What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA

[bledredwine]

You need to watch the 87’ allstar game. Makes bball now look like a joke. Hilarious that some posters ignore rule changes and the outcomes when the commissioner himself stated they wanted more accessible scoring.

Have you watched the video from OP?

It's 23 minutes, so nope.

[Fencer reregistered]

The game is extremely fast... compared to prior eras

This is patently false.

Average team game pace this current 2024-25 season is 99.8 poss/48min. In 1977-78 it was 107.7 poss/48min, in 1978-79 it was 106.8 poss/48min.

As a matter of fact, average team game pace has not been as high as even 101.0 poss/48min in any season since 1988-89. From 1979-80 to 1988-89 it ranged from 101.0 to 104.2 poss/48min.

I'm not talking about the number of possessions per game I'm talking about the number of things that happen in a possession. Off ball players are constantly moving, ball handlers are hunting mismatches, defenders are switching, doubling, shading, there are more passes than ever, the entire game is quicker. Just watch the video, the 90s finals game looks like a bad D2 college game today.

Exception: Fast breaks were more sophisticated. Without reviewing film, I'd say that's because they had to be, because transition defense was more intense, which in turn was usually because of the tighter (lack of) spacing. ...

[Big J]

This is patently false.

Average team game pace this current 2024-25 season is 99.8 poss/48min. In 1977-78 it was 107.7 poss/48min, in 1978-79 it was 106.8 poss/48min.

As a matter of fact, average team game pace has not been as high as even 101.0 poss/48min in any season since 1988-89. From 1979-80 to 1988-89 it ranged from 101.0 to 104.2 poss/48min.

I'm not talking about the number of possessions per game I'm talking about the number of things that happen in a possession. Off ball players are constantly moving, ball handlers are hunting mismatches, defenders are switching, doubling, shading, there are more passes than ever, the entire game is quicker. Just watch the video, the 90s finals game looks like a bad D2 college game today.

Exception: Fast breaks were more sophisticated. Without reviewing film, I'd say that's because they had to be, because transition defense was more intense, which in turn was usually because of the tighter (lack of) spacing. ...

Post games were much more sophisticated as well.

[70sFan]

You need to watch the 87’ allstar game. Makes bball now look like a joke. Hilarious that some posters ignore rule changes and the outcomes when the commissioner himself stated they wanted more accessible scoring.

Have you watched the video from OP?

It's 23 minutes, so nope.

Are you serious?

[bledredwine]

Have you watched the video from OP?

It's 23 minutes, so nope.

Are you serious?

Yep! I watched four minutes and it was already full of crap. Videos like this isolate rarer events and act like they happened all the time in the game. He also asserted that posting was boring when you heard no complaints about it
Everyone is complaining about the game right now because the whole damned thing is boring. You guys can find as many niche videos as you want but the people at large know how boring and stripped of defense it is when they see it. He is right about one thing- superstars weren’t playing point as often since the court wasn’t open.

Just like I watch seek high quality news, I also need accurate, unexaggerated videos that display truth instead of agenda. I’d hope that you can understand that.

One thing is for certain- the game is stripped of defense to the point that even current players and coaches who coached in two eras say that “there’s no defense”or they’ve “made it impossible to defend” (lebron pop draymond for starters)

Then you have players who literally existed during the rule changes or had experiences with different rules talking about how the changes made the game so easy for them (Nash credits his success to the rule changes and Luka states how easy three sec makes the game for him to get to the rack).

Scoring is more accessible, just as the commissioner stated with the rule changes and this is the garbage you get. That’s why old players are complaining.

Anyway, we’ve been through this over and over and still, most of the current fans choose to ignore this and remain ignorant of the obvious. So why should I take threads like this seriously?

[NbaAllDay]

Have you watched the video from OP?

It's 23 minutes, so nope.

Are you serious?

How are you surprised at this point

[NbaAllDay]

I'm not talking about the number of possessions per game I'm talking about the number of things that happen in a possession. Off ball players are constantly moving, ball handlers are hunting mismatches, defenders are switching, doubling, shading, there are more passes than ever, the entire game is quicker. Just watch the video, the 90s finals game looks like a bad D2 college game today.

