Can we admit the obvious yet? Jokic is the greatest offensive player ever

[Tor_Raps]

Today I learned that a playoff run of 30/14/10 on 55% FG%, 45% 3P% is not "elite offensive results".

Find me 10 better playoff runs that make this not "elite playoff offensive results"...

You can't really get upset at people wanting Jokic to lead his team to the NBA Finals 4-6 times like other all-time greats. He doesn't even have to win a bunch of chips. People just want to see that greatness play out over years on the biggest stage.

2023 was awesome. No one is denying that. But there are some greats who have 6-7 years of four rounds of playoffs, where the competition gets harder and the attrition becomes a factor.

This is not asking much here.

It is asking much when you consider he has never played with another All-Star/All-NBA player in his career. Basketball is a team sport. How many other all-time greats had as little help as Jokic has had in his career?

Imagine being a Lebron Stan and not realizing how little help Jokic has had for majority of his career lol.

[Tor_Raps]

I agree... he still has a ways to go to be known as a better overall player than Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem in their careers but he'll be their category once he retires.

Top 15 player of all time with a chance to be top 10/5ish if he wins a few more titles. Sadly a lot of that will depend on his supporting cast more than him.

[Duke4life831]

I’ve been making this argument for years.

He’s literally the only guy that you can make an argument that he just doesn’t have a flaw on offense, he’s practically elite at every aspect on offense.

Top 5 facilitator of all time.
Best back to the basket/low post game of his generation
Elite mid range game
Been a 38% 3pt shooter since he’s entered his prime and 39% career in the playoffs
He’s elite at creating his own shot or others
He’s also elite when it comes to high volume scoring while being efficient. He’s led the league in TS% before and is in the top practical 5-10 every year and the majority of the guys in the top 10 are low volume centers.

Where is the flaw? Put him in any spot on the court and in any situation, he’s elite

[Mephariel]

I think I will go as far as to say, he is best offensive player in this era of basketball. But I don't think he would be the best in the 90s or early 2000s.

[Ito]

Not that simple you just looking at numbers.. he would still have to dominate the actual games and be favored to win it all every season like a MJ.. like a Shaq like a LeBron going to the finals every year.. he’s just playing well and putting up the numbers but he’s not that

Funny you bring up Shaq. He was swept 6 times in his career. He also played with 2 of top 5 SGs to every play the game to get his rings

Yeah, like a Shaq.. he’s not that .. I wanted to edit my post and say he has been playing really well besides just playing well and but he’s not there yet .. he’s just a really good versatile big and puts up the numbers and I like him as a player but he’s not clearly a favorite to win it all every season at least not without any other inconveniences happening else where if you understand what I mean

[druggas]

Why hasn’t he had elite playoff offensive results?

This is disappointing from you OP. Spend all day defending LeBron and then just give up and impromptu admit Jokic is better offensively because he puts up some nice box score numbers? What happened to your passion?

I call it like it is brother. I'm a straight shooter who only deals in facts. LeBron is obviously still the GOAT, but Jokic is the offensive GOAT and will be a GOAT candidate when all is said and done.

Your shot is off.

[therealbig3]

I think he fills the stat sheet like no other, but I think prime LeBron is clearly superior offensively. He led better playoff offenses and he can also just do more offensively, mainly in terms of his ball handling and passing on the move. His slashing and ability to generate gravity with the ball in his hands from the perimeter give him more options as an offensive weapon than Jokic. Jokic especially in the playoffs does rely on his guards to take and make a lot of tough shots late in the clock because as a center, he’s a lot more limited in terms of creating something from the perimeter. Not his fault, but that’s clearly a big advantage that LeBron has over him. And it’s why I think LeBron led historically better playoff offenses on a consistent basis.

[dk1115]

I dub Jokic the great white hope.

Do you have anything useful to add?

I acknowledge that you've posted. Good job.

[JinKaz69]

I think I will go as far as to say, he is best offensive player in this era of basketball. But I don't think he would be the best in the 90s or early 2000s.

In my opinion 2016 Curry has also an argument as the best offensive player of this era (he was ridiculous that year).
It's very close between him and current Jokic.

[GusT15]

Oh great,this again.

Bear with me,i'll tell you a story.

About 10 years ago Steph Curry and the Warriors emerge into the NBA scene.
Small ball,motion Basketball,tons of 3s.
Other teams 7 footers are unplayable against them.
Many Centers retire before the age of 30.
Their archetype becomes obsolete.
Teams don't draft them,they don't develop them,they waive them faster than ever.

Enter stage,Nikola Jokic.
One of the most talented Big Man ever to play basketball.
And guess what,the league is not ready for him.
Teams can't guard him,playmaking,bully ball inside,shooting,he gets anything he wants offensively.

