Is SGA an underrated scorer or was Kobe overrated?

[OkcSinceSGA]

Kobe **** hard on SGA and it's not even close. Stop looking at stats today's game isn't comparable in anyway to the league Kobe played in.

Go and look at SGA stats in the tournament finals when the refs swallowed their whistles. That **** OKC team would barely get to 90ppg on a good day with 2000s refs. He's nothing near Kobe.


Even geriatric Lebron averages 20+ now, the offensive stats in the league mean nothing now. Prime Kobe would rip this league up for 40ppg on good efficiency for free. You're comparing 5 rings to uhh whatever SGA is

"**** hard on" is a huge stretch lol. We don't even know if Kobe was greater individually, let alone being "not even close". I give Kobe an edge for sure for playing in the more physical era, but I think SGA is also a way higher IQ, less selfish, better all around guy than Kobe.

So my personal assessment is both guys are a similar tier of player. Giving Kobe the benefit of the doubt on playing vs better competition rivals and in a time where guards got banged up nonstop (as to why his efficiency is lower). Both guys will go down as top 10 all time guards, and top 5 all time SG's most likely (Kobe being there now, and assuming SGA continues this level of peak for several more years).

As others are saying, SGA needs to win rings before we say he's BETTER than guys like Kobe with 5 rings that individually were just as great.

underrated has to do with perception
tim was the most underrated superstar with rings because he was little known - he was not out there and chose not to be
similarly, sga is "not known" and he won't be until he wins a ring. you can blame many things but one reason is the most obvious that you all haven't addressed. sga/okc suffers from lack of visibility. that's what this overrated/underrated thing is all about.

winning a ring validates sga, might also get okc more pt on network television. then he will no longer be underrated. he will start to become "OVERRATED" as all ring winners tend to be. underrated players suffer from anonymity

No doubt that perception and narrative is a huge part of this. Also agree in the smaller market aspect. Warriors were a big market team that was bad for 20 years basically. Loyal but not huge fanbase really. Now they are the second most popular team in the league after the Lakers after a dynasty run. If OKC runs off a couple titles I have no doubt people will view OKC differently.

[cupcakesnake]

Kobe would put stupid numbers if he played in todays world with 5 out pace and space teammates.

I think this assumption doesn't really fit with Kobe's actual paying style. The type of star who thrives in a 5-out offense is a ball handling rim attacker/playmaker. Kobe, at his core combined strong movement shooting with a resilient post up game that he could extend out to the elbows. We're not talking about a high-volume driver. The cool thing about Kobe was that he excelled at scoring in cramped spaces. He could destroy his matchup, or slice defenses apart off-the ball and pop into short range jumpers.

He famously emulated MJ, but the reality of that was he emulated MJ's counters, rather than his primary driving action. As a driver, Kobe was very good, but never elite at an all-time level. Super young Kobe attacked the rim with a lot of springs, but statistically that doesn't hold up past age 21. In his prime, Kobe became deadly in the short midrange, but by that time, his rim numbers were very pedestrian.

Kobe putting up stupid numbers in a modern context, would require him expanding his range. He's not Luka, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, there's just no evidence he can destroy you with rim buckets if you just give him space. To me, Kobe game is more like if you combine Demar's midrange game with a 2-point getting version of Steph or Reggie.

I feel people say this kind of stuff about Kobe and Iverson a lot, but in truth, those kinds of players were the guys benefitting from their era by being the toughest shot makers of long 2s. The ability to get that shot against the monster paint defenses of the early 2000s was a huge part of their value. I don't see intuitively how that translates to the modern game without radically re-imagining their play style and inventing a very hypothetical player.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe is an all time great and Shai is not. Shame on you all.

If Shai played his first 8 years with prime Shaq in a weaker era he'd have a bunch of titles too.

[SkyBill40]

Bryant is and always will be, to objective basketball fans anyway, hugely overrated. His game was about volume attempts and selfishness rather than efficiency and teamwork.

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His career scoring efficiency mark (104 TS+) was slightly worse than Larry Bird's (105 TS+) and he won 5 titles and made 7 Finals. Plus, the Lakers were consistently one of the very best passing teams in the league, ranking #1 or #2 in team passing rating from 2000 through 2011. These are objective facts, but you people are deranged. Stop sippin on that haterade.

