What does Jokic have to do to be considered GOAT of all time?

[Johnny Tomala]

At this stage of his career and on the team he's got, I don't think the chance is really there. Most people heavily invest in team success when evaluating the upper crust of NBA elite, and he just doesn't have enough... barring a Kareem-like pairing with his version of Magic which adds a whole crapload of titles later on, maybe. Coupled to some serious longevity. He's garnering recognition for his play, especially his offense, but there will be hordes of people who won't rate him above guys who had those superior team contexts, right?

But yeah, you have to look at guys like Lebron (crazy stats, crazy longevity, tons of Finals appearances and 4 rings, loads of MVPs, two-way play), Kareem (6 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy longevity, two-way play), Jordan (5 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy narrative, dominant peak, two-way play), Bill Russell (5 MVPs, a thousand billion rings, greatest defensive dynasty in league history, player-coach w titles) and say "eeeeeh, passing those guys isn't super likely." And then you have to look at Duncan (2 MVPS, 5 titles, extended dominance over time, ATG defender), maybe a guy like Moses (1 ring, 3 MVPs, couple Finals trips, dominant offensive rebounding, excellent longevity). Hell, you could look a bit at Steph (2 MVPs, 4 titles as primary guy, at the forefront of changing perceptions of how the game works, couple scoring titles, hella efficient, etc).

As you get into the top-20 all-time and above, the resumes are INSANE, and the player quality is incredible. At some point, there's a requirement for things beyond the player's own actual ability to line up and present them the opportunity they need to stand next to the other guys. WE're talking about guys who changed the game and crushed it to win a ton in the top-10, right? And certainly as we push into GOAT and peri-GOAT territory, it's ridonkulous.

So I don't really see it unless Jokic rips off a 3-peat or something.

How the hell you didn't mention Wilt but mentioned Curry? Wilt is top 5 all-time, Curry is not in top 10.

[thamadkant]

Big men with high offensive awareness and IQ would thrive today with high assists games due to the amount of perimeter shooters.

I think bigs like Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, Ewing would all average 5 assists or more a game.

More mobile PFs like Webber, Garnett, Barkley, Malone would all average 7 assists a game.

My reasoning is that all the players above averaged 3 or more assists a game feeding shooters when they get doubled or when defense collapsed inside the arc.... as all the above players are smart enough to bait defenders. Imagine today, when 3pt attempts are triple the amount.

But Jokic ability make passes from half court and top of the arc puts him up there for Bird and other elite play making medium to big men.

[zimpy27]

Going to be hard without all-defensive team selections.


He could be the GOAT offensive player

[70sFan]

Jordan is clearly the Goat of Baskball.


Only 1 NBA player has EVER in the history of the NBA do this:
MVP
F-MVP
Scoring Leader
NBA-1st
DEF-1st

Jordan did it 4 times....and it easily is arguable it should have been 6 times.
(Sorry Barkley and Hakeem in 93 and Malone in 97....Mike should have won those 2 years as well)

These are all completely arbitrary criteria. Jordan's resume doesn't touch Bill Russell.

Surpasses in some, doesnt in others.

Bill won more titles, thays for certain but wasnt anywhere near michael offensively.

Michael was far closer to bill defensively than bill was to jordan offensively.

I have bill as the 2nd greatest nba player of all time.

Russell was far better defensively than Jordan offensively, that's what matters the most.

[Raonak]

Realistically; win 6 championships.

[1993Playoffs]

No, he’s not a two way player

[KyRo23]

Defense matters. Everyone wants to say GOAT peak, but have him play great defense and see if his offensive level is still attainable

I don’t think we give guys enough credit for being great on both sides of the ball. The sheer energy that takes is insane over long periods of time

[70sFan]

No, he’s not a two way player

Neither was Russell and he has the cleanest GOAT argument in the league history.

[TheGeneral99]

Well if he wins another 4-5 MVP's and another 3-4 championships then I think he has a legit argument for GOAT.

The problem is people live in the now and will assume the best for said player. It's like when the Nuggets won a championship and you had people legit saying they would be the next dynasty. It doesn't always work in your favor.

Look Jokic is great, but GOAT at this stage of his career is not even a conversation. He has to win some more championships to get that conversation really going.

He doesn't need another 4-5 MVPs and 3-4 championships.

Another 1-2 MVPs and another 1-2 championships, combined with longevity and building up his all-time stats will put him the conversation.

