How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[bonita_the_frog]

Bird wasn't remotely an elite defender. Solid for sure, but he had huge weaknesses and mchale would almost always have to guard anyone with elite foot speed at the 3 or 4 while they moved bird off those guys. Bird and Jokic actually play defensive very similarly.

But Bird was an elite 2-way player, meaning he was a 2-way player and he was elite (known for winning MVPs).
Whereas Jokic is an elite player, but not an elite 2-way player.

Bird was 3-time All-Defensive, which Jokic has no hope of ever being, even if we list Jokic as a Forward, he'd never make an All-Defensive Team.
And Bird wasn't just a smart defender, he hustled WAY more on Defense than Jokic, and Bird had quick reflexes.

Why is Bird a two way player and Jokic isn't? Jokic consistently grades out as a top quartile defender in the league.

And why do you think Jokic doesn't hustle on defense? And how does bird have faster hands that Jokic? Jokic is showing up in the top 5 in steals and deflections...he's got the best hands for someone his size in NBA history.

If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book.

And its hard to imagine Jokic being worthy of an All-Defensive team, and I should note they don't have positions anymore in All-Defensive teams.
Even without position restrictions, Jokic is not an All-Defensive teamer.

I didn't say Bird had quicker reflexes than Jokic, I was just listing reasons why Bird was an All-Defensive defender, and reflexes was just one reason (but reflexes alone are never enough to be a great defender, or else Iverson would be).

Bird is known for hustling and diving out-of-bounds for loose balls, and he was known for being a rugged on-ball defender, and he didn't slacken off and didn't take defensive possessions off.

My Dad's a basketball coach so I've probably watched more Larry Bird games than I've seen today's players...

[DimesandKnicks]

Any RAPM metric has it's issues. And I think it's fair to say something like. "Jokic is a very good defender overall with obvious flaws that can be attacked". And from there we can discuss how to value that in the playoffs.

We know flat out he doesn't deter shot attempts against him. Guys generally doesn't shoot much worse against him either. But he also deflects a lot of balls. He makes it hard to get the ball where you want. He rotates extremely well. He's just a big body that makes getting past him hard. While this is both good and bad. He doesn't foul which yes gives up easy points but also prevents easy points. And 100% he's reliant on teammates to do their job as he can't cover up their mistakes in space like better defender can.

As I've generally said. The metrics would argue he's a very good defender. But his weaknesses and limitations likely make him average at best. If you want to argue slight below or above, go for it. Either can be supported.

A bad defender? I don't see the case anymore. A few years ago, maybe.

No other NBA center would be considered a very good defender if this was his scouting report

There’s no one like Jokic defensively. He’s definitely well below average at the thing that’s the main responsibility for most centers, but he’s also the best in the league at several other things. Best hands in the league, consistently gets more steals and deflections than any other center. Coach on the floor who probably does more to position his teammates than any other player. One of the very best defensive rebounders in the league. Excellent at avoiding fouls. And also, his turnover suppression on offense really limits the other team’s transition opportunities.

The net effect is that he’s been a huge boon to the Nuggets’ defense. His defensive on/off has been in the top quartile of the league 8 out of 10 seasons with him ranking in the 92nd percentile or higher in 3 of those seasons. The entire roster has turned over that period. He’s played with vastly different teammates. And yet he consistently makes the defense much better on an incredibly consistent basis. There’s too much signal there for it to just be noise.

When we start listing limiting turnovers to highlight someone’s defensive impacts we start entering the abstract

[Special_Puppy]

Longevity mostly

[dhsilv2]

But Bird was an elite 2-way player, meaning he was a 2-way player and he was elite (known for winning MVPs).
Whereas Jokic is an elite player, but not an elite 2-way player.

Bird was 3-time All-Defensive, which Jokic has no hope of ever being, even if we list Jokic as a Forward, he'd never make an All-Defensive Team.
And Bird wasn't just a smart defender, he hustled WAY more on Defense than Jokic, and Bird had quick reflexes.

Why is Bird a two way player and Jokic isn't? Jokic consistently grades out as a top quartile defender in the league.

