2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 4: Who is the MVP?)

[Big J]

Jokic was a team worst -24 tonight, but it’s all his teammates fault right?

In this particular game, Jokic was great (tough to measure game level performance but +5.1 EPM prior is great) and it was his teammates who let him down yeah

Then why was he -24? That is worse than every teammate except MPJ

[Big J]

Imagine the delusional level of haterdom to watch the Wolves game last night and believe Jokic was the worst player on the court.

Defensively, he was awful.

This is what people tend to say when Jokic’s box score stats are great, but people want to pretend that Jokic was secretly bad so they make an unfalsifiable statement that Jokic’s defense was bad to according to their “eye test”. That’s not to say that Jokic doesn’t have bad defensive games (the Nuggets 2nd game against the TWolves was quite bad), but that’s the general pattern I’ve seen

The box score wasn’t good for Jokic. He was a -24 when on the floor. 2nd worst on his team.

[Special_Puppy]

Defensively, he was awful.

This is what people tend to say when Jokic’s box score stats are great, but people want to pretend that Jokic was secretly bad so they make an unfalsifiable statement that Jokic’s defense was bad to according to their “eye test”. That’s not to say that Jokic doesn’t have bad defensive games (the Nuggets 2nd game against the TWolves was quite bad), but that’s the general pattern I’ve seen

The box score wasn’t good for Jokic. He was a -24 when on the floor. 2nd worst on his team.

I wouldn’t consider single game plus-minus data as part of the box score. And I don’t take single game plus-minus data that seriously. But everything I said still basically holds where people see the box score data that looks great for Jokic. Want to blame him for a loss anyways. And so make an unfalsifiable claim that Jokic’s defense was bad according to their “eye test”

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic was a team worst -24 tonight, but it’s all his teammates fault right?

In this particular game, Jokic was great (tough to measure game level performance but +5.1 EPM prior is great) and it was his teammates who let him down yeah

Then why was he -24? That is worse than every teammate except MPJ

I don’t know if you knew this, but single game plus-minus data isn’t very reliable

[Special_Puppy]

If SGA had this game this thread would be ablaze with the “Jokic is so clearly the best player in the world, yall are idiots” takes

If people were attacking SGA for playing great in a loss (like the December 1st game against Houston) then that would be dumb yeah

[Alatan]

Defensively, he was awful.

This is what people tend to say when Jokic’s box score stats are great, but people want to pretend that Jokic was secretly bad so they make an unfalsifiable statement that Jokic’s defense was bad to according to their “eye test”. That’s not to say that Jokic doesn’t have bad defensive games (the Nuggets 2nd game against the TWolves was quite bad), but that’s the general pattern I’ve seen

The box score wasn’t good for Jokic. He was a -24 when on the floor. 2nd worst on his team.

To help you understand how dumb what you just said is, imagine prime Michael Jordan playing against the Wolves with 9 random people from the audience. He could have the worst +- because he played the most minutes even if he dropped a 100 with lockdown individual defense.

[Big J]

This is what people tend to say when Jokic’s box score stats are great, but people want to pretend that Jokic was secretly bad so they make an unfalsifiable statement that Jokic’s defense was bad to according to their “eye test”. That’s not to say that Jokic doesn’t have bad defensive games (the Nuggets 2nd game against the TWolves was quite bad), but that’s the general pattern I’ve seen

The box score wasn’t good for Jokic. He was a -24 when on the floor. 2nd worst on his team.

To help you understand how dumb what you just said is, imagine prime Michael Jordan playing against the Wolves with 9 random people from the audience. He could have the worst +- because he played the most minutes even if he dropped a 100 with lockdown individual defense.

Would those random people from the audience be +6 in 5 minutes while MJ was on the bench? Because a couple of Nuggets were.

[Johnny Firpo]

The box score wasn’t good for Jokic. He was a -24 when on the floor. 2nd worst on his team.

To help you understand how dumb what you just said is, imagine prime Michael Jordan playing against the Wolves with 9 random people from the audience. He could have the worst +- because he played the most minutes even if he dropped a 100 with lockdown individual defense.

Would those random people from the audience be +6 in 5 minutes while MJ was on the bench? Because a couple of Nuggets were.

Dude, almost everyone knows that single game +- doesn't really tell you anything. You can argue until the cows come home, but it won't change the fact that it is just not a good argument. In any way.

[Alatan]

The box score wasn’t good for Jokic. He was a -24 when on the floor. 2nd worst on his team.

To help you understand how dumb what you just said is, imagine prime Michael Jordan playing against the Wolves with 9 random people from the audience. He could have the worst +- because he played the most minutes even if he dropped a 100 with lockdown individual defense.

Would those random people from the audience be +6 in 5 minutes while MJ was on the bench? Because a couple of Nuggets were.

They could be if one they hit a few shots in garbage time when no one is really playing.

[Big J]

To help you understand how dumb what you just said is, imagine prime Michael Jordan playing against the Wolves with 9 random people from the audience. He could have the worst +- because he played the most minutes even if he dropped a 100 with lockdown individual defense.

Would those random people from the audience be +6 in 5 minutes while MJ was on the bench? Because a couple of Nuggets were.

