The Shareef Abdur-Rahim Award; Empty Stats/Fake Stars

[Yoshun]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim has the lowest career plus-minus, at -2904
https://www.statmuse.com/e/m/FTf9uHtkU

Anyone who played on those Vancouver teams for that long would have a God awful plus-minus.

That's the problem with all of this. Most of these guys were/are above average to good NBA players who played on awful teams. They're playing out of their role and being asked to lead teams when they shouldn't be. Shareef would have been a very good 3rd option on a championship team.

[Infinite Llamas]

If you’re going to mock a dude, at least spell his name right.

Shareef was a fine player actually. I think his game would translate much better today

Career losers don’t need spell checks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jordan Poole won a championship on a good team and look at his career now.
Devin Booker lost a lot then got CP3 and reaches the finals.
Players are losers until they aren’t. Some players just never have that chance to play on good teams, sadly.

[Phish Tank]

Paolo

[Kingdibs19]

Westbrick
Lavine
D. Sabonis
Derozan
Kevin Martin
Mike James
Rudy Gay
Fox
Tyreke Evans
John Salmons
Mitch Richmond
Harrison Barnes
Buddy Hield
Jason Thompson
Corlis Williamson

[cupcakesnake]

There's a big difference between:
1) Volume scorers who don't move the needle in terms of winning.
and
2) Players who had the misfortune of only playing on bad teams.

I don't think most fans can tell the difference. They just say good stats + bad team = empty stats/fake star.

Some of these guys could have played an impactful role on a good team, but simply never (or rarely) got to play on one. Correlation is not always causation!

Shareef had really good shooting touch and decent athleticism. He wasn't a very good decision maker on either end of the court. He never got to play for a good team at all, but there's also not much evidence he moved the needle, not even on offense.

[bkkrh]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim has the lowest career plus-minus, at -2904
https://www.statmuse.com/e/m/FTf9uHtkU

Anyone who played on those Vancouver teams for that long would have a God awful plus-minus.

That's the problem with all of this. Most of these guys were/are above average to good NBA players who played on awful teams. They're playing out of their role and being asked to lead teams when they shouldn't be. Shareef would have been a very good 3rd option on a championship team.

Think he would have also been a solid 2nd option on a deep team. 20 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal & 1 block while shooting 46-48% from the field and over 80% from the FT line. That´s pretty much on par or at least not that far behind what players like Chris Webber, Derrick Coleman, Vin Baker, or Elton Brand were putting up for most of their peak and all of them were at one point considered as future franchise players.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Hardaway was young at that time. It’s understandable the team hasn’t yet peaked. But Golden State wanted Billy Owens and the rest is history.

Richmond had zero weaknesses on offense. His only flaw was playing on trash Sacramento teams during his prime where his best teammates were Spud Webb, Tisdale or Brian Grant at any given time. The fact he led one of those teams to the playoffs is a testament to his value.
He could have easily one a couple rings if you slot him into the Dumars role on those Pistons teams or put him next to Hakeem on those Rockets teams. I just don’t think people realize how godforsaken those Kings teams were.

Puhleeze. He had peak Mullin who was a top 5 SF for 3 seasons, and Hardaway was a all star in his 2nd season. Hardaway and Mullin missed no significant time during that span so injuries were not an excuse. With that much talent they should've been much better than a .500 team.

How does Richmonds career look any different from much of Bradley Beals in Washington who was getting criticized for putting up big numbers on teams headed nowhere?

But because MJ gave him his flowers he was suddenly elevated.

[Thaddy]

SAR played with absolute crap. He was a Bosh level player. Using BPM for him isn't right. I grew up watching him play. He wasn't the most talented but he never complained like Francis and despite several losing years he showed a **** ton of heart.

Heart matters.

Sometimes it matters more than talent.

[kodo]

Unfortunate because I really like him, but Lauri Markkanen will be up for this award in the future.

[og15]

He is on the same level as Pau Gasol. A solid #2 who never got to play with an MVP caliber teammate.

When he was in VAN and ATL he was just as good as Bosh or Otis Thorp.

Gasol make the playoffs 3 time in a row as first option with Memphis.....

Yea, not the best comparison for many reasons. Not going to fault Shareef for Vancouver, though again, if he was a higher impact player, they still win a bit more. In 01-02 and 02-03, 42 wins was the entry point into the playoffs in the East.