What a coincidence, I have Kobe slightly behind Bird in all time rankings. Point being, nobody is saying Kobe is bad. He is one of the best players of all time, but people who consider him a GOAT candidate are overrating him.

Ooooh, lookie there. Someone gets it.

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[tsherkin]

I knew someone would say that. my 3pt remark while not statistically relevant,,, the massive increase in 3's reflects the attitude of the evolution of the game's offense. however, be that as it may, the underrated overrated position is a reflection of an apt perspective and that is, kobe won and sga hasn't won YET.

But again, the 3pt shooting isn't salient to a comparison between these two players. Especially since SGA plays a lot more like someone from the 90s/2000s than most other guys in the league. It just isn't a useful thing to have added to this conversation, was my point.

all winners are overrated by the naysayers and they pull out the numbers to prove it. what they don't do is address the hard point that kobe WON. and concomitantly players like sga are yes "underrated", and they will continue to be because the end game is always winning the ring - that justifies everything. part of the underrated perception is sga is little known(by the public) and he is little known because he hasn't won a thing

Kobe won when he had appropriate talent to do so. And we shall see if SGA does the same. Winning, however, is still a team-based achievement, so that does play a role in how much weight that gets in an individual comparison. Particularly when we're specifically discussing scoring.

[Primedeion]

His career scoring efficiency mark (104 TS+) was slightly worse than Larry Bird's (105 TS+) and he won 5 titles and made 7 Finals. Plus, the Lakers were consistently one of the very best passing teams in the league, ranking #1 or #2 in team passing rating from 2000 through 2011. These are objective facts, but you people are deranged. Stop sippin on that haterade.

What a coincidence, I have Kobe slightly behind Bird in all time rankings. Point being, nobody is saying Kobe is bad. He is one of the best players of all time, but people who consider him a GOAT candidate are overrating him.

Ooooh, lookie there. Someone gets it.

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Oooo, lookie here. Someone who ignores stats and evidence in favor of moronic BSPN level narratives. You didn't know the guy, buddy, but keep telling us more about what he "clearly" was as a person.

[maradro]

Kobe would put stupid numbers if he played in todays world with 5 out pace and space teammates.

I think this assumption doesn't really fit with Kobe's actual paying style. The type of star who thrives in a 5-out offense is a ball handling rim attacker/playmaker. Kobe, at his core combined strong movement shooting with a resilient post up game that he could extend out to the elbows. We're not talking about a high-volume driver. The cool thing about Kobe was that he excelled at scoring in cramped spaces. He could destroy his matchup, or slice defenses apart off-the ball and pop into short range jumpers.

He famously emulated MJ, but the reality of that was he emulated MJ's counters, rather than his primary driving action. As a driver, Kobe was very good, but never elite at an all-time level. Super young Kobe attacked the rim with a lot of springs, but statistically that doesn't hold up past age 21. In his prime, Kobe became deadly in the short midrange, but by that time, his rim numbers were very pedestrian.

Kobe putting up stupid numbers in a modern context, would require him expanding his range. He's not Luka, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, there's just no evidence he can destroy you with rim buckets if you just give him space. To me, Kobe game is more like if you combine Demar's midrange game with a 2-point getting version of Steph or Reggie.

I feel people say this kind of stuff about Kobe and Iverson a lot, but in truth, those kinds of players were the guys benefitting from their era by being the toughest shot makers of long 2s. The ability to get that shot against the monster paint defenses of the early 2000s was a huge part of their value. I don't see intuitively how that translates to the modern game without radically re-imagining their play style and inventing a very hypothetical player.

I understand the logic and agree with the assessment of the players, but you can't discount how the play style would necessarily change the approach. When people say Iverson or Kobe would be better today, yeah some exaggerate and say they'd average 40 or whatever.. but you'd have to assume with a spread floor and less contact allowed they would be attacking the hole a lot more and they were certainly capable of it...

