Does the amount of Teams he played for hurt Lebron's legacy?

[Bergmaniac]

The good old "How does this affect LeBron's legacy" meme remains as relevant as ever apparently.

[Mattatron]

Lol

[OriginalRed]

In the 2009-10 season Bosh was not All-NBA, so I'll push back hard on him being a top 15 player.

Kyrie was 22 years old when LeBron returned to the Cavs, guy was not in his prime nor All-NBA in 2013-14 so again, going to push back hard on him being a top 15 player.

So maybe those teams being the clear favorite to win has something to do with LeBron?

Bosh absolutely was a Top 15 player heading into 2011. All NBA teams back then were still position based so you can't just use that as your criteria. He was Top 10 in the league in nearly every advanced stat and should have made it over guys like Joe Johnson and Brandon Roy if they didn't need guards on the team. Why do you think Miami was called a Big Three and not Two and a half lol?

Your Kyrie point is more valid since he wasn't quite there yet in 2014 but by the time the Cavs started clicking in 2015 he was definitely one of the best guards in the NBA despite being 23 and Kevin Love as we all know was at worst the second best power forward in the game. Both those teams were looked at as super teams, so him joining some low win team the previous year doesn't matter when your pairing such talent on one team.

They were called the big 3 bc the Celtics coined that phrase and the Heat were built to beat them, if you recall.

https://youtu.be/ExD8Hufin9U?si=T5Ijh4xM2zENcf-w

I know most people don't want to acknowledge that because then it kills the narrative.

But it matters that Kyrie and Love had never played in the playoffs... They had not proven anything. It also matters in the 2015 Finals LeBron didn't get to start alongside Kyrie, Love, and Andy V like he did to start that season.

Okay but were the Big 3 in Miami not looked at as a teaming of three star players, three franchise leading players? Where the name originated from is irrelevant because it still applied to them.

Again, I'll give you Kyrie being a question mark until he proved it but it didn't take long for that trio to dispel any doubts anyway.

[OriginalRed]

Bosh absolutely was a Top 15 player heading into 2011. All NBA teams back then were still position based so you can't just use that as your criteria. He was Top 10 in the league in nearly every advanced stat and should have made it over guys like Joe Johnson and Brandon Roy if they didn't need guards on the team. Why do you think Miami was called a Big Three and not Two and a half lol?

Your Kyrie point is more valid since he wasn't quite there yet in 2014 but by the time the Cavs started clicking in 2015 he was definitely one of the best guards in the NBA despite being 23 and Kevin Love as we all know was at worst the second best power forward in the game. Both those teams were looked at as super teams, so him joining some low win team the previous year doesn't matter when your pairing such talent on one team.

They were called the big 3 bc the Celtics coined that phrase and the Heat were built to beat them, if you recall.

https://youtu.be/ExD8Hufin9U?si=T5Ijh4xM2zENcf-w

I know most people don't want to acknowledge that because then it kills the narrative.

But it matters that Kyrie and Love had never played in the playoffs... They had not proven anything. It also matters in the 2015 Finals LeBron didn't get to start alongside Kyrie, Love, and Andy V like he did to start that season.

Okay but were the Big 3 in Miami not looked at as a teaming of three star players, three franchise leading players? The term still applied to them even if they weren't the origin of it.

Again, I'll give you Kyrie being a question mark until he proved it but it didn't take long for that trio to dispel any doubts anyway.

[JujitsuFlip]

Bosh absolutely was a Top 15 player heading into 2011. All NBA teams back then were still position based so you can't just use that as your criteria. He was Top 10 in the league in nearly every advanced stat and should have made it over guys like Joe Johnson and Brandon Roy if they didn't need guards on the team. Why do you think Miami was called a Big Three and not Two and a half lol?

Your Kyrie point is more valid since he wasn't quite there yet in 2014 but by the time the Cavs started clicking in 2015 he was definitely one of the best guards in the NBA despite being 23 and Kevin Love as we all know was at worst the second best power forward in the game. Both those teams were looked at as super teams, so him joining some low win team the previous year doesn't matter when your pairing such talent on one team.

They were called the big 3 bc the Celtics coined that phrase and the Heat were built to beat them, if you recall.

https://youtu.be/ExD8Hufin9U?si=T5Ijh4xM2zENcf-w

I know most people don't want to acknowledge that because then it kills the narrative.