SAR played with absolute crap. He was a Bosh level player. Using BPM for him isn't right. I grew up watching him play. He wasn't the most talented but he never complained like Francis and despite several losing years he showed a **** ton of heart.

Heart matters.

Sometimes it matters more than talent.

SAR was fine, but he clearly wasn't a star impact player either, though he was capable of putting up numbers that looked star like.

[LAvision]

No Corey maguette mention yet?

[Mirotic12]

He is on the same level as Pau Gasol. A solid #2 who never got to play with an MVP caliber teammate.

When he was in VAN and ATL he was just as good as Bosh or Otis Thorp.

Who? Abdur- Rahim?

[Infinite Llamas]

Hardaway was young at that time. It’s understandable the team hasn’t yet peaked. But Golden State wanted Billy Owens and the rest is history.

Richmond had zero weaknesses on offense. His only flaw was playing on trash Sacramento teams during his prime where his best teammates were Spud Webb, Tisdale or Brian Grant at any given time. The fact he led one of those teams to the playoffs is a testament to his value.
He could have easily one a couple rings if you slot him into the Dumars role on those Pistons teams or put him next to Hakeem on those Rockets teams. I just don’t think people realize how godforsaken those Kings teams were.

Puhleeze. He had peak Mullin who was a top 5 SF for 3 seasons, and Hardaway was a all star in his 2nd season. Hardaway and Mullin missed no significant time during that span so injuries were not an excuse. With that much talent they should've been much better than a .500 team.

How does Richmonds career look any different from much of Bradley Beals in Washington who was getting criticized for putting up big numbers on teams headed nowhere?

But because MJ gave him his flowers he was suddenly elevated.

Those GSW teams were imbalanced too. Starting dudes like Alton Lister/Jim Peterson/Uwe Blab at center. They had precious little talent outside of those three players. I get they wanted to use Owens as some point center to try and get bigger…but Richmond wasn’t why those teams struggled.

Richmond at his peak was a top-15/20 MVP guy despite his trash teams.

[Hugi Mancura]

Who is empty stats type of player? Because most of your career players don't decide where they play unless they take huge pay cuts. So players success depends on the success of their teams front office. Only a handful of players can turn a lousy team to a winning team. Jokic, Giannis, prime Lebron and SGA, and thats pretty much it. Even if you put any of them in current Brooklyn or Washington those teams wouldn't make playoffs. So does that mean every other NBA player is an empty stat player if they play whole their career in bad teams?

Or could we somehow separate these players? Lavine is maybe a good example. Most of his career his on/off stats have been below teams average, even in bad teams. So he maybe qualifies? Markkanen? In Utah this year his team is 13 points lousier when he is sitting compared to playing, but his team is so bad that even when he is playing it doesn't win games. His good numbers don't help team win, but what should he do? Ability for players to decide where they play is very limited unless you are a superstar, specially now when free agency is pretty much dead. Off course is you are willing to play vet minimum then you can play every where you want, but who is the world is willing to take 40M$ pay cut? Nobody.

[tmorgan]

Since most stats are from offense, and most of the folks getting mentioned are indifferent defenders, it seems to me that the moniker “empty stats player” is most often just a euphemism for “doesn’t care about defense”. True?

[og15]

Since most stats are from offense, and most of the folks getting mentioned are indifferent defenders, it seems to me that the moniker “empty stats player” is most often just a euphemism for “doesn’t care about defense”. True?

Some of the guys care and just suck at it or don't have the tools for it, especially if they are putting a lot into offense. It's usually guys who aren't offensive needle movers but can put up scoring stats, and have below average defense that get mentioned.

[LockoutSeason]

Hard to argue against Zach LaVine.

Every team he leaves gets better. Every team he joins gets worse. Only 1 playoff appearance in his career (first round gentlemen’s sweep vs. Bucks)

[Marvin Martian]

I don't know why Lavine is posted here. Dude is currently putting up damn near a 50 40 90 season. The best player he has ever played with is...Sabonis?

If he had a better contract, he wouldn't be in SAC

[7seventynine9]

Anyone mention Tracy McGrady yet? He got out of the first round once as a scrub for the 2013 Spurs.

[og15]

Anyone mention Tracy McGrady yet? He got out of the first round once as a scrub for the 2013 Spurs.

While TMac had struggles getting out of the first round, TMac stats positively influenced his teams ability to win games and he helped his teams get to the playoffs more than once, so an empty stats argument doesn't make much sense.