Raptors: Masai’s hunt for another championship!?

[ConSarnit]

Raptors could absolutely get Giannis.

Barnes+RJ for Giannis is a competitive player base to add picks too

Raps would still have IQ, Dick, BI, Poeltl around Giannis

Two guys who aren’t even proven All Stars or blue chip prospects for Giannis? You’re joking or totally disconnected from reality

Barnes was an all star last season...

You're also getting pick #9 and 3 future FRPs


Let's look at what Davis got:
BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4, 2 FRP


Barnes, RJ, #9 = BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4
So Giannis getting an extra FRP than the Davis deal.
And Bucks get to send Giannis to a place he wants to go. A big city, big Greek population, east coast, Masai GM.

I’ve argued this on the Raptors board but I don’t understand why Barnes value is so high?

Consider this player:

-4 years of below league average efficiency scoring

-never averaged 20+ PPG

-1 all-star appearance

-has never made an all-defense team

-is about to make the 25% max

Does that guy sound like the centerpiece in a trade for an MVP? Doesn’t to me.

[GiannisAnte34]

Picks on top of this but this is probably a framework of it.

Wow you’re smoking some strong stuff

At a certain point though, if Giannis demands out and to a specific location - get ready to get reduced value.

I'm not saying Toronto is going ot get him, but history is not kind to that situation.

Name an example of an MVP level player demanding a specific team and then the team currently with said MVP level player getting significantly reduced value back?

Melo demanded New York and FA was looming. The Nuggets got Chandler, Gallinari, Morton, Felton, 1 FRP, 1 pick swap, 2 SRP, and $3 million cash. The firsts turned into Jamal Murray and Dario Saric.

Houston got Oladipo, Exum, Kurucs, 3 unprotected FRP, 4 FRP swaps, and 1 protected FRP for Harden.

Old post ACL injury KD got the Suns Mikal Bridges (5 FRP)
Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder (5 SRP) 4 FRP and a swap.

[Raps in 4]

I think IQ would have an uptick in performance and efficiency playing alongside Giannis.
IQ had some very good games for the Knicks 2 seasons ago. He's certainly got some potential.

Ingram as a clear #2 option with Giannis' massive gravity should do pretty well I'd say also.

A big problem with IQ and BI is that they're both always injured. We'd need to tread very carefully in order to ensure they're both healthy for the playoffs.

But yeah, they'd look good next to Giannis. Would they be a contending core? Possibly. We'd need to keep Ochai and JaKobe as well, IMO, and I don't think that's realistic.

Could Scottie + Dick + #9 + multiple FRPs get it done? I don't think so. Unless SAS, Houston, and OKC aren't interested.

[Effigy]

The Raptors had almost a decade of making the playoffs and being a high seed. They kept running into Lebron James.

We just needed one player that can lift the whole team, and get a bucket when needed. Kawhi was that guy.

The team had:

Kyle Lowry: 6× NBA All-Star (2015–2020), All-NBA Third Team (2016)

Marc Gasol: 3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017), All-NBA First Team (2015), All-NBA Second Team (2013), NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2013), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)

Pascal Siakam: NBA Most Improved Player (2019) Future 2× NBA All-Star (2020, 2023), All-NBA Second Team (2020), All-NBA Third Team (2022)

Danny Green: NBA Champion (2014), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017)

Serge Ibaka: 3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2014)

Fred VanVleet: NBA Champion (2019), NBA All-Star (2022)


Not to forget: OG and Norm Powell.

That's really, really not a fluke.

It was a fluke in the sense that it's very very rare to play a finals against a team without it's best player. Last time I can think of it happening was back to back in 88 and 89 when Magic and Isiah were hurt in different years. The Raptors weren't the best team that year, everyone knows that. They got to play a team missing it's best player, and then their third best player got hurt and missed some time and came back later in the series but wasn't the same. And for some reason, Raptors fans try to rewrite history and pretend that's not the case, lol.