Exception: Fast breaks were more sophisticated. Without reviewing film, I'd say that's because they had to be, because transition defense was more intense, which in turn was usually because of the tighter (lack of) spacing. ...

Post games were much more sophisticated as well.

What's the evidence for this?

[Jables]

Flawed premise, former players are just saying what fans are thinking. Every other talking head on ESPN or whatever knows not to **** where they eat.

Falling ratings, the main thing that's drawn interest in years has been a stupid trade.

[Jables]

Exception: Fast breaks were more sophisticated. Without reviewing film, I'd say that's because they had to be, because transition defense was more intense, which in turn was usually because of the tighter (lack of) spacing. ...

Post games were much more sophisticated as well.

What's the evidence for this?

I'll be honest dude, you should maybe think about why this was a silly request. If you really don't know just watch an old game, post play and positioning used to be more critical on both sides of the ball.

[bledredwine]

Post games were much more sophisticated as well.

What's the evidence for this?

I'll be honest dude, you should maybe think about why this was a silly request. If you really don't know just watch an old game, post play and positioning used to be more critical on both sides of the ball.

Agreed. This is the issue here. You can tell by how they post that almost no one here actually accurately remembers the 90s vividly or has watched a 90s game recently.

I do frequently. They actually have no idea about the game, so videos like this teach them everything they know, like following a poor German news source and acting like you experienced and understand everything about world war two.

Instead of having just face to the basket layups, having footwork and back to the basket play in addition is more interesting. Instead of threes, layups and jump shots, having a balance of those with post game and more interior passing and defense as well if more interesting. Imagine that.

[70sFan]

Yep! I watched four minutes and it was already full of crap. Videos like this isolate rarer events and act like they happened all the time in the game.

Ben specifically showed the first few halfcourt possessions in the certain games, it's not "isolating rarer events". You can't deny that offensive plays are more complex now than ever before on average.

He also asserted that posting was boring when you heard no complaints about it

That's because people remember great post players doing their work. They don't remember how old Bill Cartwright posted up on Bulls offense and that the results were not pretty.

Don't get me wrong, I love good post game but not every post up is exciting - just like some players make three point shooting exciting, but not all of them.

Everyone is complaining about the game right now because the whole damned thing is boring.

I disagree and I watch more old basketball than anyone here - so what do you do now?

You guys can find as many niche videos as you want but the people at large know how boring and stripped of defense it is when they see it. He is right about one thing- superstars weren’t playing point as often since the court wasn’t open.

How can you watch even the first 4 minutes and keep talking that defense doesn't exist? How can you be so intelectually dishonest?

Just like I watch seek high quality news, I also need accurate, unexaggerated videos that display truth instead of agenda. I’d hope that you can understand that.

No worries, I can create unedited video comparing each possessions from 2025 game and any 1990s game you want.

One thing is for certain- the game is stripped of defense to the point that even current players and coaches who coached in two eras say that “there’s no defense”or they’ve “made it impossible to defend” (lebron pop draymond for starters)

Do you know why it's so hard to defend? Because teams are way more skilled at exploiting openings than ever before. You are forced to guard majority of players around the 3P line these days and it's extremely tasking. Players move without the ball way more, they use way more sophisticated playbooks etc.

There are reasons unrelated to that as well - like rules changing, but if you use 1990s rules the league wouldn't suddenly stop using threes.

Then you have players who literally existed during the rule changes or had experiences with different rules talking about how the changes made the game so easy for them (Nash credits his success to the rule changes and Luka states how easy three sec makes the game for him to get to the rack).

We're in 2025, 2005 is like two eras apart from now...

Anyway, we’ve been through this over and over and still, most of the current fans choose to ignore this and remain ignorant of the obvious. So why should I take threads like this seriously?