I'll ask you a simple question.
Put Jokic in the 2000 NBA.
Have him go against Hakeem,Shaq,Robinson,Duncan,Mutombo,Ewing,Wallace,Yao,Mourning,and about 40 other huge bodies teams had assempled to deal with these players.
Is it still so easy for him to do what he's doing?
Is he so efficient?
Does he foul more?
How harder does he get hit,fouled,guarded?

No,it's not obvious.
Maybe it's obvious if you're watching ball for 10 years.
But if you've seen big men dominate this league for decades,no,it's really not obvious at all.

[SlimShady83]

Lebron is Goat
Jokic is the offensive goat

Got it lol.

[guynumber45]

Oh great,this again.

Bear with me,i'll tell you a story.

About 10 years ago Steph Curry and the Warriors emerge into the NBA scene.
Small ball,motion Basketball,tons of 3s.
Other teams 7 footers are unplayable against them.
Many Centers retire before the age of 30.
Their archetype becomes obsolete.
Teams don't draft them,they don't develop them,they waive them faster than ever.

Enter stage,Nikola Jokic.
One of the most talented Big Man ever to play basketball.
And guess what,the league is not ready for him.
Teams can't guard him,playmaking,bully ball inside,shooting,he gets anything he wants offensively.

I'll ask you a simple question.
Put Jokic in the 2000 NBA.
Have him go against Hakeem,Shaq,Robinson,Duncan,Mutombo,Ewing,Wallace,Yao,Mourning,and about 40 other huge bodies teams had assempled to deal with these players.
Is it still so easy for him to do what he's doing?
Is he so efficient?
Does he foul more?
How harder does he get hit,fouled,guarded?

No,it's not obvious.
Maybe it's obvious if you're watching ball for 10 years.
But if you've seen big men dominate this league for decades,no,it's really not obvious at all.

I personally think Jokic would rather deal with a few lumbering 7 footers and being able to chill in the paint 90% of the game because of the lack of spacing instead of trying to guard in all the space in the modern NBA

[AleksandarN]

Oh great,this again.

Bear with me,i'll tell you a story.

About 10 years ago Steph Curry and the Warriors emerge into the NBA scene.
Small ball,motion Basketball,tons of 3s.
Other teams 7 footers are unplayable against them.
Many Centers retire before the age of 30.
Their archetype becomes obsolete.
Teams don't draft them,they don't develop them,they waive them faster than ever.

Enter stage,Nikola Jokic.
One of the most talented Big Man ever to play basketball.
And guess what,the league is not ready for him.
Teams can't guard him,playmaking,bully ball inside,shooting,he gets anything he wants offensively.

I'll ask you a simple question.
Put Jokic in the 2000 NBA.
Have him go against Hakeem,Shaq,Robinson,Duncan,Mutombo,Ewing,Wallace,Yao,Mourning,and about 40 other huge bodies teams had assempled to deal with these players.
Is it still so easy for him to do what he's doing?
Is he so efficient?
Does he foul more?
How harder does he get hit,fouled,guarded?

No,it's not obvious.
Maybe it's obvious if you're watching ball for 10 years.
But if you've seen big men dominate this league for decades,no,it's really not obvious at all.

Yet people saying Wemby is freak of a defensive player and jokic still scores 40 on him.

[Andri]

Olajuwon schooled everybody back in the day.

Now imagine,. Offensively, an equal Hakeem in the post, and add to him a better touch around the basket, a much better mid range, and a great three point shot. Finally, add an elite court vision and passing.

Man, he would have cooked

[MavsDirk41]

Oh great,this again.

Bear with me,i'll tell you a story.

About 10 years ago Steph Curry and the Warriors emerge into the NBA scene.
Small ball,motion Basketball,tons of 3s.
Other teams 7 footers are unplayable against them.
Many Centers retire before the age of 30.
Their archetype becomes obsolete.
Teams don't draft them,they don't develop them,they waive them faster than ever.

Enter stage,Nikola Jokic.
One of the most talented Big Man ever to play basketball.
And guess what,the league is not ready for him.
Teams can't guard him,playmaking,bully ball inside,shooting,he gets anything he wants offensively.

I'll ask you a simple question.
Put Jokic in the 2000 NBA.
Have him go against Hakeem,Shaq,Robinson,Duncan,Mutombo,Ewing,Wallace,Yao,Mourning,and about 40 other huge bodies teams had assempled to deal with these players.
Is it still so easy for him to do what he's doing?
Is he so efficient?
Does he foul more?
How harder does he get hit,fouled,guarded?

No,it's not obvious.
Maybe it's obvious if you're watching ball for 10 years.
But if you've seen big men dominate this league for decades,no,it's really not obvious at all.

I personally think Jokic would rather deal with a few lumbering 7 footers and being able to chill in the paint 90% of the game because of the lack of spacing instead of trying to guard in all the space in the modern NBA

If you think those guys he mentioned are lumbering 7 footers you didnt watch them play…unless you forgot the green font?