Nobody tries to rewrite it. But you're narrowing the scope of 'had to play against a finals team without their best player'. Meanwhile there are many instances of playing against teams in other rounds without their best player which is also just as impactful.

Every team has had to overcome or benefit from injuries on their path to a title. You could mark so many as 'flukey' in that case.

In reality, the Warriors sacrificed depth for star power, road those stars late into the playoffs year after year and then saw the byproduct of having to do that. that's part of the "journey".

Raps had ridiculous depth that year, were able to load manage Kawhi like a boss and withstand the injuries he had going into the finals. Let's not forget he was on one leg during the Finals.

Right, teams have injuries to their best players in the playoffs all the time, but it almost never happens in the finals. That's why it's a fluke. You have to back to the 80's for the last time it happened. Very, very unsual.

[Duffman100]

It was a fluke in the sense that it's very very rare to play a finals against a team without it's best player. Last time I can think of it happening was back to back in 88 and 89 when Magic and Isiah were hurt in different years. The Raptors weren't the best team that year, everyone knows that. They got to play a team missing it's best player, and then their third best player got hurt and missed some time and came back later in the series but wasn't the same. And for some reason, Raptors fans try to rewrite history and pretend that's not the case, lol.

Nobody tries to rewrite it. But you're narrowing the scope of 'had to play against a finals team without their best player'. Meanwhile there are many instances of playing against teams in other rounds without their best player which is also just as impactful.

Every team has had to overcome or benefit from injuries on their path to a title. You could mark so many as 'flukey' in that case.

In reality, the Warriors sacrificed depth for star power, road those stars late into the playoffs year after year and then saw the byproduct of having to do that. that's part of the "journey".

Raps had ridiculous depth that year, were able to load manage Kawhi like a boss and withstand the injuries he had going into the finals. Let's not forget he was on one leg during the Finals.

Right, teams have injuries to their best players in the playoffs all the time, but it almost never happens in the finals. That's why it's a fluke. You have to back to the 80's for the last time it happened. Very, very unsual.

But wouldn't in turn, those teams getting to the finals because of the 'best player of another team injured' be considered a fluke. Thus the opponent of the finals team winning also then be a fluke?

[mademan]

It was a fluke in the sense that it's very very rare to play a finals against a team without it's best player. Last time I can think of it happening was back to back in 88 and 89 when Magic and Isiah were hurt in different years. The Raptors weren't the best team that year, everyone knows that. They got to play a team missing it's best player, and then their third best player got hurt and missed some time and came back later in the series but wasn't the same. And for some reason, Raptors fans try to rewrite history and pretend that's not the case, lol.

Nobody tries to rewrite it. But you're narrowing the scope of 'had to play against a finals team without their best player'. Meanwhile there are many instances of playing against teams in other rounds without their best player which is also just as impactful.

Every team has had to overcome or benefit from injuries on their path to a title. You could mark so many as 'flukey' in that case.

In reality, the Warriors sacrificed depth for star power, road those stars late into the playoffs year after year and then saw the byproduct of having to do that. that's part of the "journey".

Raps had ridiculous depth that year, were able to load manage Kawhi like a boss and withstand the injuries he had going into the finals. Let's not forget he was on one leg during the Finals.

Right, teams have injuries to their best players in the playoffs all the time, but it almost never happens in the finals. That's why it's a fluke. You have to back to the 80's for the last time it happened. Very, very unsual.

So it's only a fluke if an injury occurs in the finals?

[Duffman100]

Wow you’re smoking some strong stuff

At a certain point though, if Giannis demands out and to a specific location - get ready to get reduced value.

I'm not saying Toronto is going ot get him, but history is not kind to that situation.

Name an example of an MVP level player demanding a specific team and then the team currently with said MVP level player getting significantly reduced value back?

Melo demanded New York and FA was looming. The Nuggets got Chandler, Gallinari, Morton, Felton, 1 FRP, 1 pick swap, 2 SRP, and $3 million cash. The firsts turned into Jamal Murray and Dario Saric.

