Kobe NOT Top 10 Argument

[dhsilv2]

No they don't. Show me any top 100 list with him in the top 10 from the last 5 years.

1) David Aldridge & John Hollinger's Book and the Ringer have him 10th
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1h2w0n5/david_aldridge_john_hollingers_new_book_the/

2) Ranker.com top 280 have him 5th
https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

3) ChatGPT have him 8th

4) The100greatest.com have him 7th
https://www.the100greatest.com/2021/01/26/the-100-greatest-basketball-players-of-all-time/

5) Logan's Sports Ratings have him 9th
https://loganssportsratings.blogspot.com/2021/07/top-100-nba-players-of-all-time-intro.html

6) Ainsworthsports.com have him 10th
https://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm

These aren't top 100 but 75+
1) Sportingnews.com have him 8th
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-greatest-player-rankings-1-10/1krt9rauze7s21xes8fi657ifo

2) Hoopshype.com have him 8th
https://hoopshype.com/lists/78-greatest-nba-players-ever-hoopshype-list/

These definitely aren't all of the best sources, but it's what was available flipping through some google searches in my spare time. That fact that he appears in the majority of these lists in the top10, does debunk your statement. In the others that he didn't, he just narrowly missed out being anywhere from 11th to 15th. It really just depends on which era the voter grew up in.

A few of these are pretty good sources. A few are a bit laughable...ranker for example. But yeah, fair enough. I'll give you that it does look like a few have moved Kobe up in the last few years.

[bkkrh]

Well, Clyde Drexler was kind of the poor man's Jordan during the 80s and early 90s. But since he is a year older and was drafted a year earlier, does that mean MJ is actually a copycat of Drexler and can't be a top 10 player either? What makes Shaq original compared to WIlt?

[Profound23]

Well, Clyde Drexler was kind of the poor man's Jordan during the 80s and early 90s. But since he is a year older and was drafted a year earlier, does that mean MJ is actually a copycat of Drexler and can't be a top 10 player either? What makes Shaq original compared to WIlt?

MJ said himself he modeled his game after Dr. J.

For anyone to use the fact that Kobe is a copycat MJ against him would mean Dr. J should be in the top 10 and not MJ either. I don't think that argument makes sense.

[pipfan]

I have it this way
GOAT-LBJ/MJ (KAJ was bumped out by LBJ's longevity)
Next group-KAJ/Duncan/Russell/Wilt/Shaq/Maybe Magic
Next group-Hakeem/Bird/Kobe/Curry (maybe Magic in this group)

I have Curry/Kobe outside the top 10, above Oscar/West/KG

Jokic and maybe Giannis coming for the top 10

[Himothy Duncan]

Well, Clyde Drexler was kind of the poor man's Jordan during the 80s and early 90s. But since he is a year older and was drafted a year earlier, does that mean MJ is actually a copycat of Drexler and can't be a top 10 player either? What makes Shaq original compared to WIlt?

They’re too close in age and played against each other, plus Jordan is much better. If you’re going to be a copy cat then be better. I don’t recall Shaq copying Wilt’s mannerisms? They’re just big dominant centers. My take home point about Kobe is that he’s a poor man’s version of another player in the top 10. Imagine having both Mario and Luigi in a top 10 all-time video game character list.

[bubonicphoniks]

Kob's top 10. Let's not get it twisted. Haters gonna hate.

[tsherkin]

I don't think Kobe being a discount version of Jordan is what keeps him out of the top 10. I think his individual play and resume are what do that. He was an incredible player, but after 75 years of basketball, the competition at the absolute apex is pretty stiff. Missing out by 5 or 10 spots isn't some condemnation of a player.

[Iwasawitness]

Of course he's top 10. That is a non discussion

-Formed 2 different contending dynasties with vastly different teams and in different eras
-Consistency in excellence. All star and all NBA level player for near 15 years. Didn't miss games, didn't load manage, didn't give excuses
-Turned Shaq, a ADHD lazy man child who was saving his excrement to dump on teammates rather than working on his free throws into a winner with a 3 peat, the last 3 peat in the NBA
-Turned Pau Gasol who had never won a playoff game before he joined the Lakers into a 2 time champ and 3 time finals contestant
-This is down to personal preference but the aesthetics of his game and the strength of his character means he left an absolutely legendary impact on the game and it's culture


If you don't have Kobe top 5, you're a bitter stats nerd not a ball fan. If you don't have Kobe top 10, we ain't talking basketball on the same level.

Kobe top five

[JimmyFromNz]

It's entirely plausible to have Kobe ranked 8-15th.

If someone struggles with that, they should probably give more credence to (or just learn about) the others on the list.

It's also a shame the arguments for and against are typically the loudest from people on each extreme of the spectrum.

The conversation about aggregated online lists is flawed, it's not about volume of opinion (of course volume wins out for the most 'popular' players) it's about the quality of insight. Turn to the likes Aldridge/Hollinger, Ben Taylor, Bill Simmons even a handful of posters here that spend the majority of their time evaluating careers based on evidence that results in projects far more detailed and considered than a random sports blog.

[tsherkin]

It's entirely plausible to have Kobe ranked 8-15th.

Specific criteria and context certainly matter a lot to where one ranks a player like Kobe, for sure.

