Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today

[babyjax13]

Wouldn't even be an all-star given his lack of creation and pass first game, combined with a much stronger league.

He was still an above average starter at 40 in 02-03. That means Shaq & Kobe Lakers, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen Spurs, Nowitzki, Nash Finley Mavericks, Webber, Stojakovic, Bibby Kings to name a few teams.

He played against some of the best point guards in history (Magic, Isiah, Penny, Tim Hardaway, KJ, Mark Price, GP, JKidd and so on) and made the All Star team in 3 different decades. He is All time leader in Assists and Steals. He is 7th All time in Win Shares, 3rd All time in VORP and 8th all time in BPM.

What part of his game would not translate into today's NBA? In what area does he have skill gaps?

Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

Chris Paul.

[babyjax13]

Lol over doncic ????????

I think he's referring to best TRUE PG...as in, pass first and running the offense, rather than score-first and reacting to the defense. CP3, Jason Kidd, Rondo, Steve Nash fit this mold.

'Pass-first' PGs as an archetype are obsolete in 2024 lol. In good teams there are often other playmakers who can do the job of scoring and playmaking at the same time. PGs that can't apply good scoring pressure in volume (and that's not Stockton and his career 13 ppg playoffs) just don't get to dominate the ball in a way that is necessary to rack up assist counts like they used to. The closest one is Haliburton and he's still a significantly more aggressive scorer, especially pre-injury.

I just don't think they are irrelevant. Mike Conley, Chris Paul, and Kyle Lowry have held on for a long, long time by being players of this archetype. That they are still relevant at their ages suggests that it still has value to teams - there just aren't many players of this archetype coming into the league. I would, however, agree with you if a guy is basically Eric Snow - someone with no offensive skill whatsoever.

[uncleduck13]

CP3 was an All-Star a few years ago, averaging 14/11, so I’m sure Stockton would be okay.
That said, Steve Nash would be way better in today’s league.

[One_and_Done]

I mean I don't see any argument for him to be a top 5 PG today, because guys like SGA, Luka, Curry, Brunson, Morant, even Lillard, Hali, etc, exist. Heck, I'd take Harden over him, even with how he's fallen off.

But ... But, you had him around the 15, 25-30 range right lmao

GG my friend

I have him in the borderline 25-30 range of players today, not of point guards. It's borderline though. I can easily name 25 players better than Stockton today.

[One_and_Done]

He was still an above average starter at 40 in 02-03. That means Shaq & Kobe Lakers, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen Spurs, Nowitzki, Nash Finley Mavericks, Webber, Stojakovic, Bibby Kings to name a few teams.

He played against some of the best point guards in history (Magic, Isiah, Penny, Tim Hardaway, KJ, Mark Price, GP, JKidd and so on) and made the All Star team in 3 different decades. He is All time leader in Assists and Steals. He is 7th All time in Win Shares, 3rd All time in VORP and 8th all time in BPM.

What part of his game would not translate into today's NBA? In what area does he have skill gaps?

Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

Chris Paul.

C.Paul is an MVP calibre player who is better than Stockton at literally everything. Stockton couldn't sniff MVP is the weaker era he played in. It would be like me comparing Rik Smits with Wemby, or M.Harrell to Barkley, or Ingram to Durant. There are superficial similarities, but one is a completely different player to the other.

[One_and_Done]

The OP wasn’t super specific about just plopping him out of nowhere via some magical mystery Time Machine. Why do some posters frame every argument like this? (Oh, I know exactly why, it’s a rhetorical question)

Why would he not similarly benefit from modern everything?

Not an all star? Asinine.

I rate guys based on how they actually played, not on how I imagine they might have played in different circumstances. If we rate players that way I can imagine Shaq hitting his FTs, KG as a 50% 3pt shooter, Sheed with a better attitude, Walton with full health thanks to modern medicine, Len Bias if he lived, etc. See the problem?

You HAVE to give some skilled old school perimeter players a bump un this era because the game has been made much easier for perimeter players to succeed. I agree in not changing Stockton's mentality but the painted area is wide open in this era and teams have three point shooters all up and down the roster. Stockton's points absolutely have to increase.

I am happy to assume Stockton would deploy his skillset in a more modern way, but I'm not going to give him a new skillset.

[babyjax13]

Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

Chris Paul.

C.Paul is an MVP calibre player who is better than Stockton at literally everything. Stockton couldn't sniff MVP is the weaker era he played in. It would be like me comparing Rik Smits with Wemby, or K.Faried to Barkley, or Ingram to Durant. There are superficial similarities, but one is a completely different player to the other.

