Cooper Flagg discussion thread (Part 2: Son of Cooper Flagg Thread)

[dhsilv2]

Slight below AD would be my guess...about even scorer and worse defender. Pretty insane high praise imo.

[Lalouie]

The next Lawrence Bird

larry was never lawrence. he was larry joe, as in curly moe

[Handlez]

My take, I'm watching the next Lebron James type of player coming in. First time I watched Flagg, he bullied Matas Buzelis of the Bulls while Matas was a senior and Flagg was a Junior. Completely dogged him. His development will accelerate even more with the guys he has around him in Dallas. HOF's everywhere.

I'm thinking a long 15 year career. Multiple MVPs. Maybe a DPOY. And 2-3 titles. Him and Wemby are the future faces. What do you guys think Flagg will become ? Am I wrong, luke warm or totally on the ball?

Criminal expectations lol.

Multiple MVPs. 2-3 titles.

Sheesh.

Kid could be a perennial all-star and be a bust according to those expectations.

[SA37]

I think his worst-case is Franz Wagner; best-case is Tatum/more athletic, less spectacular passing Luka.

[UcanUwill]

I think his worst-case is Franz Wagner; best-case is Tatum/more athletic, less spectacular passing Luka.

I do not see Luka comp at all. Luka is PG who can't play defense and is below the rim guy. Tatum comp is fine, but Flagg has more defensive juice similar to Kawhi, AK47, KG. I think he is shorter KG type, better Ak47 type, Kirilenko had playmaker juice, he just never fulfilled his potential.

[FrodoBaggins]

I don't see Flagg as a full time or even most of the time type of point forward who's constantly bringing the ball up like Lebron/Luka or even an Odom. His passing is very good but I don't think his handle is at that level.

I think in any scenario where he becomes dominant, it's going to be in a Kawhi like fashion where he's an above average athlete, is efficient with his movement, beats defenders to the spot, is able to get his shot off whenever it's needed and he shoots with efficiency from all over the floor.

Flagg as a ballhandler/playmaker projects below Doncic/LeBron level and above Kawhi/Tatum/Durant level. Let's put it this way: in Duke he was much better in point forward-esque role than ~secondary playmakers in ideal scenario (Booker, Durant, Tatum) were in similar age. It's hard to guess what is in between, D-Wade level maybe (as a realistic projection)? I don't know.

While I said earlier that Flagg was in pretty decent spot for his playmaking abilities (Duke had elite-elite fit for college basketball), at the same time it's hard to ignore how efficient he was as a passer in this scenario.

Jimmy Butler/Iguodala kind of playmaker with a knack for PnR lob & roll passes to the big. He's good at all passes to be fair, and that's why I can't rule out Doncic/LeBron/Harden-level potential. Here's what Sam Vecenie had to say about Flagg's passing:

● All of this leads to what might be Flagg’s best offensive skill, though: his passing ability. A very unselfish player. Makes quick decisions. Doesn’t overdribble before finding his teammates. If someone is open, he’s going to hit them. Excellent at getting downhill and making live-dribble passes to create shots for his teammates. Does an amazing job of creating angles with jumps. Awesome at keeping his eyes up even as he goes up for a shot, looking for an easier opportunity for a teammate. Finds the cross-corner kickouts after the tagger sits on the roller. Finds the baseline reads to the corner. Excellent at finding cutters and dump-offs into the dunker spot.

● Even showed some extremely high-level short-roll kickout reads as the screener in ball-screen situations. Can put velocity on the ball, or just throw a well-timed lob with touch. Can throw nearly any pass he has to from any angle. Will be an awesome passer and playmaker for his teammates in the NBA when the passing windows get even wider. Averaged 4.2 assists per game this year versus only 2.1 turnovers.

Combined with his shooting development (last 27 games: 44.4% 3PT on 3.7 3pa/g, 87.7% FT on 6.0 fta/g), his offensive upside may very well be obvious in hindsight. He shot (on limited volume) 41.4% and 43.5% on pull-up & off-screen three-point shooting. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he becomes an 85%+ FT, 37-40%+ 3PT, 45% mid-range level of shooter.

[FrodoBaggins]

Screw it. I'm all in. I think he'll be the best American player since Curry. Better than CP3, KD, and Harden. And his game will resemble a less explosive but smoother & more agile, 20-pound lighter version of LBJ, but with better shooting and defense. A 240-pound SF/PF point forward All-Pro defender with 85%+ FT, 37-40%+ 3PT, 45% mid-range level shooting. 25+ ppg, 7+ rpg, 6+ apg, 1.5+ spg, 1.5+ bpg.

