How big is the gap between Giannis and Bron?

[RoyceDa59]

Giannis a better rebounder and rim protector.

Prime Bron is better at everything else

[GiannisAnte34]

There’s also no team that faced a weaker group of top level opponents so that factors in. The top 4 teams in no order would have probably been the lakers who got injured to lose to the suns, the clippers who lost kawhi but conveniently beat the jazz before the suns got to face them, the nuggets of jamaal was healthy, who the suns beat, and the nets who had 2 major injuries and the bucks still barely barely beat them.

A guy like hardens best teams had to beat the KD warriors and then almost did it before cp3 got hurt ( I guess cp3’s best team too) The warriors would have smoked the 2021 bucks.

And most of those guys didn’t have healthy hall of fame teammates or prime hall of fame teammates or had to beat the heatles or 73 win warriors (Westbrook with KD), teams that would easily beat the bucks. Having an injured guy cheer you on in street clothes doesn’t help much.

Harden has had better teammates than Giannis his entire career so does he have a built in excuse for every season?

Failed with Embiid who is arguably a better player than him

Failed with Durant and Westbrook

Failed with CP3

Failed with Durant and Kyrie

Where do the excuses stop for Harden?

He was nowhere near his prime his stints in OKC or in Philly.

He had a single post season with Durant and Kyrie, during which both Harden and Irving got injured (you should know, that's the only reason the Bucks beat them) . he had 2 seasons with CP3 during which he faced the KD warriors

Really not that complicated or long list of excuses

32 is nowhere near prime? I don’t think so

[nikster]

Harden has had better teammates than Giannis his entire career so does he have a built in excuse for every season?

Failed with Embiid who is arguably a better player than him

Failed with Durant and Westbrook

Failed with CP3

Failed with Durant and Kyrie

Where do the excuses stop for Harden?

He was nowhere near his prime his stints in OKC or in Philly.

He had a single post season with Durant and Kyrie, during which both Harden and Irving got injured (you should know, that's the only reason the Bucks beat them) . he had 2 seasons with CP3 during which he faced the KD warriors

Really not that complicated or long list of excuses

32 is nowhere near prime? I don’t think so

After injuries changed how he can play? Absolutely. If you look at Harden that year he is clearly not the same player he was in his prime.

[TheGeneral99]

Giannis is a better rebounder and may have a slight edge in the paint but Lebron has the edge over Giannis at every other facet of the game, he's a more dynamic scorer, a better facilitator, a better ball handler, and they are about even defensively.

[nikster]

As ring whore, Lebron beat a 73-9 Warriors team. I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Here is reality:

Lebron has 4 rings.
Giannis has 1 ring.

Lebron beat a 73-9 team in the finals.
Giannis lost to a 8th seed.

Lebron is better than Giannis in nearly every aspect of basketball and is ahead in nearly every category. Those are facts.

Let's not pretend like Lebron didnt have a superteam to beat the homegrown Warriors who lost their starting Center when up 3-1. And lets also pretend like Giannis didnt get hurt in Game 1 and missed most to an 8th seed that went to the finals.

Anyways, Lebron is no doubt better than Giannis. I just think Giannis would also have 4 rings if he went Lebron's route by going from superteam to superteam.

Starting center Bogut avg. 13mins over the first 4gms.

And Kevin Love, the supposed 3rd star that makes Cleveland a super team, missed the first win with a concussion and averaged 6 points on 29.4 fg% in 25 minutes a game the other 3 wins. Somehow Bogut is more relevant to bring up

[CharityStripe34]

Giannis, Jokic, Dirk, KD, KG etc

above these guys you have

Steph, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Shaq etc

then you have the 3

Kareem, LeBron, Jordan

This is the correct and fair answer.

Giannis and Jokic have a chance to climb into that second tier as they're both still in their primes and will rack up 3-4 more 1st Team All-NBA nods and Top 4 MVP finishes.

[DOT]

Giannis is basically what you'd have if LeBron never left Cleveland and also never developed his jumper/post game.

[pipfan]

MJ/LBJ
KAJ/Duncan/Shaq/Wilt/Russell
Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Curry/Kobe/Jokic
I think Giannis enters this last tier by the time he retires

[TheNG]

One of them earned a respected title.