And why do you think Jokic doesn't hustle on defense? And how does bird have faster hands that Jokic? Jokic is showing up in the top 5 in steals and deflections...he's got the best hands for someone his size in NBA history.

If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book.

And its hard to imagine Jokic being worthy of an All-Defensive team, and I should note they don't have positions anymore in All-Defensive teams.
Even without position restrictions, Jokic is not an All-Defensive teamer.

I didn't say Bird had quicker reflexes than Jokic, I was just listing reasons why Bird was an All-Defensive defender, and reflexes was just one reason (but reflexes alone are never enough to be a great defender, or else Iverson would be).

Bird is known for hustling and diving out-of-bounds for loose balls (something the elite scorers don't do much today), and he was known for being a rugged on-ball defender, and simply the fact he didn't slacken off and did take defensive possessions off.

My Dad's a basketball coach so I've probably watched more of Larry Bird game than I've seen today's players...

Making all defensive team doesn't mean much. Funny enough, to your point. Iverson three different times received votes by these same idiots for DPOY despite being a flat out bad defender. The writers are trash when it comes to their defensive voting. Are you going to claim Vlade wasn't an elite defender because he never got on those teams?

Meanwhile the writers may not be required to vote on positions, but they are still very clearly not voting for all the big men. They aren't picking the 10 best defenders even today.

As for Bird, he wasn't a good on ball defender. You can call him rugged or whatever. He wasn't good at it and his teams had to hide him from better players because of it. Wing defender's primary job is supposed to be their ability to guard their man while big men are supposed to guard the rim. Jokic and Bird suck at those two tasks. They make up for it with their other traits. Now I'll grant you Jokic doesn't go to the floor as much as Bird did...but that's because he's 50 pounds heavier and that would risk serious injury. Lets keep our big men off the floor!

[dhsilv2]

No other NBA center would be considered a very good defender if this was his scouting report

There’s no one like Jokic defensively. He’s definitely well below average at the thing that’s the main responsibility for most centers, but he’s also the best in the league at several other things. Best hands in the league, consistently gets more steals and deflections than any other center. Coach on the floor who probably does more to position his teammates than any other player. One of the very best defensive rebounders in the league. Excellent at avoiding fouls. And also, his turnover suppression on offense really limits the other team’s transition opportunities.

The net effect is that he’s been a huge boon to the Nuggets’ defense. His defensive on/off has been in the top quartile of the league 8 out of 10 seasons with him ranking in the 92nd percentile or higher in 3 of those seasons. The entire roster has turned over that period. He’s played with vastly different teammates. And yet he consistently makes the defense much better on an incredibly consistent basis. There’s too much signal there for it to just be noise.

When we start listening to limiting turnovers to highlight someone’s defensive impacts we start entering the abstract

And yet, we went back and fourth for a week on this topic and you couldn't quantify any of your issues with Jokic's defense. Your arguments are just as abstract.

As Iggy clearly point out. We have enough data to state that beyond a shadow of doubt, Jokic's defense makes his team's overall defense better. This isn't a debatable fact, the data sets are too large and too robust with him.

[Top10alltime]

How are you just assuming people aren't?

I've seen too many haters, the longevity doesn't matter at this point he's already having a top 5 5-year stretch in NBA history. I wonder why the Jokic stans aren't here to defend this take at this point...

Jokic is not only a top 10 scorer and a top 10 playmaker all-time (top 6-7 offensively), but he's also a top tier off-ball player (top 5 arguable), and he's an ATG on-ball player. It's amazing how much impact Joker has offensively. He's a 55% mid-range shooter, and all-time at this point, as well as being all-time top 3 offensive rebounder ever. At this point, he may as well surpass Magic and Nash on offense.

Jokic is also a + defender. No matter how many people talk about his mid rim protection, he has had a -5.2 rim FG diff in 2025, a -4.4% in 2024, and a -9.9 in 2023, in the playoffs. It's clear, that he's anywhere from a mid positive to strong positive.

So with a GOAT level offensive player and a mid positive defensive player, how come he's not top 15? He is probably #12 on my list today, I could be swayed to put him in my top 10, over Magic and KG, maybe surpassing Curry.

At the end of this man's career, he will be a top 5 player all-time.