Houston got Oladipo, Exum, Kurucs, 3 unprotected FRP, 4 FRP swaps, and 1 protected FRP for Harden.

Old post ACL injury KD got the Suns Mikal Bridges (5 FRP)
Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder (5 SRP) 4 FRP and a swap.

Both of those deals you mentioned are significantly reduced compensation for the player that they received.

[GiannisAnte34]

At a certain point though, if Giannis demands out and to a specific location - get ready to get reduced value.

I'm not saying Toronto is going ot get him, but history is not kind to that situation.

Name an example of an MVP level player demanding a specific team and then the team currently with said MVP level player getting significantly reduced value back?

Melo demanded New York and FA was looming. The Nuggets got Chandler, Gallinari, Morton, Felton, 1 FRP, 1 pick swap, 2 SRP, and $3 million cash. The firsts turned into Jamal Murray and Dario Saric.

Houston got Oladipo, Exum, Kurucs, 3 unprotected FRP, 4 FRP swaps, and 1 protected FRP for Harden.

Old post ACL injury KD got the Suns Mikal Bridges (5 FRP)
Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder (5 SRP) 4 FRP and a swap.

Both of those deals you mentioned are significantly reduced compensation for the player that they received.

There were 3 trades cited so the fact you replied with “both” tells me you didn’t even read it appropriately

[Effigy]

Nobody tries to rewrite it. But you're narrowing the scope of 'had to play against a finals team without their best player'. Meanwhile there are many instances of playing against teams in other rounds without their best player which is also just as impactful.

Every team has had to overcome or benefit from injuries on their path to a title. You could mark so many as 'flukey' in that case.

In reality, the Warriors sacrificed depth for star power, road those stars late into the playoffs year after year and then saw the byproduct of having to do that. that's part of the "journey".

Raps had ridiculous depth that year, were able to load manage Kawhi like a boss and withstand the injuries he had going into the finals. Let's not forget he was on one leg during the Finals.

Right, teams have injuries to their best players in the playoffs all the time, but it almost never happens in the finals. That's why it's a fluke. You have to back to the 80's for the last time it happened. Very, very unsual.

But wouldn't in turn, those teams getting to the finals because of the 'best player of another team injured' be considered a fluke. Thus the opponent of the finals team winning also then be a fluke?

I think describing the 2019 Warriros as if they are just any other team playing without it's best player is a little disingenuous. This isn't a team without any real hopes like Memphis playing without Ja. The 2019 Warriors had made the finals for the last 4 previous years, they were overwhelming favorites to win again. This was a generational team. It would be like the Jazz finally getting a title in 1998 if Michael Jordan had been hurt. There's not a lot of overwhelming favorites that lost their best player in the playoffs that I can recall. Boston lost Tatum this year, but they weren't on Golden State's level, and they were already down 2-1 and getting blown out in game 4 when it happened.

[Woodsanity]

Raps' title run was as flukey as it gets, maybe in another 10 years it happens again but not immediately.

The Raptors had almost a decade of making the playoffs and being a high seed. They kept running into Lebron James.

We just needed one player that can lift the whole team, and get a bucket when needed. Kawhi was that guy.

The team had:

Kyle Lowry: 6× NBA All-Star (2015–2020), All-NBA Third Team (2016)

Marc Gasol: 3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017), All-NBA First Team (2015), All-NBA Second Team (2013), NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2013), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)

Pascal Siakam: NBA Most Improved Player (2019) Future 2× NBA All-Star (2020, 2023), All-NBA Second Team (2020), All-NBA Third Team (2022)

Danny Green: NBA Champion (2014), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017)

Serge Ibaka: 3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2014)

Fred VanVleet: NBA Champion (2019), NBA All-Star (2022)


Not to forget: OG and Norm Powell.

That's really, really not a fluke.