Because Ben, who watches more basketball than you anyone of you, actually provides arguments backed up with evidences on the tape. You can't provide any contargument, so you just ignore his arguments. Ben isn't "current fan" he started watching basketball in Larry Bird's era.

Again, it's blatantly false that only young generation ignore everything, we have plenty of people old enough to watch old games AND people still watching a lot of historical stuff that agree with Ben here. It looks like ignorance isn't our problem.

[sashaturiaf]

Change is the only constant in the universe, but humans aren't biologically adapted to accept change at the rate to keep up with modern technological advances thus explaining the maniacs we got on the general board and on the PC board.

Over the broad course of history people in 2070 will look back on Jordan, Bryant, James and Wemby as belonging to largely the same approximate era which makes the current era bickering look ridiculous.

In the long run I think all the nuances behind each season gets lost and stats and ring counts are all that matters, so yes Lebron absolutely knows what he's doing.

[bledredwine]

Yep! I watched four minutes and it was already full of crap. Videos like this isolate rarer events and act like they happened all the time in the game.

Ben specifically showed the first few halfcourt possessions in the certain games, it's not "isolating rarer events". You can't deny that offensive plays are more complex now than ever before on average.

He also asserted that posting was boring when you heard no complaints about it

That's because people remember great post players doing their work. They don't remember how old Bill Cartwright posted up on Bulls offense and that the results were not pretty.

Don't get me wrong, I love good post game but not every post up is exciting - just like some players make three point shooting exciting, but not all of them.

Everyone is complaining about the game right now because the whole damned thing is boring.

I disagree and I watch more old basketball than anyone here - so what do you do now?

You guys can find as many niche videos as you want but the people at large know how boring and stripped of defense it is when they see it. He is right about one thing- superstars weren’t playing point as often since the court wasn’t open.

How can you watch even the first 4 minutes and keep talking that defense doesn't exist? How can you be so intelectually dishonest?

Just like I watch seek high quality news, I also need accurate, unexaggerated videos that display truth instead of agenda. I’d hope that you can understand that.

No worries, I can create unedited video comparing each possessions from 2025 game and any 1990s game you want.

One thing is for certain- the game is stripped of defense to the point that even current players and coaches who coached in two eras say that “there’s no defense”or they’ve “made it impossible to defend” (lebron pop draymond for starters)

Do you know why it's so hard to defend? Because teams are way more skilled at exploiting openings than ever before. You are forced to guard majority of players around the 3P line these days and it's extremely tasking. Players move without the ball way more, they use way more sophisticated playbooks etc.

There are reasons unrelated to that as well - like rules changing, but if you use 1990s rules the league wouldn't suddenly stop using threes.

Then you have players who literally existed during the rule changes or had experiences with different rules talking about how the changes made the game so easy for them (Nash credits his success to the rule changes and Luka states how easy three sec makes the game for him to get to the rack).

We're in 2025, 2005 is like two eras apart from now...

Anyway, we’ve been through this over and over and still, most of the current fans choose to ignore this and remain ignorant of the obvious. So why should I take threads like this seriously?

Because Ben, who watches more basketball than you anyone of you, actually provides arguments backed up with evidences on the tape. You can't provide any contargument, so you just ignore his arguments. Ben isn't "current fan" he started watching basketball in Larry Bird's era.

Again, it's blatantly false that only young generation ignore everything, we have plenty of people old enough to watch old games AND people still watching a lot of historical stuff that agree with Ben here. It looks like ignorance isn't our problem.

I watch games, not just highlights. I’m not choosing what I remember. This video is heavily exagggerated, but that’s what it takes when the majority of people see how stripped down and boring the current state of the game is. At the least, I would hope you could admit that there’s a disproportionate overabundance of threes right now and that’s not what people want to see.

[70sFan]

Yep! I watched four minutes and it was already full of crap. Videos like this isolate rarer events and act like they happened all the time in the game.

Ben specifically showed the first few halfcourt possessions in the certain games, it's not "isolating rarer events". You can't deny that offensive plays are more complex now than ever before on average.