They could be if one they hit a few shots in garbage time when no one is really playing.

Against actual NBA players?

[Alatan]

Would those random people from the audience be +6 in 5 minutes while MJ was on the bench? Because a couple of Nuggets were.

They could be if one they hit a few shots in garbage time when no one is really playing.

Against actual NBA players?

Sure. If the Wolves are up by 30 and they just wait for the game to end. You act surprised like this is a genuine situation. Is an exaggerated scenario to point out the method.
Like you never watched teams roll out garbage time squads that start chucking against each other like its the start of another game.

[Big J]

They could be if one they hit a few shots in garbage time when no one is really playing.

Against actual NBA players?

Sure. If the Wolves are up by 30 and they just wait for the game to end. You act surprised like this is a genuine situation. Is an exaggerated scenario to point out the method.
Like you never watched teams roll out garbage time squads that start chucking against each other like its the start of another game.

Yea, no group of 5 random ass beer drinking 45 year old men and women? are going to end up +6 against NBA players. I don''t give a damn if its garbage time or not.

[Infinite Llamas]

Well it took about 3 pages for this thread to devolve and become a steaming pile of toxicity.

Bravo.

[Castle Black]

Read on Twitter

[MrPainfulTruth]

Jokic was a team worst -24 tonight, but it’s all his teammates fault right?

Imagine the delusional level of haterdom to watch the Wolves game last night and believe Jokic was the worst player on the court.

He is doing little else these days than hate on Jokic. As someone who is very outspoken about some other guy i still have to say i dont get how you can get so triggered by Joker. He is the most undramatic guy i've ever seen and he doesnt care for you or the big spotlights.

[MrPainfulTruth]

The wolves game is not relevant in the MVP debate. With a no show of Murray (who stood passively on both ends of the floor) and MPJ no reasonable person could blame Jokic who gave everything. If anything, it confirmed how very little help Jokic has compared to SGA. How many guys on the Thunder are reliable 3 pt shooters? How many guys do you see who do not care to play defense at all, like Murray when he stays on the floor on the offensive end whining to the refs while his team is being steam rolled on D? Not a single OKC player is as weak a defender as Murray or MPJ.

[Big J]

Jokic was a team worst -24 tonight, but it’s all his teammates fault right?

Imagine the delusional level of haterdom to watch the Wolves game last night and believe Jokic was the worst player on the court.

He is doing little else these days than hate on Jokic. As someone who is very outspoken about some other guy i still have to say i dont get how you can get so triggered by Joker. He is the most undramatic guy i've ever seen and he doesnt care for you or the big spotlights.

I actually am a fan of Jokic. He's a great offensive player, and he's very humble and quiet, and he doesn't care about personal accomplishments. I have an issue with Jokic fanboys because they are loud and obnoxious and act like he has no faults, and can do nothing wrong. Any critique that is made of him they take as a personal attack. My advise to them is to take a cue from their idol and be a little more quiet and humble.

[Infinite Llamas]

Imagine the delusional level of haterdom to watch the Wolves game last night and believe Jokic was the worst player on the court.

He is doing little else these days than hate on Jokic. As someone who is very outspoken about some other guy i still have to say i dont get how you can get so triggered by Joker. He is the most undramatic guy i've ever seen and he doesnt care for you or the big spotlights.

I actually am a fan of Jokic. He's a great offensive player, and he's very humble and quiet, and he doesn't care about personal accomplishments. I have an issue with Jokic fanboys because they are loud and obnoxious and act like he has no faults, and can do nothing wrong. Any critique that is made of him they take as a personal attack. My advise to them is to take a cue from their idol and be a little more quiet and humble.

Running to the MVP thread after a loss boasting about a generally meaningless statistic is the personification of “loud and obnoxious”.

[Big J]

He is doing little else these days than hate on Jokic. As someone who is very outspoken about some other guy i still have to say i dont get how you can get so triggered by Joker. He is the most undramatic guy i've ever seen and he doesnt care for you or the big spotlights.

I actually am a fan of Jokic. He's a great offensive player, and he's very humble and quiet, and he doesn't care about personal accomplishments. I have an issue with Jokic fanboys because they are loud and obnoxious and act like he has no faults, and can do nothing wrong. Any critique that is made of him they take as a personal attack. My advise to them is to take a cue from their idol and be a little more quiet and humble.

Running to the MVP thread after a loss boasting about a generally meaningless statistic is the personification of “loud and obnoxious”.

That's the other thing. You are very defensive as well. Jokic would just let a comment like that slide off his back.

[Infinite Llamas]

I actually am a fan of Jokic. He's a great offensive player, and he's very humble and quiet, and he doesn't care about personal accomplishments. I have an issue with Jokic fanboys because they are loud and obnoxious and act like he has no faults, and can do nothing wrong. Any critique that is made of him they take as a personal attack. My advise to them is to take a cue from their idol and be a little more quiet and humble.

Running to the MVP thread after a loss boasting about a generally meaningless statistic is the personification of “loud and obnoxious”.

That's the other thing. You are very defensive as well. Jokic would just let a comment like that slide off his back.

And you get defensive whenever someone praises Jokic. This is called being your own worst enemy.