[Moonbeam]

I can see him as high as number 8 or as low as number 20 on a reasonable list. It’s kind of hard to make a strong case for him in the top 10, but it’s not outrageous or anything. I think I had him at #13 the last time I made a list. Placing him higher than 8 seems like quite the stretch for me, though.

[SNPA]

I agree with OP around being an original impacting rankings. It should.

But an even easier measure is to be top ten a player one must have been the clear cut best player on the planet for serveral years straight. The traditional top ten all meet that standard.

Jordan/Bird/Russell/James/Hakeem/Shaq/Wilt/Magic/KAJ/Duncan

This is the baseline. If a player doesn’t meet it, how can he be top ten?

[junot111]

I agree with OP around being an original impacting rankings. It should.

But an even easier measure is to be top ten a player one must have been the clear cut best player on the planet for serveral years straight. The traditional top ten all meet that standard.

Jordan/Bird/Russell/James/Hakeem/Shaq/Wilt/Magic/KAJ/Duncan

This is the baseline. If a player doesn’t meet it, how can he be top ten?

How can Magic and Bird both qualify based on this criteria?

[SeattleJazzFan]

the best argument for kobe not top 10 is that there are 10 guys (more than 10, but whatever) better than him.

[SNPA]

I agree with OP around being an original impacting rankings. It should.

But an even easier measure is to be top ten a player one must have been the clear cut best player on the planet for serveral years straight. The traditional top ten all meet that standard.

Jordan/Bird/Russell/James/Hakeem/Shaq/Wilt/Magic/KAJ/Duncan

This is the baseline. If a player doesn’t meet it, how can he be top ten?

How can Magic and Bird both qualify based on this criteria?

The pairs don’t fully overlap at peak. Bird is early 80s, Magic is later 80s. Russell before Wilt and Shaq before Duncan.

[Raps in 4]

Guys that you can slot into the top-10:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Dirk
Wade
Steph
Jokic
Giannis

Can you say that 10 of those guys had better careers than Kobe? Sure. Personally, a guy winning one or two titles without much help (e.g., Hakeem, Dirk, Jokic) is more impressive to me than a guy winning 5x titles playing with another MVP his whole career (e.g., Magic). Kobe sleepwalked to 3x of his titles by playing with Shaq. '09 and '10 were reasonably impressive though (less impressive was how the league gifted Gasol to the Lakers).

[SeattleJazzFan]

i'd put him at 6th even it were just ACTIVE players. lebron, giannis, jokic, durant, steph, kobe. that's just currently active guys. there are easily five more dudes from 1960 to 20010 that are better.

*Luka will almost assuredly pass him too among active players if he stays healthy, but he's still just 25 so we'll give Kobe a pass there.

[tsherkin]

than a guy winning 5x titles playing with another MVP his whole career (e.g., Magic).

Yeah but you need context here. You're dismissing several of Magic's titles because Kareem's name was on the roster, even when he wasn't even close to an MVP. And then even that ignores that he made the Finals without Kareem. Or that they won their last title with KAJ averaging about 15/6 in 29 mpg in the RS, and about 14/5.5 in 30 mpg in the playoffs.

Context is always king.

[Bush4Ever]

I think a reasonable ranking for Kobe would tend to fall right at or just outside the top 10. I personally have him around 12th, being a little bit lower on his prime and overall career defensive value than the average fan. But it's close.

I have no idea what being a copycat has to do with anything though.

A player who was a 99 percent copy of Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, etc...would be inside the top 10 with room to spare.

[bkkrh]

Well, Clyde Drexler was kind of the poor man's Jordan during the 80s and early 90s. But since he is a year older and was drafted a year earlier, does that mean MJ is actually a copycat of Drexler and can't be a top 10 player either? What makes Shaq original compared to WIlt?

They’re too close in age and played against each other, plus Jordan is much better. If you’re going to be a copy cat then be better. I don’t recall Shaq copying Wilt’s mannerisms? They’re just big dominant centers. My take home point about Kobe is that he’s a poor man’s version of another player in the top 10. Imagine having both Mario and Luigi in a top 10 all-time video game character list.

Yeah, well but in what sense are they that similar? That they were both athletic 2 way guards that are known for clutch moments? I think most people agree that MJ was the more athletic player, from a peak in athleticism perspective and from a longevitity perspective as well. At least as far as I remember I'd say Kobe started to rely less on athleticism at an earlier age, probably also related to him entering the league at an younger age. At the same time it's also no debate that Kobe took way more 3 point shots.

I think the flaw in your logic is that you don't factor in what player type MJ and Kobe are. Like there is only one player like Magic Johnson, since he had a totally unique skillset for a player his size. There is only one Kareem because of his skyhook. And that is one type of All Time Great player. They are unique and in that sense almost impossible to copy,

On the other side you have somebody like MJ, who is the embodyment of a perfect 70s-90s Shooting Guard and franchise player. But there is in that sense nothing unique about him, he simply is in a lot of categories either the best, or at least on an elite level. Scoring, defense, athleticism, size of his hands, mentality and so on. And Kobe is in that sense the 2000s version of that player type. In that sense you can actually argue that Dwade was even more similar to Jordan than actually Kobe.

IYour argument is like saying Chris Paul is a copycat of John Stockton, since both of them are kind of the archetypes of the classical playmaking point guard.