He also asserted that posting was boring when you heard no complaints about it

That's because people remember great post players doing their work. They don't remember how old Bill Cartwright posted up on Bulls offense and that the results were not pretty.

Don't get me wrong, I love good post game but not every post up is exciting - just like some players make three point shooting exciting, but not all of them.

Everyone is complaining about the game right now because the whole damned thing is boring.

I disagree and I watch more old basketball than anyone here - so what do you do now?

You guys can find as many niche videos as you want but the people at large know how boring and stripped of defense it is when they see it. He is right about one thing- superstars weren’t playing point as often since the court wasn’t open.

How can you watch even the first 4 minutes and keep talking that defense doesn't exist? How can you be so intelectually dishonest?

Just like I watch seek high quality news, I also need accurate, unexaggerated videos that display truth instead of agenda. I’d hope that you can understand that.

No worries, I can create unedited video comparing each possessions from 2025 game and any 1990s game you want.

One thing is for certain- the game is stripped of defense to the point that even current players and coaches who coached in two eras say that “there’s no defense”or they’ve “made it impossible to defend” (lebron pop draymond for starters)

Do you know why it's so hard to defend? Because teams are way more skilled at exploiting openings than ever before. You are forced to guard majority of players around the 3P line these days and it's extremely tasking. Players move without the ball way more, they use way more sophisticated playbooks etc.

There are reasons unrelated to that as well - like rules changing, but if you use 1990s rules the league wouldn't suddenly stop using threes.

Then you have players who literally existed during the rule changes or had experiences with different rules talking about how the changes made the game so easy for them (Nash credits his success to the rule changes and Luka states how easy three sec makes the game for him to get to the rack).

We're in 2025, 2005 is like two eras apart from now...

Anyway, we’ve been through this over and over and still, most of the current fans choose to ignore this and remain ignorant of the obvious. So why should I take threads like this seriously?

Because Ben, who watches more basketball than you anyone of you, actually provides arguments backed up with evidences on the tape. You can't provide any contargument, so you just ignore his arguments. Ben isn't "current fan" he started watching basketball in Larry Bird's era.

Again, it's blatantly false that only young generation ignore everything, we have plenty of people old enough to watch old games AND people still watching a lot of historical stuff that agree with Ben here. It looks like ignorance isn't our problem.

I watch games, not highlights. I’m not choosing what I remember. This video is heavily exagggerated, but that’s what it takes when the majority of people see how stripped down and boring the current state of the game is. At the least, I would hope you could admit that there’s a disproportionate overabundance of threes right now and that’s not what people want to see.

Choose one game from the 1990s and I will compare it to one from 2025, without any editing. If we both search for truth, we can find it. Remember, I don't have any bias for modern game.

[bledredwine]

Ben specifically showed the first few halfcourt possessions in the certain games, it's not "isolating rarer events". You can't deny that offensive plays are more complex now than ever before on average.


That's because people remember great post players doing their work. They don't remember how old Bill Cartwright posted up on Bulls offense and that the results were not pretty.

Don't get me wrong, I love good post game but not every post up is exciting - just like some players make three point shooting exciting, but not all of them.



I disagree and I watch more old basketball than anyone here - so what do you do now?


How can you watch even the first 4 minutes and keep talking that defense doesn't exist? How can you be so intelectually dishonest?


No worries, I can create unedited video comparing each possessions from 2025 game and any 1990s game you want.


Do you know why it's so hard to defend? Because teams are way more skilled at exploiting openings than ever before. You are forced to guard majority of players around the 3P line these days and it's extremely tasking. Players move without the ball way more, they use way more sophisticated playbooks etc.

There are reasons unrelated to that as well - like rules changing, but if you use 1990s rules the league wouldn't suddenly stop using threes.


We're in 2025, 2005 is like two eras apart from now...


Because Ben, who watches more basketball than you anyone of you, actually provides arguments backed up with evidences on the tape. You can't provide any contargument, so you just ignore his arguments. Ben isn't "current fan" he started watching basketball in Larry Bird's era.