But it matters that Kyrie and Love had never played in the playoffs... They had not proven anything. It also matters in the 2015 Finals LeBron didn't get to start alongside Kyrie, Love, and Andy V like he did to start that season.

Okay but were the Big 3 in Miami not looked at as a teaming of three star players, three franchise leading players? Where the name originated from is irrelevant because it still applied to them.

Again, I'll give you Kyrie being a question mark until he proved it but it didn't take long for that trio to dispel any doubts anyway.

Sure but that's not what we were discussing. You boldly claimed LeBron always teamed up with 2 top 15 players which is very debatable, especially in the 2014 Cavs case, highlighted by neither of his 'big 3' counterparts had ever played a single minute in the playoffs.

[OriginalRed]

They were called the big 3 bc the Celtics coined that phrase and the Heat were built to beat them, if you recall.

https://youtu.be/ExD8Hufin9U?si=T5Ijh4xM2zENcf-w

I know most people don't want to acknowledge that because then it kills the narrative.

But it matters that Kyrie and Love had never played in the playoffs... They had not proven anything. It also matters in the 2015 Finals LeBron didn't get to start alongside Kyrie, Love, and Andy V like he did to start that season.

Okay but were the Big 3 in Miami not looked at as a teaming of three star players, three franchise leading players? Where the name originated from is irrelevant because it still applied to them.

Again, I'll give you Kyrie being a question mark until he proved it but it didn't take long for that trio to dispel any doubts anyway.

Sure but that's not what we were discussing. You boldly claimed LeBron always teamed up with 2 top 15 players which is very debatable, especially in the 2014 Cavs case, highlighted by neither of his 'big 3' counterparts had ever played a single minute in the playoffs.

Well the Miami one is not debatable at all to me, but the Cavs one sure. But the original point that started this entire thing was that Lebron going to teams that won 40 or 30ish games is not a case of going to some bottom feeding NBA team and uplifting them when he's teaming up with star talent.

[OriginalRed]

Okay but were the Big 3 in Miami not looked at as a teaming of three star players, three franchise leading players? Where the name originated from is irrelevant because it still applied to them.

Again, I'll give you Kyrie being a question mark until he proved it but it didn't take long for that trio to dispel any doubts anyway.

Sure but that's not what we were discussing. You boldly claimed LeBron always teamed up with 2 top 15 players which is very debatable, especially in the 2014 Cavs case, highlighted by neither of his 'big 3' counterparts had ever played a single minute in the playoffs.

Well the Miami one is not debatable at all to me, but the Cavs one sure. But the original point that started this entire thing was that Lebron going to teams that won 40 or 30ish games is not a case of going to some bottom feeding NBA team and uplifting them when he's teaming up with star talent. Everyone knew they'd be good immediately.

[JujitsuFlip]

Okay but were the Big 3 in Miami not looked at as a teaming of three star players, three franchise leading players? Where the name originated from is irrelevant because it still applied to them.

Again, I'll give you Kyrie being a question mark until he proved it but it didn't take long for that trio to dispel any doubts anyway.

Sure but that's not what we were discussing. You boldly claimed LeBron always teamed up with 2 top 15 players which is very debatable, especially in the 2014 Cavs case, highlighted by neither of his 'big 3' counterparts had ever played a single minute in the playoffs.

Well the Miami one is not debatable at all to me, but the Cavs one sure. But the original point that started this entire thing was that Lebron going to teams that won 40 or 30ish games is not a case of going to some bottom feeding NBA team and uplifting them when he's teaming up with star talent.

I'd have to see what metrics make you consider Bosh top 15 in 2010. He wasn't an All-Star starter or All-NBA, so at least by opinions he was not but maybe some advance metrics say otherwise.

If you recall the Heat wanted Stoudemire instead of Bosh but Wade and Bosh had the same agent, so Bosh was the 3rd banana.

[G35]

The obvious answer should be "No, who cares?", but I think there is something about being iconic to a certain city / team, that it can actually elevate your legacy. Like Dirk or Reggie Miller. Also there are people lile Moses Malone, who isn't nearly as highly regarded as he should be, partly due to the amount of teams he's been on.