I've come to the point where I think it's pointless to compare numbers and accolades across eras, all that said Kobe is overrated and SGA is underrated and it's all about titles and markets and nothing to do with stats

[SkyBill40]

What a coincidence, I have Kobe slightly behind Bird in all time rankings. Point being, nobody is saying Kobe is bad. He is one of the best players of all time, but people who consider him a GOAT candidate are overrating him.

Ooooh, lookie there. Someone gets it.

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Oooo, lookie here. Someone who ignores stats and evidence in favor of moronic BSPN level narratives. You didn't know the guy, buddy, but keep telling us more about what he "clearly" was as a person.

I love it when someone argues from false authority. It's adorable. But do continue.

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[One_and_Done]

What a coincidence, I have Kobe slightly behind Bird in all time rankings. Point being, nobody is saying Kobe is bad. He is one of the best players of all time, but people who consider him a GOAT candidate are overrating him.

Ooooh, lookie there. Someone gets it.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Oooo, lookie here. Someone who ignores stats and evidence in favor of moronic BSPN level narratives. You didn't know the guy, buddy, but keep telling us more about what he "clearly" was as a person.

No need to take his word, his coach wrote 2 books that were more scathing of Kobe than we could ever be.

[Patches Perry]

Kobe would put stupid numbers if he played in todays world with 5 out pace and space teammates.

I think this assumption doesn't really fit with Kobe's actual paying style. The type of star who thrives in a 5-out offense is a ball handling rim attacker/playmaker. Kobe, at his core combined strong movement shooting with a resilient post up game that he could extend out to the elbows. We're not talking about a high-volume driver. The cool thing about Kobe was that he excelled at scoring in cramped spaces. He could destroy his matchup, or slice defenses apart off-the ball and pop into short range jumpers.

He famously emulated MJ, but the reality of that was he emulated MJ's counters, rather than his primary driving action. As a driver, Kobe was very good, but never elite at an all-time level. Super young Kobe attacked the rim with a lot of springs, but statistically that doesn't hold up past age 21. In his prime, Kobe became deadly in the short midrange, but by that time, his rim numbers were very pedestrian.

Kobe putting up stupid numbers in a modern context, would require him expanding his range. He's not Luka, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, there's just no evidence he can destroy you with rim buckets if you just give him space. To me, Kobe game is more like if you combine Demar's midrange game with a 2-point getting version of Steph or Reggie.

I feel people say this kind of stuff about Kobe and Iverson a lot, but in truth, those kinds of players were the guys benefitting from their era by being the toughest shot makers of long 2s. The ability to get that shot against the monster paint defenses of the early 2000s was a huge part of their value. I don't see intuitively how that translates to the modern game without radically re-imagining their play style and inventing a very hypothetical player.

Really stellar post.

I'd also add that the brilliance of Kobe was the number of ways he could beat you. He had counters for everything, and counters for counters. Nothing in his "bag" was ultra deadly, but he had so many weapons that even in playoff series' where you could gameplan for him, he was difficult to cover. We see a lot of stars now who can "spam" certain moves and play styles during the regular season, but struggle when a team can lock in and gameplan for them in the playoffs. Kobe was just all-around polished in a way that taking away any single aspect of his game didn't throw him off too much.

[cupcakesnake]

Kobe would put stupid numbers if he played in todays world with 5 out pace and space teammates.

I think this assumption doesn't really fit with Kobe's actual paying style. The type of star who thrives in a 5-out offense is a ball handling rim attacker/playmaker. Kobe, at his core combined strong movement shooting with a resilient post up game that he could extend out to the elbows. We're not talking about a high-volume driver. The cool thing about Kobe was that he excelled at scoring in cramped spaces. He could destroy his matchup, or slice defenses apart off-the ball and pop into short range jumpers.

He famously emulated MJ, but the reality of that was he emulated MJ's counters, rather than his primary driving action. As a driver, Kobe was very good, but never elite at an all-time level. Super young Kobe attacked the rim with a lot of springs, but statistically that doesn't hold up past age 21. In his prime, Kobe became deadly in the short midrange, but by that time, his rim numbers were very pedestrian.