[tsherkin]

Giannis is basically what you'd have if LeBron never left Cleveland and also never developed his jumper/post game.

Que? Giannis' post game is fine. He was like 5th in the league in post isos last year, rocking 1 PPP on them, which is very good. He has spins, and fadeaways, works both sides. He can back down, face up. Finishes sometimes with the left hand. Low/mid/high action. Pump fakes, up-and-unders, has a good hard dribble into the paint. About the only thing he DOESN'T do is skyhook.

His post game is there. Before 2025, sure, not much of a middie, and he certainly can't hit the 3... or FTs. But yeah, he can post just fine.

[CharityStripe34]

Giannis is basically what you'd have if LeBron never left Cleveland and also never developed his jumper/post game.

I think his post-game and mid-range jumper have improved in the last 2-3 seasons, as has his decision making. He's drawing way fewer charges and slowly adapting his game. But, yes, LeBron historically is a more dynamic offensive player and basically an orchestrator unto himself, whereas Giannis is simply a very good passing F.

[MMyhre]

I would put LeBron on the Jordan/Kareem GOAT tier and Giannis on the Barkley/DWade All Time Great tier based on your tiers, so one tier. You may have intentionally done this, but Kobe really broadens this tier, so I can see the argument for Giannis sneaking in the same tier.

I think it's possible to have a different tier structure, with Jordan/Kareem/LeBron/arguably others as one tier, then Kobe/Magic/Shaq/Duncan/Kobe etc just a step lower, then Barkley/etc below that. Then I think it becomes a harder discussion of whether Giannis makes the basically lower auxilliary GOATs tier or the tier below that. I'd still probably put him at one tier, but I could see the argument for two.

Wasn’t on purpose.. was thinking most people have Kobe as top tier all time. Top 10. But what you’re saying is definitely valid, just not an intentional play on my part.

Kobe is not in a different tier than peak Wade or Barkley though, thats his point. Career, sure, because Wade got injured and Barkley idk, but peak? Nah, Wade is even ranked above Kobe in RealGM peaks.

[Cavsfansince84]

Yes, im also accounting for losing in the finals with a prime Wade/Bosh in 2011 and then with a decent Wade and prime Bosh in 2014

Decent Wade put up 15/4/3 on 50% ts. Pirme Bosh put up 14/5/1. I mean there's context there but Wade was not only battling injuries but also fatigue from all the playoff runs as was Bosh. I think LeBron could have done more in the 14 finals but the Spurs were playing at too high of a level. No player coming off of 3 straight finals was going to get them the win. MJ quit after 3 straight saying he was burnt out. You can't just insert random player x into LeBron's situation without taking all of that into account.

[Woodsanity]

Not even a comparison.

Peak Lebron is the most dominant player of the last 40 years. Even over Shaq, who was a liability down the stretch. And Jordan couldn't guard 1 through 5 either. Lebron at his peak was like 3 superstars rolled into one. That was his level of impact.

Giannis is great but he can't even make it out of the East. Jokic of the East.

Both won rings without changing teams. What are you even yapping about?

[PistolPeteJR]

You give Giannis the same supporting cast Lebron has had and I honestly think he wins just as many rings if not more.

Lebron is still the better overall player but the gap isnt as big as it would seem.

If anything, give Lebron Giannis' support cast and he would have stay in the Bucks and won 3+ championships.

What supporting cast? His best teammate has been Middleton.

That would be like Lebron 8th best player he's played with haha

First 7 seasons as the leader of the team

LeBron's best teammates (03/04-09/10): Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, Wally Szczerbiak, Donyell Marshall, Delonte West, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Daniel Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic, Anderson Varejao.

Giannis' best teammates: (15/16-22/23): Khris Middleton, Damian Lillard, Jrue Holiday, Brook Lopez, Malcolm Brogdon, Eric Bledsoe, Bobby Portis, John Henson, Greg Monroe, Brandon Knight.

--

Please don't bring up washed Shaq or Ben, the same way I won't bring up DeMarcus Cousins in MIL.

