Solid list bro

Pelé ( he was way before my time so other than watching some bad quality highlights on YouTube I didn’t watched any of his full time games ) but definitely a top 5

Garrincha was a favorite of my stepfather, also way before my time , I remember he was saying Garrincha had one leg shorter by a 2 cm that’s why he could hit the ball better than any other player in his time ( not sure if true )

Messi and Cristiano , I agree I can see them both in top 5 , both have long carriers with plenty accolades and trophies

So after deep thought my top 5 would be based on your list and overall

1-Maradona
2-Messi
3-Pelé - like I said way before my time but he gotta be there
4- Cristiano
5- Ronaldinho - like you said short but best peak of the top 5 , a magician with the ball

Honorable mention I enjoyed watching a lot , original Ronaldo , IbraCadabra , Van Basten

And my neighbor who lived next house Grzegorz Lato - 1974 World Cup scoring champion with 7 goals , either though I never watch him live , but I had privilege to have some beer with his sometimes in our local restaurant way after he finished his career

[Calvin Klein]

So after deep thought my top 5 would be based on your list and overall

1-Maradona
2-Messi
3-Pelé - like I said way before my time but he gotta be there
4- Cristiano
5- Ronaldinho - like you said short but best peak of the top 5 , a magician with the ball

Honorable mention I enjoyed watching a lot , original Ronaldo , IbraCadabra , Van Basten

I approve of this top 5.

[elchengue20]

Having Ibra on the GOAT discussion is a joke.

He's not even the best number 9 of his generation, Suarez is clearly better and you could argue Lewandowski too.

[Dr Aki]

Leicester City

That was probably the biggest underdog story of our times, but lot of things aligned, season had no dominant teams, everyone was dropping points, Lester won it only 81 points, which is incredibly low for a best team, in most seasons, it wouldn't be enought for top 2 or maybe even top 3 finish, I mean they won it, I am not saying they didn't, but stars aligned for them in 2016, it was just season where every top team sucked, but someone had to finish with most points.

Best part of that season was that Tottenham still **** it up

[Tracymcgoaty]

Having Ibra on the GOAT discussion is a joke.

He's not even the best number 9 of his generation, Suarez is clearly better and you could argue Lewandowski too.

I agree wtih that. But Ibra was phenomenal. At that size to possess that level of skill is unheard of imo. 6'4 being fast incredibly skilled is as rare as it comes.

But i comfortably have a bunch of forwards ahead of him.

[jezzerinho]

To me, MJ's was the bigger achievement. I say that as someone who never personally liked Jordan.

Maradonas 2 titles were incredible, all the more so because he got the shït kicked out of him up and down the park even more than he had in Spain. It was phenomenal what he accomplished.

He was enormously gifted, extremely charismatic, ebullient and tough as nails. That was a heady combination that has elevated his stature beyond what he really achieved compared to peers like Messi in football and Jordan in basketball.

He's more than a romantic hero, he's properly in the GOAT shortlist conversation. But his career was too short and too hampered by his extracurriculars to put him in the top echelon.

[damanick10]

MJ only because Soccer is a lame ass sport

[xchange55]

Winning domestic titles in European soccer is not impressive at all. For those of you who don't follow the sport, the bigger clubs have more money available to spend and buy the rights to the best players (either from other big clubs or lower tier clubs). That's what allows a team such as Real Madrid to remain competitive for the past 25+ years running.

In the case of Napoli, they weren't a historical powerhouse, but they said the record for transfer fee on Maradona at the time and had a very strong squad. Perhaps in modern times you can compare it to PSG - not a historical powerhouse, but the owners bough Mbappe, Messi and Neymar. All 3 are now gone, but the team would domestic titles with the trio.

TLDR - In Euro soccer, you can buy domestic titles. The big prize is UEFA Champions League - it's where the best of the best teams from all Euro leagues compete.

[schnakenpopanz]

Maradonna was maybe the most gifted football player of all time.
Watch the documentary about his napoli time and th demons he had to battle with on and off the court and you will understand that in these circumstances the two titles the 86/90 world cup run might be one of the greatest achievements in any sport.