I keep wondering what jersey people will picture him in in their head once he's retired, what team people will remember him playing for? I mean, he has not really been a constant long enough, has he? Especially in his prime and the later years, he never made people feel comfortable that he's "their guy". Always one foot out, keeping everybody on edge for the sake of leverage.

In the end, has this moving around really benefitted his legacy or even maybe hurt it a little bit, since he was never part of a team that people will remember 15 years from now like the Warriors, the Spurs, the Pistons, the Bulls, etc.?

It does not enhance his legacy by playing for so many different teams and you can't really associate him with any one franchise since he has had no loyalty to any one franchise.

But what hurts Lebron's legacy is his playoff performance in each conference:

Lebron's Eastern Conference playoff record
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-eastern-conference-playoff-series-record

- 156-83 = 65% winning percentage
- No first round playoff losses
- 10 ECF appearances

Lebron's Western Conference playoff record
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-record-vs-western-conference-playoff-teams (I don't know why but the link does not show his playoff record while in the West but his Finals record vs the West so I will post this image)



- 42-54 = 44% winning percentage
- Missed playoffs twice
- Three 1st round eliminations

This is why so many people are not impressed with Lebron winning so many ECF titles because we knew he couldn't duplicate that success in the West, too many hard matchups. There has not been an easy time to get through the West:

2000's - Kobe/Shaq, Kobe/Pau, Duncan/Manu/Parker, Dirk/Nash, Nash/Marion/Stoudemire, Webber/Bibby/Divac/Peja, Yao/McGrady, Carmelo/Iverson, Deron Williams/Boozer

2010's - Curry/Klay/Draymond, Curry/Klay/KD/Draymond, WB/KD/Harden, CP3/Griffin/Jordan, Dirk/Kidd/Chandler, Duncan/Manu/Kawhi/Parker, Harden/Gordon/Capela,

2020's - Curry/Klay/Draymond, Booker/CP3/Ayton, Jokic/Murray/Porter, Kawhi/George, Luka/Kyrie/Finney-Smith, SGA/Williams

The West is a level above the East when it comes to the playoffs......

[MavsDirk41]

This is so exhausting.

But lets check out the east in 09/10. Orlando won 59 games with Howard, Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson, Matt Barnes and 33 year old Vince Carter. Atlanta won 50 plus with Al Horford, Josh Smith, and Joe Johnson, and Boston won 50 plus with 34 year old Ray Allen, 33 year old Garnett, and Pierce. I wouldnt call the East talented at this point in nba history.

Miami added two all star players to join Wade. Why would they not be contenders. Take Bosh off that Toronto team and add just James. They still arent winning anything.

Kyrie Irving was 22 when James teamed up with him in Cleveland. What had James won at 22? Take Love off that Minnesota team and add James and they win nothing.

What did James accomplish without Wade, Bosh, Irving, Davis, and Love? Ill answer for you….nothing…

And he just got gifted a 26 year old top 5 player. Jordan was playing with Stackhouse and Ty Lue at 40. Quit the glazing.

You're moving the goal posts. Who said Wade, Bosh, and LBJ aren't contenders? lmao

What had James did at age 22 you ask? Take the Cavs to the NBA Finals, what a terrible position for you to take, lol

Uhm, that's untrue. LeBron went to the Finals in 2007 and 2018 without any of the bold. He also was a 2 time MVP of the league, 8 time All-NBA, 8 time All-Star, and 1 time All-Defense... That right there is a hall of fame career all on it's own.

Ill give you the taking Cleveland to the finals at 22, i though he was 23. Was Love not on Cleveland in 2018?

Ok and Jordan never was an all star, all nba, all defensive team without Pippen lol? Im not saying James isnt one of the greatest of all time but the guy had help winning his championships just like everybody else does and he teamed up with other established allstars to do it. Not sure why you have a problem with that.

[ShootersShoot]

A championship and Finals MVP with every team he’s played for. If anything, it boosts his legacy.

Its because he joins teams with great assets, such as a mvp level player in wade on a team with enough cap space to sign two all stars, or a team with an all star young guard and another #1 pick used to trade for another all star.

Imagine giannis or jokic in their primes leaving to join teams with two other all stars already every 4 years..they prob have multiple rings too.

