Is Jamal Murray washed?

[Ito]

I didn’t fall for the hype when he was hot but he’s prolly just going through a slump or lacks motivation to get better since they won a ring.. prolly would have to go through some criticism, a change or some losing to get back on track.. or maybe Jokic has played even better than he was before and has taken on a bigger role and leaves him out the mix

[dhsilv2]

Jokic is really wasting one of the best primes we've seen in league history on this clownshow of an organization. Tragic that he's gonna end his career like Dirk. He's got his one championship and now has to watch his organization tear about that championship team with stupid decisions every offseason.

Nuggets have done better than most to assemble talent.

On plenty of other organisations he never wins a ring.

I mean he is literally the only MVP to play this many seasons without even 1 allstar teammate. You might be right, but lets not down play that his support is historically bad.

[WarriorGM]

It's concerning that this is his age 27 year which should mean he is near his peak and he is shooting so poorly. Without knowing anything else I suspect there is a lingering injury hampering his play.

[tsherkin]

It's concerning that this is his age 27 year which should mean he is near his peak and he is shooting so poorly. Without knowing anything else I suspect there is a lingering injury hampering his play.

He's had basically nothing BUT mobility injuries to this point in his career. It drags him down, no question. He doesn't have the size or power to do much, he relies on his burst and on his J. When the J's falling, he's in good shape, but that comes and goes on a nightly basis. He has never been especially good at getting to the rim, nor has he generally been particularly adept at drawing fouls. In fact, prior to the active season, he's not only never had a league-average season in terms of FTr, he's had more seasons under 80 FTr+ (5) than at or over (2).

This becomes problematic in the extreme when you don't have the speed/mobility to get where you want on the court, and then is compounded in a season like this one where the 3 isn't falling.

[AleksandarN]

Jamal has more turnovers than 3pters made. Let that sink in

[zimpy27]

Jokic is really wasting one of the best primes we've seen in league history on this clownshow of an organization. Tragic that he's gonna end his career like Dirk. He's got his one championship and now has to watch his organization tear about that championship team with stupid decisions every offseason.

Nuggets have done better than most to assemble talent.

On plenty of other organisations he never wins a ring.

I mean he is literally the only MVP to play this many seasons without even 1 allstar teammate. You might be right, but lets not down play that his support is historically bad.

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

[WarriorGM]

Jamal has more turnovers than 3pters made. Let that sink in

That doesn't really seem to be that surprising a stat. Same with SGA and Doncic for example.

[Peregrine01]

It's concerning that this is his age 27 year which should mean he is near his peak and he is shooting so poorly. Without knowing anything else I suspect there is a lingering injury hampering his play.

He's had basically nothing BUT mobility injuries to this point in his career. It drags him down, no question. He doesn't have the size or power to do much, he relies on his burst and on his J. When the J's falling, he's in good shape, but that comes and goes on a nightly basis. He has never been especially good at getting to the rim, nor has he generally been particularly adept at drawing fouls. In fact, prior to the active season, he's not only never had a league-average season in terms of FTr, he's had more seasons under 80 FTr+ (5) than at or over (2).

This becomes problematic in the extreme when you don't have the speed/mobility to get where you want on the court, and then is compounded in a season like this one where the 3 isn't falling.

Even when he was healthy, he was always a guy that relied on unsustainable tough shot-making. Was never a guy who could pressure the defense in anyway without Jokic.

[tsherkin]

Even when he was healthy, he was always a guy that relied on unsustainable tough shot-making. Was never a guy who could pressure the defense in anyway without Jokic.

Yeah, he was never a #1. And so as you move away from that, guys have flaws. Hell, even #1s have flaws. So I wonder. If Murray could get healthy, where would he be right now? Would he be enough?

As I look at the bits which people use to support him, or the reverse, it comes back to the postseason, right? 2020 and 2023. But in 2020, he shot over 45% from 3 on over 7 per game. And in 2023, it's a little series-to-series. Strong versus Minny, shooting the blazes out of the 3. Bleh versus Phoenix (below playoff league average TS%). Incandescent versus LA, and then bleh again versus the Heat.

Hard to get a read on his true value, and how sustainable that might be.

In a way, it's kind of like evaluating Ant, really. Ant is kinda bleh in the RS but has some big postseason performances. Which one's the real player? Which one will sustain over time, and which will normalize/evolve?

Murray's a small guy. He DOESN'T bash his way to the rim. So the injuries are, in some respects, a little surprising. He shoots, a lot. 39% of his shots on his career are threes, and another ~ 29% are from 10-23 feet. With PnR entry, DHOs and pull-ups, we're talking about near to 70% of his shooting volume on jumpers beyond ten feet. And he has a pretty good short game, too. And yet he's perpetually injured and struggling to get to spots, struggling to establish consistency, struggling to get it done.

Makes you wonder.

[dhsilv2]

Nuggets have done better than most to assemble talent.

On plenty of other organisations he never wins a ring.

I mean he is literally the only MVP to play this many seasons without even 1 allstar teammate. You might be right, but lets not down play that his support is historically bad.