Stockton is an 11-time all-NBA player (2x 1st team, 6x 2nd team, 3x 3rd team), 5x all-defense, and 10x all-star. I'll agree that Paul has a bit more to offer, but minimizing his impact and accomplishments seems a bit silly, especially relative to Paul who has been a 11x all-NBA (4x 1st team, 5x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team) 9x all-defense, and 12x all-star. Those are similar resumes - though with a clear edge to Paul (who also finished top-10 in MVP voting 10x and top 5x relative to Stockton's 5x top-10 and 0x top-5). But the question was what archetype does he fit into, and it is certainly the same archetype Conley and Paul have fit into and continue to fill despite their age because it has value. Stockton in the modern era would still be an excellent player, certainly a top 5 point guard right now, and if he scales up his attempts from 3 (which I imagine he would, assuming he developed in the context of the modern game) he might be top 2 or 3.

[SlimShady83]

I mean I don't see any argument for him to be a top 5 PG today, because guys like SGA, Luka, Curry, Brunson, Morant, even Lillard, Hali, etc, exist. Heck, I'd take Harden over him, even with how he's fallen off.

But ... But, you had him around the 15, 25-30 range right lmao

GG my friend

I have him in the borderline 25-30 range of players today, not of point guards. It's borderline though. I can easily name 25 players better than Stockton today.

It's my Saturday morning and eating home made pizza haha. I myself have Stockton around the 15-25 range all time some where around there, but that's not what this thread Is about and It's why I had a go at you...

Thread Is about " Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today" ... Not all time and you go on talking about all time and the allstar game etc... It's not about that It's just where "you" rank him In today's game as a PG, pretty simple and then you go on say his easily around the 15, 25-30 range of point guards, which Is what I got out of it and now you saying you mean all time? again not about all time, It's about where you rank him In today as a PG.

Peace.

[Moose]

How many here have watched prime Stockton?

He wasn't even in his prime when the Jazz faced the Bulls.

[One_and_Done]

Chris Paul.

C.Paul is an MVP calibre player who is better than Stockton at literally everything. Stockton couldn't sniff MVP is the weaker era he played in. It would be like me comparing Rik Smits with Wemby, or K.Faried to Barkley, or Ingram to Durant. There are superficial similarities, but one is a completely different player to the other.

Stockton is an 11-time all-NBA player (2x 1st team, 6x 2nd team, 3x 3rd team), 5x all-defense, and 10x all-star. I'll agree that Paul has a bit more to offer, but minimizing his impact and accomplishments seems a bit silly, especially relative to Paul who has been a 11x all-NBA (4x 1st team, 5x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team) 9x all-defense, and 12x all-star. Those are similar resumes - though with a clear edge to Paul (who also finished top-10 in MVP voting 10x and top 5x relative to Stockton's 5x top-10 and 0x top-5). But the question was what archetype does he fit into, and it is certainly the same archetype Conley and Paul have fit into and continue to fill despite their age because it has value. Stockton in the modern era would still be an excellent player, certainly a top 5 point guard right now, and if he scales up his attempts from 3 (which I imagine he would, assuming he developed in the context of the modern game) he might be top 2 or 3.

He made his 2 first teams in years where injuries and retirements cleared the field. He was not a genuine all-nba 1st team player, in the same way J.Noah was not. Stockton's MVP vote was generally between 7-17 on the highside. On the whole, he was a top 15 type player in his prime. Today, the quality of players has gone up and that translates to maybe a top 25-30 spot. Paul missed out on some all-nba teams due to injuries and superior competition, but he was an MVP calibre player in his prime. He was frankly robbed blind in 08 by Kobe. Stockton was never that kind of player.

Conley is a better comp for Stockton, but Conley made exactly 1all-star team as an injury replacement, so that's not exactly a strong rebuttal to my position.

Stockton's style of play doesn't exist anymore among star guards. To to a star today you need to be able to score a tonne off high PnR. More accurately, you need to be able to create separation with your moves and shake, to create the opportunities modern lead guards generate. It's not even about athleticism, because Harden and Nash weren't exactly speedsters, bit both of those guys had insane dribbling, moves and shake that let them manipulate defences. Stockton was just not that sort of player. He was a pass first point guard who did not beat guys off the dribble much. The famed Jazz PnR would be amateurish by today's PnR standards.

Without the ability to create that separation, there's a hard ceiling on what Stockton can do, even if you think his shooting and D would translate. Personally I feel his shooting is being a bit overrated, given the lack of focus defences had on 3pt shooting back then (Stockton wasn't taking high difficulty shots mostly), but that's a secondary issue.

[One_and_Done]

How many here have watched prime Stockton?

He wasn't even in his prime when the Jazz faced the Bulls.

In his prime he was too busy being swept by the likes of the 43 win Warriors in the first round.