I would say the only fluke/lucky thing was Kawhi being relatively healthy. But aside from that the Raptors were a good team that was just lacking a 1st option. So Kawhi fit in like a glove.

[Duffman100]

Right, teams have injuries to their best players in the playoffs all the time, but it almost never happens in the finals. That's why it's a fluke. You have to back to the 80's for the last time it happened. Very, very unsual.

But wouldn't in turn, those teams getting to the finals because of the 'best player of another team injured' be considered a fluke. Thus the opponent of the finals team winning also then be a fluke?

I think describing the 2019 Warriros as if they are just any other team playing without it's best player is a little disingenuous. This isn't a team without any real hopes like Memphis playing without Ja. The 2019 Warriors had made the finals for the last 4 previous years, they were overwhelming favorites to win again. This was a generational team. It would be like the Jazz finally getting a title in 1998 if Michael Jordan had been hurt. There's not a lot of overwhelming favorites that lost their best player in the playoffs that I can recall. Boston lost Tatum this year, but they weren't on Golden State's level, and they were already down 2-1 and getting blown out in game 4 when it happened.

Sure. You're intentionally narrowing the scope to fit a 'fluke' narrative. It's pretty disingenuous.

[Duffman100]

Raps' title run was as flukey as it gets, maybe in another 10 years it happens again but not immediately.

The Raptors had almost a decade of making the playoffs and being a high seed. They kept running into Lebron James.

We just needed one player that can lift the whole team, and get a bucket when needed. Kawhi was that guy.

The team had:

Kyle Lowry: 6× NBA All-Star (2015–2020), All-NBA Third Team (2016)

Marc Gasol: 3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017), All-NBA First Team (2015), All-NBA Second Team (2013), NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2013), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)

Pascal Siakam: NBA Most Improved Player (2019) Future 2× NBA All-Star (2020, 2023), All-NBA Second Team (2020), All-NBA Third Team (2022)

Danny Green: NBA Champion (2014), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017)

Serge Ibaka: 3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2014)

Fred VanVleet: NBA Champion (2019), NBA All-Star (2022)


Not to forget: OG and Norm Powell.

That's really, really not a fluke.

I would say the only fluke/lucky thing was Kawhi being relatively healthy. But aside from that the Raptors were a good team that was just lacking a 1st option. So Kawhi fit in like a glove.

Except when you look at how deep and talented that team was and capable of winning without him. As YP said above, they were a 60 win team without him the next season.

[Effigy]

But wouldn't in turn, those teams getting to the finals because of the 'best player of another team injured' be considered a fluke. Thus the opponent of the finals team winning also then be a fluke?

I think describing the 2019 Warriros as if they are just any other team playing without it's best player is a little disingenuous. This isn't a team without any real hopes like Memphis playing without Ja. The 2019 Warriors had made the finals for the last 4 previous years, they were overwhelming favorites to win again. This was a generational team. It would be like the Jazz finally getting a title in 1998 if Michael Jordan had been hurt. There's not a lot of overwhelming favorites that lost their best player in the playoffs that I can recall. Boston lost Tatum this year, but they weren't on Golden State's level, and they were already down 2-1 and getting blown out in game 4 when it happened.

Sure. You're intentionally narrowing the scope to fit a 'fluke' narrative. It's pretty disingenuous.

I am not surprised you had no comeback to my argument. The Raptors are the Malone/Stockton Jazz. Good team for years, but weren't going to win a title unless something very very lucky happened. And it did. Congratulations, sincerely. It's hard to win titles.

[GiannisAnte34]

Maybe Raps fans are just confused on appropriate value stars can bring back because of how mid Masai has been for years now

[tsherkin]

I think describing the 2019 Warriros as if they are just any other team playing without it's best player is a little disingenuous. This isn't a team without any real hopes like Memphis playing without Ja. The 2019 Warriors had made the finals for the last 4 previous years, they were overwhelming favorites to win again. This was a generational team. It would be like the Jazz finally getting a title in 1998 if Michael Jordan had been hurt. There's not a lot of overwhelming favorites that lost their best player in the playoffs that I can recall. Boston lost Tatum this year, but they weren't on Golden State's level, and they were already down 2-1 and getting blown out in game 4 when it happened.