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

[tsherkin]

I mean he is literally the only MVP to play this many seasons without even 1 allstar teammate. You might be right, but lets not down play that his support is historically bad.

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

[zimpy27]

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

Mo Williams was an all star, clearly far superior to Murray and Gordon. /s


The fact that Nuggets won a championship highlights the job Denver has done. As I say, the Denver roster is worth the money spent on it outside of Jokic. The only true negative deal is the Nnaji one.

[tsherkin]

[
Mo Williams was an all star, clearly far superior to Murray and Gordon. /s

THat's a good one, I literally LOL'd. xD

The fact that Nuggets won a championship highlights the job Denver has done. As I say, the Denver roster is worth the money spent on it outside of Jokic. The only true negative deal is the Nnaji one.

It worked. That doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws or issues now. But it did work once, that's true. At the time, it was enough.

[Sgt Major]

Yup, completely.

[nomansland]

He's not injured. He's out of shape and he doesn't seem to care very much. That plus a dose of arrogance is not a good mix.

In the past it was easier to defend him because he had a killer instinct and was a leader when it came time to buckle down. But his detractors are going to come out in droves if this trajectory continues. I hope he can turn it around because it's kind of sad to watch.

[Peregrine01]

He's not injured. He's out of shape and he doesn't seem to care very much. That plus a dose of arrogance is not a good mix.

In the past it was easier to defend him because he had a killer instinct and was a leader when it came time to buckle down. But his detractors are going to come out in droves if this trajectory continues. I hope he can turn it around because it's kind of sad to watch.

This isn’t a trajectory…it’s who he is at this point. When was the last time he had 2 good games in a row? And this despite playing with the best big a guard can ever hope to play with. Just bad games after bad games after bad games. He just sucks.

[nomansland]

He's not injured. He's out of shape and he doesn't seem to care very much. That plus a dose of arrogance is not a good mix.

In the past it was easier to defend him because he had a killer instinct and was a leader when it came time to buckle down. But his detractors are going to come out in droves if this trajectory continues. I hope he can turn it around because it's kind of sad to watch.

This isn’t a trajectory…it’s who he is at this point. When was the last time he had 2 good games in a row? And this despite playing with the best big a guard can ever hope to play with. Just bad games after bad games after bad games. He just sucks.

Just because he sucks right now doesn't mean he's incapable of turning things around. But I sure hope he doesn't keep getting worse. We'll see. He is only 27 after all.

[Peregrine01]

He's not injured. He's out of shape and he doesn't seem to care very much. That plus a dose of arrogance is not a good mix.

In the past it was easier to defend him because he had a killer instinct and was a leader when it came time to buckle down. But his detractors are going to come out in droves if this trajectory continues. I hope he can turn it around because it's kind of sad to watch.

This isn’t a trajectory…it’s who he is at this point. When was the last time he had 2 good games in a row? And this despite playing with the best big a guard can ever hope to play with. Just bad games after bad games after bad games. He just sucks.

Just because he sucks right now doesn't mean he's incapable of turning things around. But I sure hope he doesn't keep getting worse. We'll see. He is only 27 after all.

I'm not going to hold my breath. His game never had anything to suggest that he's an all-star talent. Never had the burst or craftiness to pressure the defense and was always reliant on Jokic to get any offense off reliably. His calling card has always been his jumper and now it's completely deserted him. What's the worth of a low-motor, injury-prone guard who can't get to the rim, doesn't have great playmaking instincts or feel and now can't even shoot? Not much. There's plenty of guards who are now completely out of the league for less...Murray is set to make >$50 mil a year.

Doc Rivers put it very well in a podcast interview once when he said that he'd be very skeptical about the trade value of anyone on the Nuggets' roster since Jokic makes them look so much better than they actually are. The Nuggets front office should've known this first hand and they gave away what might well be the worst contract in NBA history.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

It's concerning that this is his age 27 year which should mean he is near his peak and he is shooting so poorly. Without knowing anything else I suspect there is a lingering injury hampering his play.

He's had basically nothing BUT mobility injuries to this point in his career. It drags him down, no question. He doesn't have the size or power to do much, he relies on his burst and on his J. When the J's falling, he's in good shape, but that comes and goes on a nightly basis. He has never been especially good at getting to the rim, nor has he generally been particularly adept at drawing fouls. In fact, prior to the active season, he's not only never had a league-average season in terms of FTr, he's had more seasons under 80 FTr+ (5) than at or over (2).

This becomes problematic in the extreme when you don't have the speed/mobility to get where you want on the court, and then is compounded in a season like this one where the 3 isn't falling.

is he? there has been several whispers contradicting that during training camp

[Crunch 99]

Given his consecutive poor play in '24 playoffs, Olympics and this early season, I understand raising the washed question, but it's too early to say. Other than missing 23 games last regular season, 23-24 was Murray's best regular season.

Regardless, he is a suspect max contract guy. His injury history combined with reaching 65 games only one time in last four seasons is concerning.