[prophet_of_rage]

I feel it's unfortunate when people conflate having a different opinion with trolling. The NBA is tougher these days than it was in Stockton's day. The result of that is Stockton drops down from being a borderline top 15 player to being borderline top 25-30. Since only 24 guys make an all-star team, he drops out. This shouldn't be regarded as a particularly controversial opinion.

The OP wasn’t super specific about just plopping him out of nowhere via some magical mystery Time Machine. Why do some posters frame every argument like this? (Oh, I know exactly why, it’s a rhetorical question)

Why would he not similarly benefit from modern everything?

Not an all star? Asinine.

Because then you are creating a fantasy player. With today's nutrition I can say John Stockton would have been a 6'5.shootong guard. If you don't keep.their skillset the same there is no point in even debating it because the answer can be based on any made up thing.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[bledredwine]

I mean I don't see any argument for him to be a top 5 PG today, because guys like SGA, Luka, Curry, Brunson, Morant, even Lillard, Hali, etc, exist. Heck, I'd take Harden over him, even with how he's fallen off.

But ... But, you had him around the 15, 25-30 range right lmao

GG my friend

I have him in the borderline 25-30 range of players today, not of point guards. It's borderline though. I can easily name 25 players better than Stockton today.

Like Jayson Tatum and Marcus Smart, for example?

[SelfishPlayer]

I rate guys based on how they actually played, not on how I imagine they might have played in different circumstances. If we rate players that way I can imagine Shaq hitting his FTs, KG as a 50% 3pt shooter, Sheed with a better attitude, Walton with full health thanks to modern medicine, Len Bias if he lived, etc. See the problem?

You HAVE to give some skilled old school perimeter players a bump un this era because the game has been made much easier for perimeter players to succeed. I agree in not changing Stockton's mentality but the painted area is wide open in this era and teams have three point shooters all up and down the roster. Stockton's points absolutely have to increase.

I am happy to assume Stockton would deploy his skillset in a more modern way, but I'm not going to give him a new skillset.

No new skills needed. He shot over 50% from the field for his entire career and went to the free throw line 5.5 times a game one season. Stockton is going to attack the paint far more as the 6'8" centers of today will mandate.

[One_and_Done]

You HAVE to give some skilled old school perimeter players a bump un this era because the game has been made much easier for perimeter players to succeed. I agree in not changing Stockton's mentality but the painted area is wide open in this era and teams have three point shooters all up and down the roster. Stockton's points absolutely have to increase.

I am happy to assume Stockton would deploy his skillset in a more modern way, but I'm not going to give him a new skillset.

No new skills needed. He shot over 50% from the field for his entire career and went to the free throw line 5.5 times a game one season. Stockton is going to attack the paint far more as the 6'8" centers of today will mandate.

Back then nobody guarded the 3pt shot much. Today the whole defence is geared around stopping the 3. Stockton mostly shot wide open, low difficulty shots. He wasn't hitting off the dribble, contested, or 30+ foot 3s like top shooters today do. As I noted above though, shooting is a secondary issue.

[SelfishPlayer]

I see that people are stressing his handle and how he doesn't have an arsenal of dribbling moves. No one has to have a huge bag of dribbling moves in any era especially when you can play WITHOUT THE BASKETBALL.

Watch on YouTube

[canada_dry]

How many times did he dribble with his left hand in his 20 year career?

Just asking.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[One_and_Done]

I see that people are stressing his handle and how he doesn't have an arsenal of dribbling moves. No one has to have a huge bag of dribbling moves in any era especially when you can play WITHOUT THE BASKETBALL.

Watch on YouTube

Yeh, if he's going to be an offball guard role player he'll be fine. He's not going to be an all-star guard without it though.

I'm kind of alarmed that someone thought this video was going to bolster Stockton's case. It's confirming all my concerns.

[SelfishPlayer]

I see that people are stressing his handle and how he doesn't have an arsenal of dribbling moves. No one has to have a huge bag of dribbling moves in any era especially when you can play WITHOUT THE BASKETBALL.

Watch on YouTube

Yeh, if he's going to be an offball guard role player he'll be fine. He's not going to be an all-star guard without it though.

I'm kind of alarmed that someone thought this video was going to bolster Stockton's case. It's confirming all my concerns.

It went over your head. He plays a complete floor game down to the defense and steals.

[One_and_Done]

I see that people are stressing his handle and how he doesn't have an arsenal of dribbling moves. No one has to have a huge bag of dribbling moves in any era especially when you can play WITHOUT THE BASKETBALL.

Watch on YouTube

Yeh, if he's going to be an offball guard role player he'll be fine. He's not going to be an all-star guard without it though.

I'm kind of alarmed that someone thought this video was going to bolster Stockton's case. It's confirming all my concerns.

It went over your head. He plays a complete floor game down to the defense and steals.

A jack of all trades is less valuable than a specialist.