[SA37]

I think his worst-case is Franz Wagner; best-case is Tatum/more athletic, less spectacular passing Luka.

I do not see Luka comp at all. Luka is PG who can't play defense and is below the rim guy. Tatum comp is fine, but Flagg has more defensive juice similar to Kawhi, AK47, KG. I think he is shorter KG type, better Ak47 type, Kirilenko had playmaker juice, he just never fulfilled his potential.

Yeah, Flagg is much more athletic than Luka, which is why I said "more athletic". More than having a similar game, I think we'll see similar numbers, ie potential triple-double stuff, and impact on the game.

Not sure what his defensive ceiling is.

[Calvin Klein]

I expect him to be a beast. My lazy comps...

"Bust" is still a solid glue guy sort of like Tayshaun Prince.

Medium outcome probably something in the ballpark of Paul George.

Ceiling is an MVP contender like Prime Kawhi or Pippin.

But what about second breakfast?

[UcanUwill]

I think his worst-case is Franz Wagner; best-case is Tatum/more athletic, less spectacular passing Luka.

I do not see Luka comp at all. Luka is PG who can't play defense and is below the rim guy. Tatum comp is fine, but Flagg has more defensive juice similar to Kawhi, AK47, KG. I think he is shorter KG type, better Ak47 type, Kirilenko had playmaker juice, he just never fulfilled his potential.

Yeah, Flagg is much more athletic than Luka, which is why I said "more athletic". More than having a similar game, I think we'll see similar numbers, ie potential triple-double stuff, and impact on the game.

Not sure what his defensive ceiling is.

I will be surprised if he puts Luka Numbers. I think he will be very good, but I am not sure if ever one of the absolute top scorers and assisters in a league, I do not think thats happening.

[zero rings]

I think his median outcome is something like Jayson Tatum - an elite two-way wing who's a perennial All-Star and All-NBAer. Which is an insane projection for an 18 year old kid btw

To become more than that, he needs to level up his shooting, playmaking or defense to truly elite levels. Right now he's probably a B+ in all those areas, but he needs to get to A+ in at least one to become an All Timer like you're suggesting.

Jayson Tatum is not a median outcome, it's high end outcome...

Idk, I’m pretty high on Cooper. He’s a much better player than Tatum was coming out of college, and it shouldn’t take that much development for him to get to that level.

I think he’s about 10 lbs of muscle and 2-3 years of experience from being a top 15 player. The skill set is already there.

[dc]

I do not see Luka comp at all. Luka is PG who can't play defense and is below the rim guy. Tatum comp is fine, but Flagg has more defensive juice similar to Kawhi, AK47, KG. I think he is shorter KG type, better Ak47 type, Kirilenko had playmaker juice, he just never fulfilled his potential.

I think the Tatum comp is good as well, but Tatum plays more or less in the pros like he did at Duke. A big wing/combo forward. Flagg was a bigman in college, but he'll have to transition to more of a Tatum like game in the pros out on the wing. He's not going to be a full time big in the pros because he's just not big enough for it. I mean I suppose he can, but he's not going to be the physically dominant force in the pros the same way he was in college playing that way. So from that standpoint, he has more of an adjustment than Tatum.

It's kind of like Shane Battier. Battier being 6'8" played as a bigman at Duke. Averaged 2bpg and was a legit paint protector. In the pros, he transitioned to a wing/all-around defensive player. He was only a part time big. Flagg will have to transition his position the same way. He's not going to be blocking shots and protecting the paint in the pros the same way he did in college. Flagg was dominant defensively in college, but we have to see his footspeed out on the perimeter to see if he can be anywhere near a Kawhi level defender.

Kirilenko was a physical freak (3bpg from the SF position is insane) but he couldn't shoot the ball and he physically went downhill in his late 20s/early 30s. Flagg isn't that kind of physical freak, but he should be a more than good enough athlete and his shot has really improved. The 3 should be a weapon for him.

[Wingy]

I think his median outcome is something like Jayson Tatum - an elite two-way wing who's a perennial All-Star and All-NBAer. Which is an insane projection for an 18 year old kid btw

To become more than that, he needs to level up his shooting, playmaking or defense to truly elite levels. Right now he's probably a B+ in all those areas, but he needs to get to A+ in at least one to become an All Timer like you're suggesting.

Pretty much the same. To feel pretty good about a rookie who has never played an NBA second reaching a Tatum level means the kid is damned impressive.