Lebron has 4 MVPs and 4 championships and is considered arguably the GOAT or #2...so if Jokic finishes with 4-5 MVPs and 2-3 championships, that would put him right in the conversation.

If Jokic plays until his late 30s he likely finishes top 10 in points and top 5 in assists and rebounds, which is something no other player has done.

You Jokic fanboys are hilarious. Well when he accomplishes all of that then we can have the discussion. Right now he's not in the discussion.

Nobody here is saying he's in the GOAT discussion. He's likely a top 15 player of all-time right and still has a lot to achieve if he even wants to enter the top 5. The thread is what does he need to accomplish to get in the GOAT conversation.

He just turned 30 and has 3 MVPs, a FMVP and championship, and may win MVP again this year, which is pretty incredible. Lebron at the same age had 2 championships, 4 MVPs, and two FMVPs. Jokic isn't that far behind at the same juncture.

So considering the fact he likely has another 7-10 seasons left, he could keep building that resume.

Not sure what is so controversial about this or the point of your response.

[JustBuzzin]

He doesn't need another 4-5 MVPs and 3-4 championships.

Another 1-2 MVPs and another 1-2 championships, combined with longevity and building up his all-time stats will put him the conversation.

Lebron has 4 MVPs and 4 championships and is considered arguably the GOAT or #2...so if Jokic finishes with 4-5 MVPs and 2-3 championships, that would put him right in the conversation.

If Jokic plays until his late 30s he likely finishes top 10 in points and top 5 in assists and rebounds, which is something no other player has done.

You Jokic fanboys are hilarious. Well when he accomplishes all of that then we can have the discussion. Right now he's not in the discussion.

Nobody here is saying he's in the GOAT discussion. He's likely a top 15 player of all-time right and still has a lot to achieve if he even wants to enter the top 5.

He just turned 30 and has 3 MVPs, a FMVP and championship, and may win MVP again this year, which is pretty incredible. Lebron at the same age had 2 championships, 4 MVPs, and two FMVPs. Jokic isn't that far behind at the same juncture.

So considering the fact he likely has another 7-10 seasons left, he could keep building that resume.

Not sure what is so controversial about this.

I'm trying to understand where I questioned your opinion. I said if he accomplishes those things you said we can have that conversation.

All I said is he's not in the conversation right now which you just admitted yourself lol.

All you had to say was I agree with you.

[TheGeneral99]

You Jokic fanboys are hilarious. Well when he accomplishes all of that then we can have the discussion. Right now he's not in the discussion.

Nobody here is saying he's in the GOAT discussion. He's likely a top 15 player of all-time right and still has a lot to achieve if he even wants to enter the top 5.

He just turned 30 and has 3 MVPs, a FMVP and championship, and may win MVP again this year, which is pretty incredible. Lebron at the same age had 2 championships, 4 MVPs, and two FMVPs. Jokic isn't that far behind at the same juncture.

So considering the fact he likely has another 7-10 seasons left, he could keep building that resume.

Not sure what is so controversial about this.

I'm trying to understand where I questioned your opinion. I said if he accomplishes those things you said we can have that conversation.

All I said is he's not in the conversation right now which you just admitted yourself lol.

All you had to say was I agree with you.

The whole point of this thread is what does he need to do to get in that conversation, lol.

[Big J]

At this stage of his career and on the team he's got, I don't think the chance is really there. Most people heavily invest in team success when evaluating the upper crust of NBA elite, and he just doesn't have enough... barring a Kareem-like pairing with his version of Magic which adds a whole crapload of titles later on, maybe. Coupled to some serious longevity. He's garnering recognition for his play, especially his offense, but there will be hordes of people who won't rate him above guys who had those superior team contexts, right?

But yeah, you have to look at guys like Lebron (crazy stats, crazy longevity, tons of Finals appearances and 4 rings, loads of MVPs, two-way play), Kareem (6 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy longevity, two-way play), Jordan (5 MVPs, 6 titles, crazy narrative, dominant peak, two-way play), Bill Russell (5 MVPs, a thousand billion rings, greatest defensive dynasty in league history, player-coach w titles) and say "eeeeeh, passing those guys isn't super likely." And then you have to look at Duncan (2 MVPS, 5 titles, extended dominance over time, ATG defender), maybe a guy like Moses (1 ring, 3 MVPs, couple Finals trips, dominant offensive rebounding, excellent longevity). Hell, you could look a bit at Steph (2 MVPs, 4 titles as primary guy, at the forefront of changing perceptions of how the game works, couple scoring titles, hella efficient, etc).