Yeah, I'll take the latter supporting cast over the former any day of the week.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

My Tiers:

Tier 1

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem

Tier 2

4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Curry
11. Shaq
12. Kobe

Tier 3

13. Jokic
14. Moses Malone
15. Oscar Robertson
16. Jerry West
17. Dr. J
18. Giannis
19. KD
20. Dirk
21. KG

Tier 4

22. Dwayne Wade
23. Kawhi
24. Elgin Baylor
25. Malone
26. Harden
27. Barkley
28. CP3
29. David Robinson

Tier 5

30. Havlicek
31. Rick Barry
32. Steve Nash
33. Ewing
34. Walt Frazier
35. Jason Kidd
36. Stockton
37. SGA
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Willis Reed
41. Clyde Drexler
42. Gary Payton
43. Mikan
44. Bob Cousy

Tier 6

45. Bob Pettit
46. Reggie Miller
47. Ray Allen
48. Paul Pierce
49. Tatum
50. Luka

I think you pretty much nailed it. Nit-picking I would slide Kobe to Tier 3 because if he had Giannis's teammates... well Kobe wouldnt have been Kobe. But 12-21 is basically an argument over eras or individual vs team success with no concrete answer.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

If anything, give Lebron Giannis' support cast and he would have stay in the Bucks and won 3+ championships.

What supporting cast? His best teammate has been Middleton.

That would be like Lebron 8th best player he's played with haha

First 7 seasons as the leader of the team

LeBron's best teammates (03/04-09/10): Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, Wally Szczerbiak, Donyell Marshall, Delonte West, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Daniel Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic, Anderson Varejao.

Giannis' best teammates: (15/16-22/23): Khris Middleton, Damian Lillard, Jrue Holiday, Brook Lopez, Malcolm Brogdon, Eric Bledsoe, Bobby Portis, John Henson, Greg Monroe, Brandon Knight.

--

Please don't bring up washed Shaq or Ben, the same way I won't bring up DeMarcus Cousins in MIL.

Yeah, I'll take the latter supporting cast over the former any day of the week.

But Giannis got a ring.....
(Sarcastic since there is a lot of luck in injuries/opponents to get a ring)

[Tor_Raps]

As ring whore, Lebron beat a 73-9 Warriors team. I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Here is reality:

Lebron has 4 rings.
Giannis has 1 ring.

Lebron beat a 73-9 team in the finals.
Giannis lost to a 8th seed.

Lebron is better than Giannis in nearly every aspect of basketball and is ahead in nearly every category. Those are facts.

Let's not pretend like Lebron didnt have a superteam to beat the homegrown Warriors who lost their starting Center when up 3-1. And lets also pretend like Giannis didnt get hurt in Game 1 and missed most to an 8th seed that went to the finals.

Anyways, Lebron is no doubt better than Giannis. I just think Giannis would also have 4 rings if he went Lebron's route by going from superteam to superteam.

Starting center Bogut avg. 13mins over the first 4gms.

And boy were those 13 minutes impactful lol.

[NZB2323]

My Tiers:

Tier 1

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem

Tier 2

4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Curry
11. Shaq
12. Kobe

Tier 3

13. Jokic
14. Moses Malone
15. Oscar Robertson
16. Jerry West
17. Dr. J
18. Giannis
19. KD
20. Dirk
21. KG

Tier 4

22. Dwayne Wade
23. Kawhi
24. Elgin Baylor
25. Malone
26. Harden
27. Barkley
28. CP3
29. David Robinson

Tier 5

30. Havlicek
31. Rick Barry
32. Steve Nash
33. Ewing
34. Walt Frazier
35. Jason Kidd
36. Stockton
37. SGA
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Willis Reed
41. Clyde Drexler
42. Gary Payton
43. Mikan
44. Bob Cousy

Tier 6

45. Bob Pettit
46. Reggie Miller
47. Ray Allen
48. Paul Pierce
49. Tatum
50. Luka

I think you pretty much nailed it. Nit-picking I would slide Kobe to Tier 3 because if he had Giannis's teammates... well Kobe wouldnt have been Kobe. But 12-21 is basically an argument over eras or individual vs team success with no concrete answer.

Kobe has way more longevity than Giannis, and has been healthier in the playoffs.

Giannis didn’t have the best supporting cast, but they also won playoff games without him. I’ll take Giannis’s Finals over any Kobe Finals but I’ll take Kobe’s career over Giannis’s.

[RHODEY]

I say they are on the same level Lebron the better shooter, Giannis better defense , Equally athletic...Giannis gets the huge nod in competitiveness and leadership though , so I give it to him.