Watch on YouTube

in our times there will not be anything like this because today he would be filtered out by sports academies as a liability
today social media would not allow this life style to happen
there is a reason why messi/ronaldo might go down as the footballs greatest players 1a/1b but there will be no one like Maradonna in terms of tragedy, iconic and genius.

[schnakenpopanz]

Winning domestic titles in European soccer is not impressive at all. For those of you who don't follow the sport, the bigger clubs have more money available to spend and buy the rights to the best players (either from other big clubs or lower tier clubs). That's what allows a team such as Real Madrid to remain competitive for the past 25+ years running.

In the case of Napoli, they weren't a historical powerhouse, but they said the record for transfer fee on Maradona at the time and had a very strong squad. Perhaps in modern times you can compare it to PSG - not a historical powerhouse, but the owners bough Mbappe, Messi and Neymar. All 3 are now gone, but the team would domestic titles with the trio.

TLDR - In Euro soccer, you can buy domestic titles. The big prize is UEFA Champions League - it's where the best of the best teams from all Euro leagues compete.

you don't have to see it only as a sports achievement. include the personal circumstances, the mafia, the drugs, his personality...
and the italian league was not as it is today.
in todays nba comparison it would be something like:
winning 3 titles in 5 years with a mediocre knicks roster. vs the bulls in the 90s

[SkyHookFTW]

0 trolling, I deadass just want to know the answer to the question I asked and if people think Ronaldo better than him because that’s the best player I seen. I just watched on YouTube a little and I can’t tell.

So you know who Diego Maradona is, you just do not know how good he was. I don't either, it was before my time, I started watching the sport even just casually basically just in 2004, with Greece winning Euros, and I way below casual Football fan myself, I dont know crap. I dont know if hes better than Ronaldo, its hard to compare intergenerationally, tho I imagine most people will say that Maradona is better. He is one of those rare people who transcended the sport and become more popular than sport itself, and considering Football is most popular thing in the world, it says a lot. Maradona is god figure basically.

I think in Basketball, Michael Jordan is the only player who is like that, bigger than sport itself, most people do not watch Basketball but have heard of Jordan and could maybe even recognize him. In Football, People who were like that, were basically Maradona, and maybe Messi and Ronaldo, maybe Pele? Maybe I am wrong, but I think its like that. My mom knows Maradona, and she in her entire life probably knew under 5 non domestic sports athletes. I know she knows Maradona and Mike Tyson, thats how I know these guys are freaking popular

Maradona was probably the most famous athlete in the world for years. His "Goal of the Century" in the 1986 World Cup against England is stunning. He received the ball and dribbled past five English players to score. I couldn't believe this short (5'6") stocky player had so much skill. I wasn't even a soccer fan then but I saw that and went "Holy ****!!"

[byeganyo]

Maradona winning two titles with Napoli = Jokic winning two titles with Denver.

Napoli had a team to support Maradona with some talent, that of course wasnt going to be enough to win the title with anyone else.

[maradro]

Shouldnt we have on account against Maradona. Not being able to win la liga with Barcelona which actuslky won It The year he left?

Besides the fact that Maradona was only 22 and this was his first team in Europe, Barcelona hadn't won the title for more than 10 years when he joined. They won the league cup and super cup in his first season there.

In his second season a guy with the nickname "the Butcher of Bilbao" injured him with a brutal tackle that broke his foot in a way that it wasn't clear if he could ever play again. He missed 3 months and returned. After he returned they also played the cup final against Bilbao. He was racistly insulted all game long by Bilbao fans, received another brutal tackle from the same player and was generally targeted all game. Bilbao won the game, still on the pitch one of the Bilbao players said the same thing that the fans were chanting to his face and he snapped. He headbutted that player and an all out brawl between the teams started. During that brawl, Maradona knocked another player old cold with a knee to the head. Fans began throwing objects on the pitch, more than 60 people were injured in total. This all happened in front of the Spanish king, who was in the stadium. Afterwards Barcelona sold him, since there was no way that he could continue to play in Spain.

So not winning a title when he could only play about 50% of league games and was only there for 2 seasons is not really a big surprise.