[MavsDirk41]

Sure but that's not what we were discussing. You boldly claimed LeBron always teamed up with 2 top 15 players which is very debatable, especially in the 2014 Cavs case, highlighted by neither of his 'big 3' counterparts had ever played a single minute in the playoffs.

Well the Miami one is not debatable at all to me, but the Cavs one sure. But the original point that started this entire thing was that Lebron going to teams that won 40 or 30ish games is not a case of going to some bottom feeding NBA team and uplifting them when he's teaming up with star talent.

I'd have to see what metrics make you consider Bosh top 15 in 2010. He wasn't an All-Star starter or All-NBA, so at least by opinions he was not but maybe some advance metrics say otherwise.

If you recall the Heat wanted Stoudemire instead of Bosh but Wade and Bosh had the same agent, so Bosh was the 3rd banana.

Bosh wasnt an all star in 2010? Since when lol?

[pwayknicks]

A championship and Finals MVP with every team he’s played for. If anything, it boosts his legacy.

Its because he joins teams with great assets, such as a mvp level player in wade on a team with enough cap space to sign two all stars, or a team with an all star young guard and another #1 pick used to trade for another all star.

Imagine giannis or jokic in their primes leaving to join teams with two other all stars already every 4 years..they prob have multiple rings too.

Yeah it’s crazy because the cavs hadn’t won prior it’s considered some bad team he joined. Imagine sga signed for just money in San Antonio next year to join wemby and a team with assets . LeBron was just “smart” and made it look like he joined whatever teams, when those teams were missing just 1 star. LeBron is crazy but please stop w the he joined crap teams non sense and Durant took the easy way out. It’s old … it’s played .. those with brains have seen right through it


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[The4thHorseman]

Okay but were the Big 3 in Miami not looked at as a teaming of three star players, three franchise leading players? Where the name originated from is irrelevant because it still applied to them.

Again, I'll give you Kyrie being a question mark until he proved it but it didn't take long for that trio to dispel any doubts anyway.

Sure but that's not what we were discussing. You boldly claimed LeBron always teamed up with 2 top 15 players which is very debatable, especially in the 2014 Cavs case, highlighted by neither of his 'big 3' counterparts had ever played a single minute in the playoffs.

Well the Miami one is not debatable at all to me, but the Cavs one sure. But the original point that started this entire thing was that Lebron going to teams that won 40 or 30ish games is not a case of going to some bottom feeding NBA team and uplifting them when he's teaming up with star talent.

James signed in 2003 with the 17 win bottom feeding Cavs and then resigned with them again even after Boozer took off. He spent his first 7yrs without an All NBA teammate and only Varejao was named to the All Defensive team in 2010.

Irving and Love played a combined 9yrs with no playoff appearances. Other than LeBron, who else on those Cavs teams had postseason experience? Calling them a superteam is a reach at best.

[ShootersShoot]

A championship and Finals MVP with every team he’s played for. If anything, it boosts his legacy.

Its because he joins teams with great assets, such as a mvp level player in wade on a team with enough cap space to sign two all stars, or a team with an all star young guard and another #1 pick used to trade for another all star.

Imagine giannis or jokic in their primes leaving to join teams with two other all stars already every 4 years..they prob have multiple rings too.

Yeah it’s crazy because the cavs hadn’t won prior it’s considered some bad team he joined. Imagine sga signed for just money in San Antonio next year to join wemby and a team with assets . LeBron was just “smart” and made it look like he joined whatever teams, when those teams were missing just 1 star. LeBron is crazy but please stop w the he joined crap teams non sense and Durant took the easy way out. It’s old … it’s played .. those with brains have seen right through it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Picture this scenario..giannis gets mad the bucks traded jrue and decides to sign with miami to play with bam and jimmy , then leaves when jimmy is looking a bit long in the tooth to play with cade in detroit. Basically the same kind of moves bron made.

But wait both teams had worse records than giannis teams!

[dakomish23]

IMO LeBron legacy was cemented forever once he took out the 73 win GSW team. After that it’s all gravy

[76Shots]

I think it actually helps his legacy.

He's the only player in NBA history to prove that he can win in 3 completely different teams, different teammates and coaches. He led all 3 to championships and got finals MVP.

I actually think Jordans 6 with Pippen and Jackson is not telling you that Jordan was the common denominator. Rather the combination of the 3 was important and it worked well enough to repeat. Jordan teams didn't look so good without the triangle system. We can only guess if he could have won on other teams and in other systems, no proof.

