Should people call out Jokic more for his lack of leadership?

[Special_Puppy]

He had 29 points, 20 rebounds, and 13 assists (with a +9.8 EPM). What more do you want from him

Better shooting in the fourth, probably, but I mean, he was probably exhausted after bootstrapping the team the whole game, so...

So you needed like 35 points 20 rebounds and 13 assists for people to be happy lol

[sashaturiaf]

Judging by his doughboy body, constant talk of wanting to be elsewhere playing with horses and slumping terrible body language I think he wants people to call him out.

People will never do it though. There's always an excuse for Nikki

[tsherkin]

He had 29 points, 20 rebounds, and 13 assists (with a +9.8 EPM). What more do you want from him

Better shooting in the fourth, probably, but I mean, he was probably exhausted after bootstrapping the team the whole game, so...

So you needed like 35 points 20 rebounds and 13 assists for people to be happy lol

People are never happy. If the 96 Bulls played in today's era, won 72 games and won a title, people would still find ways to kvetch and complain.

You could win 81 games and people would be like "but but, they lost one! not perfect!"

[DimesandKnicks]

We've covered this...it's just nonsense at this point. You still have this wild idea that he's a bad defender.

Freaking wildddd man!!!

You spent a month telling me to “quantify” his defensive impact and then when asked to “quantify” how is strengths “offset” his weaknesses you said “Let’s try and talk about this differently

I’m not talking to you about anything breh

Yes I remember it in all the stagging pain! I don't think I've ever won an argument anywhere in life before so wildly

[1993Playoffs]

He needs to be called out defensively. Poor effort once again

[DimesandKnicks]

He needs to be called out defensively. Poor effort once again

What a wild take. 20 opportunities to defend, with a 3.4 differential and only contest 5.8 of those shots. It’s not effort, it’s his standing reach, which I’m pretty sure is among the best in the league

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The job of the best player in a NBA team is more than that. There's always an emotional and leadership component that he's not mastering.
He's not being singled out because they lost, he's being singled out because there's a pattern of the Nuggets f around and giving poor effort on defense, coming out of shape, when last year the locker room was train wreck.

None of us are in the locker room, so we don't really know jack about what his emotional, leadership component looks like, to be honest. And at some point, you can flap your lips all you like, but people still don't necessarily listen, you know what I mean? For example, Jordan's vaunted leadership wasn't worth anything at all prior to Phil and Scottie and Ho Grant and everyone while he was rocking sub-.500 seasons and getting swept in the playoffs. What we know is that his style was more vocal and visible, that's all. And then often had to be smoothed over afterward. So again, we don't REALLY know anything about what's going on with what Jokic is or isn't doing.

What we know is that Denver was injured and lost a game, and people are always looking for a reason to rip on Joker.

1) nobody cares about this game. It's four home games in a row, coming after a season like last one, in which the team looked checked out at times. When this happens, the best player is at least as responsible as the coach
2) we might not be in the locker room, but we see the effect of it. Once again, not the first time. Jokic does have these funky stretches with bad body language. And the team follows him
3) jordon was not the emotional leader of the Bulls. Cartwright was, and then Pippen/Harper.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

You clearly didn't watch him enough. Maybe you only watch him in highlights. He's a very vocal leader

He was dying the last playoffs. He absolutely isn't now

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think there's a real lack of leadership when it comes to Jokic. I think overall his style works even if you might not put him in the highest levels of leadership compared to some other atg's. His teams generally perform and he gets good results in both the rs and ps for the most part while playing at an atg level. I'd rate his leadership above KD, Barkley, Malone, Moses, Kobe and others who are often thought of as top 25 all time.

[tsherkin]

3) jordon was not the emotional leader of the Bulls. Cartwright was, and then Pippen/Harper.

Depends on the kind of emotion, honestly.

[ConSarnit]

I have seen many Nuggets games over the last 7-8 years. I thought Jokic is having a top3 peak all time, and not necessarily 3rd.
I am not so sure anymore, and the reason for me is his approach and this has been severely hurting the Nuggets.
Because of how great he is, we always shielded him from any blame whenever the Nuggets lose, but I now suspect this is a mistake.
There's a concept they teach you in those manager trainings, coined by Peter Drucker, it's called 'the shadow of the leader".
Whatever you do, when you ar at the top, people in your organization will look at you and pick up your habits.
This is very true in the NBA, the culture of the organization is often an emanation of its best player. Popovich said many times that the Spurs were the Spurs because Timmeh allowed him to coach. There's a famous clip of Steven Jackson admitting how seeing Timmeh accepting criticism forced him to do the same.