Again, it's blatantly false that only young generation ignore everything, we have plenty of people old enough to watch old games AND people still watching a lot of historical stuff that agree with Ben here. It looks like ignorance isn't our problem.

I watch games, not highlights. I’m not choosing what I remember. This video is heavily exagggerated, but that’s what it takes when the majority of people see how stripped down and boring the current state of the game is. At the least, I would hope you could admit that there’s a disproportionate overabundance of threes right now and that’s not what people want to see.

Choose one game from the 1990s and I will compare it to one from 2025, without any editing. If we both search for truth, we can find it. Remember, I don't have any bias for modern game.

I don’t believe that for a moment.

Let’s include allstar games as well, to prove a point about the state of the NBA and direction it took as entertainment. Since OP seems so confident that allstar games were always bad too and you’re supposedly unbiased, this shouldn’t be a problem.

[70sFan]

I don’t believe that for a moment.

So you think everyone who disagrees with you is a biased fool? Convincing, I must admit...

Let’s include allstar games as well, to prove a point about the state of the NBA and direction it took as entertainment.

Why should I care about all-star games? AS games are joke from at least mid-80s.

[bledredwine]

I don’t believe that for a moment.

So you think everyone who disagrees with you is a biased fool? Convincing, I must admit...

Let’s include allstar games as well, to prove a point about the state of the NBA and direction it took as entertainment.

Why should I care about all-star games? AS games are joke from at least mid-80s.

Nope, but when someone can’t admit that something blatantly obvious and intended for one purpose such as rule changes exists and had an impact on the game, I can’t take their opinions without the knowledge that they’re significantly biased. And that makes sense. Thats strange if you’re unaware of your bias.

[NbaAllDay]

Post games were much more sophisticated as well.

What's the evidence for this?

I'll be honest dude, you should maybe think about why this was a silly request. If you really don't know just watch an old game, post play and positioning used to be more critical on both sides of the ball.

Asking for evidence is a silly request? I guess it's silly to those who never provide it.

Pretty good reason to ask for evidence on a big claim.

I've watched plenty of games from the 90s and it's actually on the contrary.

Today you see better footwork, much better passing from it, more abilities to spin both sides, better control, players who can shoot over both shoulders, overall better sets in and out of the post. The list goes on.

More post ups don't = more sophistication which is about all you could lean into.

[NbaAllDay]

I don’t believe that for a moment.

So you think everyone who disagrees with you is a biased fool? Convincing, I must admit...

Let’s include allstar games as well, to prove a point about the state of the NBA and direction it took as entertainment.

Why should I care about all-star games? AS games are joke from at least mid-80s.

Nope, but when someone can’t admit that something blatantly obvious and intended for one purpose such as rule changes exists and had an impact on the game, I can’t take their opinions without the knowledge that they’re significantly biased. And that makes sense. Thats strange if you’re unaware of your bias.

You continue to deflect because when asked to do some honest research you understand it will break down your arguement.

Take on the challenge or continue to parrot the same schtick with 0 substance.

[bledredwine]

What's the evidence for this?

I'll be honest dude, you should maybe think about why this was a silly request. If you really don't know just watch an old game, post play and positioning used to be more critical on both sides of the ball.

Asking for evidence is a silly request? I guess it's silly to those who never provide it.

Pretty good reason to ask for evidence on a big claim.

I've watched plenty of games from the 90s and it's actually on the contrary.

Today you see better footwork, much better passing from it, more abilities to spin both sides, better control, players who can shoot over both shoulders, overall better sets in and out of the post. The list goes on.

More post ups don't = more sophistication which is about all you could lean into.

Sure, Lebron and Jokic have better footwork than Jordan and Hakeem, the passing has nothing to do with the court being wide open spamming threes and lack of physicality that defenders are allowed, and post games are boring.

I watch full games and say exactly the opposite of you.

No one is posting evidence from either side because that would be extremely time consuming and you’d all still deny it anyway. You can go ahead and do the “research” on what’s blatantly obvious.