Thanks for saving me from writing that

Maradona was already huge before the 86 world cup. He was like lebron but poorer, at age 14 he was already getting scouted for his skill. He lead the Argentine league in scoring 3 times iirc as a teenager.

The Barcelona he went to wasn't the Barcelona of today. Thats where the cocaine started. The Bilbao situation was ugly, i don't know if dinho, Messi, cristiano come back from something like that. So he basically gets exiled to Napoli, he promised he'd make them champs.. and he delivered. Vs the great super teams of football at the time. And with Argentina at the WC.

MJ had that combo of superior skills and killer instinct and mental toughness to liken the two, but the other big difference is that Jordan was clean cut and cautious with his public persona, while Maradona was outspoken and political. For example, Japan didnt let him in the country to commentate the WC because of his drug use, have you ever heard of Keith Richards or other celebrities getting that treatment? The famous 94wc failed drug test where the nurse comes out to get him on the field, have you ever seen this happen to any other player?? He talked a lot and got punished for it. I think that contributes a lot to him being unkown in the us, he criticized the us a lot and he wasn't allowed in the country, otherwise we would have seen him court side at NBA games.

Re: the hand of god, how many global superstars swimming in sponsorship deals are willing to sacrifice their reputation for the teams benefit? Lots of other similar examples (like Henry vs Ireland, rampant drug use at Juve, or better yet all the "hard men" celebrated for injuring opponents), I don't think it's a coincidence Maradona is always crucified for this stuff while others it just fades away. All of those things make Maradona an antihero for the teams he played on. We literally worship the man

The basketball equivalent I like to use is if Iverson beat Shaq and Kobe, and even that is selling him short

Finally, fútbol has changed a ton, players today play a lot of matches against a lot of crappy teams, there are multiple tiers of tournaments, before there were much less games. For any country you choose, check who is their top NT goal scorer and it will be a current gen player who has played twice the games as his 80s counterpart. Napoli won a UEFA cup with Maradona, he beat Juventus and Bayern Munich on the way to the title, because the champions league was a tiny tournament reserved for domestic champs. You can't compare stats across eras like that.. and if Napoli was another PSG/man city/Chelsea like team then why did they fall off the map after Maradona left? It's not like they had a salary cap to deal with.. anyways Maradona is the more impressive feat and he's still my GOAT

[Sedale Threatt]

in our times there will not be anything like this because today he would be filtered out by sports academies as a liability

With the amount of money that has poured into the game, and the insatiable need so many clubs have for offensive difference-makers? I don't believe that at all. He'd obviously have to live a totally difference lifestyle and get a handle on his addiction in a way he didn't during his era. But as we see in all sports, if you're that talented you're gonna get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th chances.

[Sedale Threatt]

Finally, fútbol has changed a ton, players today play a lot of matches against a lot of crappy teams

I wouldn't say this is untrue -- at the very least, they play more matches -- but having lived in England when I was a kid in the late 80s, the difference between the old First Division and the Premier League isn't even remotely comparable.

They barely even had any foreign players at that point and it was a badge of honor to go out and regularly get sht-faced after games, to the point that you would be a pariah on some teams if you didn't. Chris Waddle, for example, played most of his career with a pot belly and he was one of the best players in Europe. Just the difference in tempo, with the emphasis on pressing across the entire pitch, is in a totally different stratosphere. I loved some of those players -- Lineker, Waddle, Robson, Walker, Barnes, etc -- but in pretty much every way you can measure the sport it is a totally different and vastly superior game. You used to be able to languish on the ball in midfield and pick out your target; now if you don't make split-second decisions you're getting tackled and the ball is going the other way.

Hell, even when you're playing relegation fodder I still don't take a road Premier League match for granted just because, with all the money available, even bad teams can buy a handful of good players who can cause you real problems if you fkc around. So while I would agree that most leagues definitely have their minnows, that has always been the case. Overall, like most other sports, I don't see how anybody can argue with a straight face that football hasn't improved by leaps and bounds over the past 30 years, particularly in Europe after effectively strip-mining the rest of the world for the top talent.

[Pablo Escobar]

Honorable mention. The original Ronaldo winning a world cup and Ballon D'or after rupturing every ligament in his knee.