As you get into the top-20 all-time and above, the resumes are INSANE, and the player quality is incredible. At some point, there's a requirement for things beyond the player's own actual ability to line up and present them the opportunity they need to stand next to the other guys. WE're talking about guys who changed the game and crushed it to win a ton in the top-10, right? And certainly as we push into GOAT and peri-GOAT territory, it's ridonkulous.

So I don't really see it unless Jokic rips off a 3-peat or something.

How the hell you didn't mention Wilt but mentioned Curry? Wilt is top 5 all-time, Curry is not in top 10.

Curry is in most peoples top 10 at this point.

[JustBuzzin]

Nobody here is saying he's in the GOAT discussion. He's likely a top 15 player of all-time right and still has a lot to achieve if he even wants to enter the top 5.

He just turned 30 and has 3 MVPs, a FMVP and championship, and may win MVP again this year, which is pretty incredible. Lebron at the same age had 2 championships, 4 MVPs, and two FMVPs. Jokic isn't that far behind at the same juncture.

So considering the fact he likely has another 7-10 seasons left, he could keep building that resume.

Not sure what is so controversial about this.

I'm trying to understand where I questioned your opinion. I said if he accomplishes those things you said we can have that conversation.

All I said is he's not in the conversation right now which you just admitted yourself lol.

All you had to say was I agree with you.

The whole point of this thread is what does he need to do to get in that conversation, lol.

I already told you what he needs to do. You disagreed then went on to question my reason lol.

Bro you trolling me right now?

[Beethoven]

Lebron/MJ >>>>>>>>>> jokic

[1993Playoffs]

No, he’s not a two way player

Neither was Russell and he has the cleanest GOAT argument in the league history.

I thought you were a Kareem goat guy? Russell is tough for me.

[druggas]

He can't.

[picko]

It feels like that ship has sailed. Becoming the GOAT is one part ability (which Jokic has in spades), but also a large part luck (which Jokic hasn't had much of).

It takes an incredible amount of luck to win 6 championships (or 5 or 4 or 3). A coin-flip was essentially the difference between Magic Johnson having a top 5 all-time career or being merely a top 20 guy. Jordan lucks into having a first class GM - who he would have fired instantly if he could've - and it's the difference between 6 championships or Jordan being a cautionary tale. Kobe's entire legacy rests on a draft night trade.

Denver has put good but never great teams around Jokic. They won one championship (beating the 8th, 4th, 7th and 8th seeds). Most of the time though it feels similar to LeBron's first Cleveland stint. A remarkable superstar drags his team as far as is reasonable possible, but falls short in a league where other teams have more star power or bat deeper.

Obviously luck in this league can change quickly, but the odds would be stacked against Jokic enjoying further championship success in Denver.

[70sFan]

No, he’s not a two way player

Neither was Russell and he has the cleanest GOAT argument in the league history.

I thought you were a Kareem goat guy? Russell is tough for me.

My way of doing all-time list (CORP-like career value) used to put Kareem at number one, but James surpassed him at this point.

Russell's case is more straightforward than any other player's though - he's the most dominant, most consistent, most successful, most impactful basketball player with basically perfect resume. I don't see any way to put Jordan higher than him, unless you want to be really harsh on his era (but then I don't see any reason to put Jordan over modern players as well).

[zero rings]

Defense matters. Everyone wants to say GOAT peak, but have him play great defense and see if his offensive level is still attainable

I don’t think we give guys enough credit for being great on both sides of the ball. The sheer energy that takes is insane over long periods of time

Total impact is what matters. If Player A gives my team +10 wins, all on offense, and Player B gives me +6 wins, with 3 on offense and 3 on defense, give me Player A.

Individual defense isn’t what’s holding Jokic back from being the GOAT. It’s the risk averse, mom-and-pop Denver front office that’s holding him back. They lucked into this guy 10 years ago and have done next to nothing to capitalize on it.

The biggest move they’ve made in 10 years is trade for Aaron Gordon. I like AG, but he’s a role player. Boston has made 3 more substantial moves in just the past 3 years.

If Jokic were drafted by a franchise like Boston or OKC, he would be firmly in the GOAT discussion right now.

[guynumber45]

0 chance at being the GOAT. If he can win another championship, I think he definitely has a strong shot at being in the top 10 all time conversations.