[Peregrine01]

I've said for a while now that Jokic can play a reasonable fascimile of Marc Gasol's defense when he's fully engaged. His defense has looked awful at times in last year's regular season and I think his insane offensive load played a part in that. He turned it around in the playoffs and the Nuggets defense during the playoffs was very solid, holding both the Clips and Thunder offenses well below their regular season levels.

Let's see how his defense looks in the regular season this year with a little more roster help.

[bonita_the_frog]

Why is Bird a two way player and Jokic isn't? Jokic consistently grades out as a top quartile defender in the league.

And why do you think Jokic doesn't hustle on defense? And how does bird have faster hands that Jokic? Jokic is showing up in the top 5 in steals and deflections...he's got the best hands for someone his size in NBA history.

If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book.

And its hard to imagine Jokic being worthy of an All-Defensive team, and I should note they don't have positions anymore in All-Defensive teams.
Even without position restrictions, Jokic is not an All-Defensive teamer.

I didn't say Bird had quicker reflexes than Jokic, I was just listing reasons why Bird was an All-Defensive defender, and reflexes was just one reason (but reflexes alone are never enough to be a great defender, or else Iverson would be).

Bird is known for hustling and diving out-of-bounds for loose balls (something the elite scorers don't do much today), and he was known for being a rugged on-ball defender, and simply the fact he didn't slacken off and did take defensive possessions off.

My Dad's a basketball coach so I've probably watched more of Larry Bird game than I've seen today's players...

Making all defensive team doesn't mean much. Funny enough, to your point. Iverson three different times received votes by these same idiots for DPOY despite being a flat out bad defender. The writers are trash when it comes to their defensive voting. Are you going to claim Vlade wasn't an elite defender because he never got on those teams?

I specifically said "If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book".

There might be 30 or 40 players who are worthy of making the All-Defensive teams, and if they are also among the better offensive players then they'll be "2-way players".

So there should be a lot of "2-way players", but how many of them are ELITE 2-way players? Not many, but Bird is a 3-time MVP, so he's both a 2-way player and he's elite, so he's an "elite 2-way player" and so is Wade.

[dhsilv2]

If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book.

And its hard to imagine Jokic being worthy of an All-Defensive team, and I should note they don't have positions anymore in All-Defensive teams.
Even without position restrictions, Jokic is not an All-Defensive teamer.

I didn't say Bird had quicker reflexes than Jokic, I was just listing reasons why Bird was an All-Defensive defender, and reflexes was just one reason (but reflexes alone are never enough to be a great defender, or else Iverson would be).

Bird is known for hustling and diving out-of-bounds for loose balls (something the elite scorers don't do much today), and he was known for being a rugged on-ball defender, and simply the fact he didn't slacken off and did take defensive possessions off.

My Dad's a basketball coach so I've probably watched more of Larry Bird game than I've seen today's players...

Making all defensive team doesn't mean much. Funny enough, to your point. Iverson three different times received votes by these same idiots for DPOY despite being a flat out bad defender. The writers are trash when it comes to their defensive voting. Are you going to claim Vlade wasn't an elite defender because he never got on those teams?

I specifically said "If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book".
There might be 30 or 40 players who are worthy of making the All-Defensive teams, and if they are also among the better offensive players then they'll be "2-way players".

Using XRAPM's defensive percentiles

2016 - 96th
2017 - 93rd
2018 - 87th
2019 - 92nd
2020 - 68th
2021 - 93rd
2022 - 93rd
2023 - 96th
2024 - 97th

Given there are about 450 legit player in the league at any given time. Anyone in the top 10% would be in that 40ish group. So we can wrap this up. Jokic meets your definition.

[Fantastik_Goat]

Wow that’s interesting- so LeBron is a better scorer not only in longevity but per game

Actually KAJ still has more made buckets.

I find it odd how this forum wants to talk about the playoffs as being all that matters...until it doesn't work. But yes Kareem had more regular season made field goals. Lebron has more playoff and regular season combined ones.

It’s because in the 70’s there were less rounds in the playoffs and the higher seeds got byes in the first round so they played less games. LeBron has made .3 more baskets per playoff game than Kareem. Also Kareem played a lot more playoff games than LeBron at the end of his career when he was making less shots bringing down his per game average.