KAJ also proved it like LeBron.

I disagree.

Lebron joins teams, gets them to mortgage their future to build enough win-now talent, wins, and then leaves the team in shambles to go repeat the same process on a new team that has already sacrificed to accumulate assets.

It's certainly a smart move that enables Lebron to have enough talent around him to compete for championships, but I think it tarnishes the value of his legacy a bit. I'm not as impressed that Lebron has so many career playoff games and so many Finals appearances because he did so by hopping onto different teams while they were at the peak of their development/compete/rebuild cycle and hopping off to miss out on the losing portion of the cycle. What Jordan, Russell and Duncan did by winning 5+ titles on the same team is more impressive.

The fact is, none of this has ever happened. Obviously this didn't happen when LeBron was drafted by the Cavs for the first 7 seasons of his career. Then, when LeBron left Cleveland and joined Miami as a free agent, the Heat literally had 1 player under contract going into free agency, as they were preping for years for arguably the greatest free agency class ever. Then LeBron returns to Cleveland and no doubt played a role in getting the Cavs to trade #1 pick Wiggins for top 15 player in his prime, Kevin Love. I wouldn't necessarily call that "mortgaging the future." Then when he joined the Lakers as a free agent, he joined a team that consisted of Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma and Micahel Beasely as some of the most notable names and proceeded to go 37-45. Again, no doubt LeBron played a role in getting the Lakers to trade Lonzo, BI, Josh Hart and 3 picks for prime top 10 player Anthony Davis. And again, I wouldnt call that "mortgaging the future".

So while the perception of what you're saying may have validity to some, context and reality beg to differ.

[OriginalRed]

Sure but that's not what we were discussing. You boldly claimed LeBron always teamed up with 2 top 15 players which is very debatable, especially in the 2014 Cavs case, highlighted by neither of his 'big 3' counterparts had ever played a single minute in the playoffs.

Well the Miami one is not debatable at all to me, but the Cavs one sure. But the original point that started this entire thing was that Lebron going to teams that won 40 or 30ish games is not a case of going to some bottom feeding NBA team and uplifting them when he's teaming up with star talent.

I'd have to see what metrics make you consider Bosh top 15 in 2010. He wasn't an All-Star starter or All-NBA, so at least by opinions he was not but maybe some advance metrics say otherwise.

If you recall the Heat wanted Stoudemire instead of Bosh but Wade and Bosh had the same agent, so Bosh was the 3rd banana.

His stats across the board were better then Brandon Roy and Joe Johnson's who both made All-NBA mainly because they were guards and the spots needed to be filled. He had a 25 PER that year which was 4th in the league and ahead of Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, Carmelo Anthony, and even Steve Nash, all of whom made the All-NBA team. He ranked 7th in Offensive Win Shares and every guy ranked above him was to no surprise, All-NBA. People sleep on Bosh man cuz he played for a franchise no one looked at or cared about.

[NbaAllDay]

I think its far more impressive to be part of a dynasty and dominate the nba with the organization that drafted you like a Jordan or Duncan in comparison to team hopping and teaming up with other established all star players to win.

If only every all time great had the front office and coaches these guys had within the earlier parts of their career.

This narrative is so tiring it shouldn't need to be expanded on.

He could have stayed in Miami with Spo (future HOF coach) and let Riley build a roster around him. Miami is one of the top nba organizations in drafting and developing talent, plus they are a top free agent destination. But im glad we will overlook this because it doesnt make him look good. Lol come on man.

Interesting of you to assume that 'staying with a team' is the default umpeachble decision. Easier to trust a system when you are drafted onto a far superior one/get it set up very early on.

Maybe 7 years of a horrible FO leads you to taking some of those decisions into your own hands.

The irony being the same people who whinge about a player changing teams, are often the same people who throw up the 6/6 and 6>4 memes and would double down even more if he rode it out with the same team and won 2-3.

Not every player can have the best coach and team in the league for 8 years

[Raps in 4]

Yes, it does for me. His first move was understandable given that the Cavs were horrifically mismanaged, but he's been jumping ship from team to team every few years since then. Part of being an all-time great is overcoming adversity, and LeBron has always run away from adversity.