TBF, Durant wasn't their best player, "just" their leading scorer. He was obviously quite significant, but (speaking to your point), this WAS the same core which won the title without Durant and took Cleveland to 7 the year prior to Durant's arrival (after beating KD's Thunder).

That said, yes, it's considerably different. Without Durant, they still had Steph, Draymond, and Klay for 5 games. And they handled Portland entirely without Durant. Swept them, in fact, with Lillard having a disastrous performance.

And then they were 1-4 in the Finals without Durant, and won the lone game he played, in which he had 11 points in 12 minutes.

They were definitely struggling in that one. The Kawhi/KD matchup would have been very interesting, though. And that definitely would have been a much more tightly contested series had Durant played the whole way.

[zimpy27]

I can't quite figure out the Giannis Raps thing, how is that a better situation than the Bucks after they trade what assets they have?

Barnes+RJ+picks for Giannis


IQ, Dick, BI, Giannis, Poeltl

That's a strong team. IQ is underrated and BI plays like a Middleton clone.

[Duffman100]

I think describing the 2019 Warriros as if they are just any other team playing without it's best player is a little disingenuous. This isn't a team without any real hopes like Memphis playing without Ja. The 2019 Warriors had made the finals for the last 4 previous years, they were overwhelming favorites to win again. This was a generational team. It would be like the Jazz finally getting a title in 1998 if Michael Jordan had been hurt. There's not a lot of overwhelming favorites that lost their best player in the playoffs that I can recall. Boston lost Tatum this year, but they weren't on Golden State's level, and they were already down 2-1 and getting blown out in game 4 when it happened.

Sure. You're intentionally narrowing the scope to fit a 'fluke' narrative. It's pretty disingenuous.

I am not surprised you had no comeback to my argument. The Raptors are the Malone/Stockton Jazz. Good team for years, but weren't going to win a title unless something very very lucky happened. And it did. Congratulations, sincerely. It's hard to win titles.

I already made my 'comeback' which shows the complete flaw in your argument, you just chose to ignore it because 'it's not the same'.

Your logic is: Winning title team not facing the best contending team due to injury = fluke.

A contender losing in the 1st round due to it's best player being injured satisfies this statement. The ultimate winner didn't face the best contending team, even if they ultimately faced a fully healthy finals team.

it's the exact same thing, you just don't see it because you don't want to.

[tsherkin]

I can't quite figure out the Giannis Raps thing, how is that a better situation than the Bucks after they trade what assets they have?

Barnes+RJ+picks for Giannis


IQ, Dick, BI, Giannis, Poeltl

That's a strong team. IQ is underrated and BI plays like a Middleton clone.

Mmm. BI is a higher-volume mid-range shooter and better isolation scorer, I think, though we may look to increase his volume from 3.

That team exhibits a lot of defensive issues, though, and I don't think Gradey is really ready to be a starter yet. We also probably don't want to land TOO much driving pressure on BI's shoulders if we want him to play 65 games.

That team wouldn't be materially better than the Bucks this year. They lose a lot of scoring pressure compared to having a guy like Lillard, and probably look more like the defense Milwaukee showed us last year (which was 19th in the league while both Lillard and Giannis played 73 games). And probably wouldn't be a top-6 offense like those Bucks were.

Like, this is good for Toronto, as it represents a material step forward compared to a 30-win season, but I'm struggling to see what Giannis would want to come here for that type of environment.

[Quattro]

It would actually be amusing to watch Phill fans complaining about Embiid flopping and Raptor fans arguing that it was legit contact.

[AbC?]

Masai wants the payoff without laying any of the foundation. He's all about skipping steps since 2020.