[Top10alltime]

Actually KAJ still has more made buckets.

I find it odd how this forum wants to talk about the playoffs as being all that matters...until it doesn't work. But yes Kareem had more regular season made field goals. Lebron has more playoff and regular season combined ones.

It’s because in the 70’s there were less rounds in the playoffs and the higher seeds got byes in the first round so they played less games. LeBron has made .3 more baskets per playoff game than Kareem. Also Kareem played a lot more playoff games than LeBron at the end of his career when he was making less shots bringing down his per game average.

Stop derailing this thread into a Lebron vs Kareem thread. This is a thread about how Jokic is easily top 15, not a thread about whatever you want. If you want to, make your own thread.

[dhsilv2]

Actually KAJ still has more made buckets.

I find it odd how this forum wants to talk about the playoffs as being all that matters...until it doesn't work. But yes Kareem had more regular season made field goals. Lebron has more playoff and regular season combined ones.

It’s because in the 70’s there were less rounds in the playoffs and the higher seeds got byes in the first round so they played less games. LeBron has made .3 more baskets per playoff game than Kareem. Also Kareem played a lot more playoff games than LeBron at the end of his career when he was making less shots bringing down his per game average.

It's also because he missed the playoffs back to back years in his prime while lebron was going to finals. Lebron also has played less regular season games because of the added wear and tear of those longer playoff runs. And do we want to talk about how much faster the pace was for Kareem?

[NZB2323]

I have him 13th and I assume he’ll move up my list, but it’s not crazy to have Oscar Robertson, Dr. J, and/or Moses Malone ahead of him for now.

[iggymcfrack]

I have him 13th and I assume he’ll move up my list, but it’s not crazy to have Oscar Robertson, Dr. J, and/or Moses Malone ahead of him for now.

Yes, having Moses Malone ahead of Jokic is absolutely crazy. He only had one season his entire career where he had a higher BPM than Jokic had as a rookie. Even Moses’ claim to fame, the 3 undeserved MVPs is clearly trumped by Jokic who won 3 MVPs that should have been 4.

[Fantastik_Goat]

I find it odd how this forum wants to talk about the playoffs as being all that matters...until it doesn't work. But yes Kareem had more regular season made field goals. Lebron has more playoff and regular season combined ones.

It’s because in the 70’s there were less rounds in the playoffs and the higher seeds got byes in the first round so they played less games. LeBron has made .3 more baskets per playoff game than Kareem. Also Kareem played a lot more playoff games than LeBron at the end of his career when he was making less shots bringing down his per game average.

Stop derailing this thread into a Lebron vs Kareem thread. This is a thread about how Jokic is easily top 15, not a thread about whatever you want. If you want to, make your own thread.

No. I was just commenting on a post in this threads making the absurd argument that LBJ was on a different tier than KAJ because of longevity. If you want to talk about why Jokic isn’t in some people’s top 15 it’s because he’s a defensive liability as a center and he doesn’t win enough games.

[MrGoat]

Lack of playoff success. His title run was the weakest one in the last 4 decades. Last year's Clippers had the best record of any team his Nuggets had knocked off so far. So far, elite teams always beat him.

[Rubios]

Lack of playoff success. His title run was the weakest one in the last 4 decades. Last year's Clippers had the best record of any team his Nuggets had knocked off so far. So far, elite teams always beat him.

Literally: him. Since the 2023 run, Jamal and MPJ have been subpar.

A topic not yet discussed is him being the only MVP since I was born without an All Star or All NBA team mate.

[Rubios]

*Or All Defensive, either

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

He's obviously Top 20. Top 15? Meh, it's a YMMV convo. Do you value peak or longevity? Do you value rings or individual success? Do you value eye pleasing basketball or results (like Shaq/Giannis)? It's hard to put him in the top 12 right now with only 1 ring and limited longevity stats, but I have no issue anywhere 13-20.

[Johnny Bball]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Claiming Bird was an "elite" defender is ludicrous.

Pre or post back problems? Because for one of them I don't think it is.