Kobe putting up stupid numbers in a modern context, would require him expanding his range. He's not Luka, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, there's just no evidence he can destroy you with rim buckets if you just give him space. To me, Kobe game is more like if you combine Demar's midrange game with a 2-point getting version of Steph or Reggie.

I feel people say this kind of stuff about Kobe and Iverson a lot, but in truth, those kinds of players were the guys benefitting from their era by being the toughest shot makers of long 2s. The ability to get that shot against the monster paint defenses of the early 2000s was a huge part of their value. I don't see intuitively how that translates to the modern game without radically re-imagining their play style and inventing a very hypothetical player.

I understand the logic and agree with the assessment of the players, but you can't discount how the play style would necessarily change the approach. When people say Iverson or Kobe would be better today, yeah some exaggerate and say they'd average 40 or whatever.. but you'd have to assume with a spread floor and less contact allowed they would be attacking the hole a lot more and they were certainly capable of it...

I've come to the point where I think it's pointless to compare numbers and accolades across eras, all that said Kobe is overrated and SGA is underrated and it's all about titles and markets and nothing to do with stats

I think it gets too hypothetical. There were big efficient rim attackers in Kobe/Iverson's era but it wasn't quite them. It was a lot of bigs like Shaq, Duncan, Zach Randolph, and then dudes like Tony Parker, Antawn Jamison, Grant Hill, and Gary Paton.

I don't picture Kobe's driving game being an entirely different thing with better spacing. I can see an uptick. I think Kobe had better skills though, in terms of what translates. I think Kobe would get much more credit for his movement shooting, and coaches would utilize that more extremely than the triangle dared to. I think Kobe would still be a chucker, but he'd have a lot more data on which shots were more efficient, and some of that is going to impact his game. Imagine running Kobe off staggered screens for easy midrange jumpers, but also using similar sets to force a switch that gives Kobe a favorable post mismatch. That would be cool. Yes, Kobe would run some pick & roll and have the ball in his hands a lot, but I don't see these parts of his game being what translate best.

He was a pretty amazing ball player and was kind of good at everything, so he'd be fine in any era. I have a different opinion on what modern Kobe would look like though. Not in terms of ranking or pedigree, but in terms of playstyle.

[Primedeion]

Ooooh, lookie there. Someone gets it.

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Oooo, lookie here. Someone who ignores stats and evidence in favor of moronic BSPN level narratives. You didn't know the guy, buddy, but keep telling us more about what he "clearly" was as a person.

I love it when someone argues from false authority. It's adorable. But do continue.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Ok, champ. Keep telling us about the personal qualities of a dude you never met.

[SkyBill40]

Oooo, lookie here. Someone who ignores stats and evidence in favor of moronic BSPN level narratives. You didn't know the guy, buddy, but keep telling us more about what he "clearly" was as a person.

I love it when someone argues from false authority. It's adorable. But do continue.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Ok, champ. Keep telling us about the personal qualities of a dude you never met.

No, no. Please regale us with personal stories of your own with Kobe Bryant. Why not call Vanessa while you're at it?

I never spoke as if I knew him. You're the one that made the asinine insinuation. FOH with that pure nonsense. And what if I had? I know better than to bring anecdotes into a discussion as if they meant something truly meaningful. Save that stuff for the fallacies crowd.

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[SpreeChokeJob]

Kobe overrated. People remember his makes more than his misses and he missed a ton.

[One_and_Done]

Oooo, lookie here. Someone who ignores stats and evidence in favor of moronic BSPN level narratives. You didn't know the guy, buddy, but keep telling us more about what he "clearly" was as a person.

I love it when someone argues from false authority. It's adorable. But do continue.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Ok, champ. Keep telling us about the personal qualities of a dude you never met.

His coach knew him pretty well. How does he describe him in his 2 books? He basically spends multiple chapters ripping into Kobe.

[fansse]

Comparing SGA to Kobe? If you were a GM, who would you pick objectively if you needed a scorer? Franchise player? Come on lol

[SkyBill40]

I love it when someone argues from false authority. It's adorable. But do continue.

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Ok, champ. Keep telling us about the personal qualities of a dude you never met.