[Duke4life831]

Honestly, if he doesn’t become a perennial All NBA guy, it will be pretty disappointing. He was the best college player last year, at the ages of 17-18. In an age where many college players are in their early mid 20s. And it’s not like he was some great college player who was a SG in a small PG body or lacks the length or athleticism to be impactful in the NBA.

His basketball IQ and work ethic have been praised since he first came onto the scene as a 15 year old in the U17 world championships.

His shot isn’t broken which could lead to him having a Ben Simmons kind of situation. No fear of him being overweight or a history of injuries.

Ya he doesn’t have a complete freakish attribute like Wemby and his height. Outside of that, he’s pretty much the ideal #1 prospect. A 6’9 wing who is a plus athlete, with a 7 foot wingspan, who was arguably the best defensive player in college basketball at the age of 17-18. Who averaged 19/7/4, while flirting with a 50/40/90 conference season (53/44/86).

He’s pretty much your ideal #1 prospect. Outside of injuries, it will be a disappointment if he isn’t a perennial All NBA guy.

[dc]

Ya he doesn’t have a complete freakish attribute like Wemby and his height. Outside of that, he’s pretty much the ideal #1 prospect. A 6’9 wing who is a plus athlete, with a 7 foot wingspan, who was arguably the best defensive player in college basketball at the age of 17-18. Who averaged 19/7/4, while flirting with a 50/40/90 conference season (53/44/86).

He’s pretty much your ideal #1 prospect. Outside of injuries, it will be a disappointment if he isn’t a perennial All NBA guy.

Again, the only reservation (and it's more of a wait and see at worst) is that Flagg wasn't a wing in college. He was a bigman. He was basically Anthony Davis, but a 6'7 3/4" version of AD. That's still enough to physically dominate in college. We knew that AD was a legit big so he was going to do in the pros exactly what he did in college without any adjustments.

Flagg won't become an elite player in the NBA as a "smaller AD". It just doesn't work that way. He has to transition his game to more of a Tatum/Kawhi like wing. That's when we have to see how good his 1st step, ballhandling and ability to create are.

But his passing and improved shooting look legit which is why I give him a high floor/worst case scenario.

[Cavsfansince84]

Honestly, if he doesn’t become a perennial All NBA guy, it will be pretty disappointing. He was the best college player last year, at the ages of 17-18. In an age where many college players are in their early mid 20s. And it’s not like he was some great college player who was a SG in a small PG body or lacks the length or athleticism to be impactful in the NBA.

His basketball IQ and work ethic have been praised since he first came onto the scene as a 15 year old in the U17 world championships.

His shot isn’t broken which could lead to him having a Ben Simmons kind of situation. No fear of him being overweight or a history of injuries.

Ya he doesn’t have a complete freakish attribute like Wemby and his height. Outside of that, he’s pretty much the ideal #1 prospect. A 6’9 wing who is a plus athlete, with a 7 foot wingspan, who was arguably the best defensive player in college basketball at the age of 17-18. Who averaged 19/7/4, while flirting with a 50/40/90 conference season (53/44/86).

He’s pretty much your ideal #1 prospect. Outside of injuries, it will be a disappointment if he isn’t a perennial All NBA guy.

I think he's gonna be a top 20 player by year 2. Top 15 by year 3. Top 10 in year 4. After that is hard to say but I think he's got a great attitude as far as commitment to keep getting better. I also like him getting to be the third banana in Dal. I think that's much better than going to a 15 win team and being expected to semi carry a team on both ends as a rookie/2nd year player.

[Duke4life831]

Ya he doesn’t have a complete freakish attribute like Wemby and his height. Outside of that, he’s pretty much the ideal #1 prospect. A 6’9 wing who is a plus athlete, with a 7 foot wingspan, who was arguably the best defensive player in college basketball at the age of 17-18. Who averaged 19/7/4, while flirting with a 50/40/90 conference season (53/44/86).

He’s pretty much your ideal #1 prospect. Outside of injuries, it will be a disappointment if he isn’t a perennial All NBA guy.

Again, the only reservation (and it's more of a wait and see at worst) is that Flagg wasn't a wing in college. He was a bigman. He was basically Anthony Davis, but a 6'7 3/4" version of AD. That's still enough to physically dominate in college. We knew that AD was a legit big so he was going to do in the pros exactly what he did in college without any adjustments.

Flagg won't become an elite player in the NBA as a "smaller AD". It just doesn't work that way. He has to transition his game to more of a Tatum/Kawhi like wing. That's when we have to see how good his 1st step, ballhandling and ability to create are.