[MavsDirk41]

All time nba OBPM leaders

Jokic 7.43
Jordan 7.17
James 6.86
Luka 6.51
Curry 6.24

Jokic certainly has a case for the greatest all time offensive player. Surprised he leads Jordan in this category.

[Rubios]

Oh great,this again.

(...)

I'll ask you a simple question.
Put Jokic in the 2000 NBA.
Have him go against Hakeem,Shaq,Robinson,Duncan,Mutombo,Ewing,Wallace,Yao,Mourning,and about 40 other huge bodies teams had assempled to deal with these players.
Is it still so easy for him to do what he's doing?
Is he so efficient?
Does he foul more?
How harder does he get hit,fouled,guarded?

No,it's not obvious.
Maybe it's obvious if you're watching ball for 10 years.
But if you've seen big men dominate this league for decades,no,it's really not obvious at all.

I don’t know, and neither do you.
But we’ve seen Jokic destroy -no sugarcoating: destroy- a fully healthy AD, Gobert, Zubac, (...)
Could he post up against Hakeem, Shaq or Duncan? Probably not, but he’d torch them with floaters.

It’s the same as always: the best among the best would be great in any era.

[guynumber45]

Oh great,this again.

Bear with me,i'll tell you a story.

About 10 years ago Steph Curry and the Warriors emerge into the NBA scene.
Small ball,motion Basketball,tons of 3s.
Other teams 7 footers are unplayable against them.
Many Centers retire before the age of 30.
Their archetype becomes obsolete.
Teams don't draft them,they don't develop them,they waive them faster than ever.

Enter stage,Nikola Jokic.
One of the most talented Big Man ever to play basketball.
And guess what,the league is not ready for him.
Teams can't guard him,playmaking,bully ball inside,shooting,he gets anything he wants offensively.

I'll ask you a simple question.
Put Jokic in the 2000 NBA.
Have him go against Hakeem,Shaq,Robinson,Duncan,Mutombo,Ewing,Wallace,Yao,Mourning,and about 40 other huge bodies teams had assempled to deal with these players.
Is it still so easy for him to do what he's doing?
Is he so efficient?
Does he foul more?
How harder does he get hit,fouled,guarded?

No,it's not obvious.
Maybe it's obvious if you're watching ball for 10 years.
But if you've seen big men dominate this league for decades,no,it's really not obvious at all.

I personally think Jokic would rather deal with a few lumbering 7 footers and being able to chill in the paint 90% of the game because of the lack of spacing instead of trying to guard in all the space in the modern NBA

If you think those guys he mentioned are lumbering 7 footers you didnt watch them play…unless you forgot the green font?

Lumbering may have been disrespectful, but I still hold to my overall point that being a center is harder in 2025 than it was in 1995. There may be less brutes to match up against, but trying to guard in all the space of the modern game, especially against those dynamic deep threat shooting guards for a big, heavy center is way more taxing over a 82 game season + playoffs.

[Duke4life831]

All time nba OBPM leaders

Jokic 7.43
Jordan 7.17
James 6.86
Luka 6.51
Curry 6.24

Jokic certainly has a case for the greatest all time offensive player. Surprised he leads Jordan in this category.

I will say this as a pro MJ way to view this.

MJ vs his peers

MJ: 7.17
Magic: 5.93
Barkley: 5.36
Bird: 5.12

Now granted this is just one stat. But I think it’s safe to say it’s not always apples to apples when trying to compare different generations.

Going with this stat, I think you can make the argument that no one was a better offensive player vs his era and peers than MJ.

[Ssj16]

Why hasn’t he had elite playoff offensive results?

This is disappointing from you OP. Spend all day defending LeBron and then just give up and impromptu admit Jokic is better offensively because he puts up some nice box score numbers? What happened to your passion?

nah put some effort into ur argument or get out.

name a playoff series he was favored in and should have won but didn't. then compare the amount of series he's lost as a favorite and compare that to the amount of times other all time greats have lost as favorites. is he average, worse, or better than others. i dont wanna spoil it the answer for u

My argument is exceptionally simple:

The offensive GOAT needs to have lead more than one elite offensive playoff run by age 30. Jokic box score stats while impressive have not produced elite playoff offensive results for his team EVEN when only filtering for his on-court offensive rating.

The offensive GOAT is a player so unstoppable that his team offense is unstoppable in a playoff setting. Why do I argue this way? Because the REAL offensive GOATs have proven this over and over again.

Steph, LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Bird all had multiple and counting under their belts by this age.

I agree that Jokic's resume would be cemented with a couple more rings but you lost credibility in my eyes when you name all of these Hall of gamers players who had played with other hall of gamers. Especially Curry who wasnt the best player on his own team for 2 championships and who won 1 out of 4 finals MVP.