His coach knew him pretty well. How does he describe him in his 2 books? He basically spends multiple chapters ripping into Kobe.

I know you told him that, but he's clearly more interested in making personal yet fallacy laced attacks rather than paying attention to what you've now said TWICE.

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[One_and_Done]

Comparing SGA to Kobe? If you were a GM, who would you pick objectively if you needed a scorer? Franchise player? Come on lol

SGA by far.

[Pelly24]

SGA is about to average 30+ for the third straight season. Kobe scored 30+ just 3X in his entire 20 year career. SGA is also about to average 50% FG for the third straight year and fourth time in the last five seasons. Kobe never averaged 50% in any season in his career. SGA also shoots a higher % from the FT line and the arc. SGA just scored his career high of 45 points. Kobe could score 45 points in his sleep. He once scored 55 in one half and 62 in 3 quarters. As a volume scorer, Kobe crushes SGA but SGA seems to crush Kobe everywhere else. Is SGA a massively underrated scorer or was Kobe massively overrated as a scorer?

I think we just can't compare stats across eras for a few reasons. One, that 99 to 2005 period was possibly the hardest era to score in and the average TS% was like 52. Kobe was always like +3 or son on TS%, so it was the equivalent of being at 61 TS% today. Shae is at like 63 today. But Kobe was also molded in the era of absolute chuckers, Back then, you gave your best player the ball and he shot like 25 times a game and bludgeoned defenses. Wasn't all this spaced out stuff.

There's an argument that Shai is better than Kobe, but I could see 2003-2010 Kobe averaging 33/6/6 on 62 TS% or something so it's not as big as the gap in stats say. Kobe was pretty much an unrivaled streak scorer. I don't see Shai getting 4 straight 50 point games or 62 points in a quarter. Kobe's stamina and creativity and ability to play with force were just at another level.

So I think they're both just insanely good, no one is overrated. Kobe was incredible and his own playing style i think dampened his advanced stats. But Kobe was him.

[Pelly24]

Kobe would put stupid numbers if he played in todays world with 5 out pace and space teammates.

I think this assumption doesn't really fit with Kobe's actual paying style. The type of star who thrives in a 5-out offense is a ball handling rim attacker/playmaker. Kobe, at his core combined strong movement shooting with a resilient post up game that he could extend out to the elbows. We're not talking about a high-volume driver. The cool thing about Kobe was that he excelled at scoring in cramped spaces. He could destroy his matchup, or slice defenses apart off-the ball and pop into short range jumpers.

He famously emulated MJ, but the reality of that was he emulated MJ's counters, rather than his primary driving action. As a driver, Kobe was very good, but never elite at an all-time level. Super young Kobe attacked the rim with a lot of springs, but statistically that doesn't hold up past age 21. In his prime, Kobe became deadly in the short midrange, but by that time, his rim numbers were very pedestrian.

Kobe putting up stupid numbers in a modern context, would require him expanding his range. He's not Luka, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, there's just no evidence he can destroy you with rim buckets if you just give him space. To me, Kobe game is more like if you combine Demar's midrange game with a 2-point getting version of Steph or Reggie.

I feel people say this kind of stuff about Kobe and Iverson a lot, but in truth, those kinds of players were the guys benefitting from their era by being the toughest shot makers of long 2s. The ability to get that shot against the monster paint defenses of the early 2000s was a huge part of their value. I don't see intuitively how that translates to the modern game without radically re-imagining their play style and inventing a very hypothetical player.

I think you might be underselling Kobe's rim ability a little bit. He finished 69% of his shots at the rim in 2013, which was right before he got injured. It was also like the end of his athletic prime. He finished at a 66% rate in 2008-2009 on about 4.5 rim attempts per game. Had 73 dunks combined in playoffs and regular season. Kobe was a monster athlete, and these are past his absolute peak athletic years. 1999-2007 Kobe ... who knows. I think he would be better than Harden at the rim. He had a great first step but was much more bouncy and even longer with possibly the GOAT body control. He took 10 free throws a game at his peak. You'd have to think that number would go up a bit. I don't think it's a stretch to think he took better shots from three and shot 36% on decent volume.