But his passing and improved shooting look legit which is why I give him a high floor/worst case scenario.

How was he not a wing? The role he played in college had zero resemblance of the role AD played in college.

AD played the 5 his entire season at UK. Flagg played all over the court, except at the 5. Flagg led Duke in assists, AD was 6th out of the 7 rotation players on UK that year in assists. AD attempted 20 3s, which was the 7th most. Flagg attempted 135 3s, which was 4th most.

Flagg did play help defender on defense a good amount. But he was also asked to defend high level perimeter players as well. He was not anchoring a defense like AD was doing for that UK team.

I just see zero comparison between Flagg and AD on how they played in college.

[johannking]

Ya he doesn’t have a complete freakish attribute like Wemby and his height. Outside of that, he’s pretty much the ideal #1 prospect. A 6’9 wing who is a plus athlete, with a 7 foot wingspan, who was arguably the best defensive player in college basketball at the age of 17-18. Who averaged 19/7/4, while flirting with a 50/40/90 conference season (53/44/86).

He’s pretty much your ideal #1 prospect. Outside of injuries, it will be a disappointment if he isn’t a perennial All NBA guy.

Again, the only reservation (and it's more of a wait and see at worst) is that Flagg wasn't a wing in college. He was a bigman. He was basically Anthony Davis, but a 6'7 3/4" version of AD. That's still enough to physically dominate in college. We knew that AD was a legit big so he was going to do in the pros exactly what he did in college without any adjustments.

Flagg won't become an elite player in the NBA as a "smaller AD". It just doesn't work that way. He has to transition his game to more of a Tatum/Kawhi like wing. That's when we have to see how good his 1st step, ballhandling and ability to create are.

But his passing and improved shooting look legit which is why I give him a high floor/worst case scenario.

How many Duke games have you watched last season?

[dc]

Ya he doesn’t have a complete freakish attribute like Wemby and his height. Outside of that, he’s pretty much the ideal #1 prospect. A 6’9 wing who is a plus athlete, with a 7 foot wingspan, who was arguably the best defensive player in college basketball at the age of 17-18. Who averaged 19/7/4, while flirting with a 50/40/90 conference season (53/44/86).

He’s pretty much your ideal #1 prospect. Outside of injuries, it will be a disappointment if he isn’t a perennial All NBA guy.

Again, the only reservation (and it's more of a wait and see at worst) is that Flagg wasn't a wing in college. He was a bigman. He was basically Anthony Davis, but a 6'7 3/4" version of AD. That's still enough to physically dominate in college. We knew that AD was a legit big so he was going to do in the pros exactly what he did in college without any adjustments.

Flagg won't become an elite player in the NBA as a "smaller AD". It just doesn't work that way. He has to transition his game to more of a Tatum/Kawhi like wing. That's when we have to see how good his 1st step, ballhandling and ability to create are.

But his passing and improved shooting look legit which is why I give him a high floor/worst case scenario.

How many Duke games have you watched last season?

Watched plenty. The guy played the 4. He was a college big. A versatile one at that, but he'll be matching up with NBA wings, not bigs.

[Duke4life831]

Again, the only reservation (and it's more of a wait and see at worst) is that Flagg wasn't a wing in college. He was a bigman. He was basically Anthony Davis, but a 6'7 3/4" version of AD. That's still enough to physically dominate in college. We knew that AD was a legit big so he was going to do in the pros exactly what he did in college without any adjustments.

Flagg won't become an elite player in the NBA as a "smaller AD". It just doesn't work that way. He has to transition his game to more of a Tatum/Kawhi like wing. That's when we have to see how good his 1st step, ballhandling and ability to create are.

But his passing and improved shooting look legit which is why I give him a high floor/worst case scenario.

How many Duke games have you watched last season?

Watched plenty. The guy played the 4. He was a college big. A versatile one at that, but he'll be matching up with NBA wings, not bigs.

I’m sorry, but what?

Duke played a 1 in and 4 out offense last year. Then on defense they switched everything 1-4, with Maluach either hedging hard or playing drop coverage.

I don’t see how you can watch Flagg and Duke play last year and come away with, he was a college big and played essentially the same role as AD played at UK. Like this isn’t even a subjective thing. They objectively played drastically different roles.

Again Flagg was the leading facilitator and had a very heavy perimeter offensive style. Then defensively he switched 1-4. None of that describes anywhere close to how AD played at UK.