The Nuggets are again failing to keep the effort and the attention to details, with a different coach, throwing games they shouldn't lose. In the past we've seen Jamal coming out of shape not being called out. We do see Jokic taking plays off today.
If something is not working in the locker room, the best player must be held accountable for that. He commands enough respect to make everyone follow him. But it's not happening, and I think we should stop blaming everyone but him.

What’s with these incredibly badly timed attacks on the Nuggets? (this and the Russ thread).

The Nuggets are currently on track to have the best record they’ve ever had with Jokic. They also have the best net rating they’ve ever had with him. Oh yeah, they are also currently on pace to have the best offense EVER.

Why are people attacking Jokic when this is the best season he (or the Nuggets) have ever had?

[Ssj16]

Lets get to the bare bones of the matter, he won in a weak year where he played no 50 win teams and faced a Heat team that was starting Kyle Lowry and the corpse of Kevin Love.

Yeah, overrated.

I already debunked this myth that they won in a weak year. Laker fans are so salty because if they had won, the championship would have been legitimized somehow.

I would love to hear this argument because they only won 53 games and beat a 42 win team, 45 win team 43 win team and then a 44 win team. You can only play who is in front of you but 7 teams with better records got eliminated without Nugs having to play them. Results seem like they could be much different if you re-did the playoffs that year.

Only 50 win team Joker has ever beaten in the playoffs was last year's clippers team at exactly 50-32.

I did this project looking at Playoff PER for each team that a playoff champion faced during their run over the past several years: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2471570

[hagredionis]

It's not the center's job to run the offense, be the offensive hub and anchor for the team and lead the team in assist but Jokic does this greater than any player in the game who is not a guard.

Your take makes me feel like I'm still in 2005 or something.

I don't understand what exactly is your point? I don't necessarily disagree with what you wrote above but were talking about defense and that's where he struggles.

The point is not every team needs to follow a "conventional" or "traditional" scheme to be successful.

You're talking about traditional basketball tropes as if the only way to win a championship is to have a center who is a rim protector who anchors your defense when we just went a decade with teams showing success playing small ball and not having a traditional center in during crunch time.

The make up of Denver doesn't rely on Jokic's defense. It relies on his offense and others to shore up the defensive deficiencies. Just like Goldenstate's lineup of death could work without a traditional center in crunch time.

Imagine if you remove Iggy and Draymond from the death lineup, how impactful would it be? Now imagine removing Aaron Gordon and C Braun from Denver's lineup. You don't need to, you're seeing the impact right now.

I never said teams need to follow a transitional scheme to be successful. My point is simply that if others need to shore up defensive deficiencies of a center than it's hard to argue that the player is so much better than anybody else in the league that "it's not close" as we constantly read in these forums.

[bkkrh]

I think Jokic is mad overrated on this board, but no. He's won a championship with this same 'leadership', and he's playing great. They are without aaron gordon who's a key piece to their team. If he was playing, they'd be winning more and this wouldn't be thing.

Lets get to the bare bones of the matter, he won in a weak year where he played no 50 win teams and faced a Heat team that was starting Kyle Lowry and the corpse of Kevin Love.

Yeah, overrated.

This is silly. He beat LeBron, AD, Durant, CP3, Booker, Ant, Gobert, KAT, Bam, and Butler.

People only make this argument for Jokic. Shaq got swept by a 47 win team in the Finals. Shaq was out of shape. Shaq wasn’t a great leader. Shaq never won a playoff series without an allstar teammate.

The most idiotic part about this take is that there were only 2 50 win teams in the West, one of them being Denver^^. A logical thinking person would probably think "Oh wow Utah still had 37 wins as the 12th seed, OKC won just 40 games despite Shai having his breakout season, the West was really tough that year." Instead people focus on some magical number, which apparently gives players a stat boost in the playoffs. Durant and Booker on one team on a 50 win team, that´s a respectable opponent, but on a 45 win team, get outta here. Jimmy Butler, Bam, Tyler Herro and Kyle Lowry in the finals on a 44 win team, that´s nothing, but if it would have been the exact same combination of players the season before, when they won 53 games, it would have been a worthy opponent.

But it´s a pointless discussion. It is at this point blatantly obvious that some people just hate on Jokic no matter what he does. His last years stat line seemed insane and somehow he is putting up an even more impressive stat line this season. At this point he could put up prime Wilt Chamberlain numbers, score 200 points in a game and people would still talk about him not caring, being out of shape and so on. What he is putting up right now is the most impressive stat line I have seen since I follow Basketball in the early 90s, there are more than enough examples of players that looked a lot better when playing with him and completely fell off as soon as they left Denver.

[TheBobster]

Let's not kid ourselves. There isn't a person here who wouldn't take Jokic over their team's starting center.

He may not be the rim protector a lot of people want in a center, but he's going to be seen as one of the best centers in NBA history when it's all done. You just don't see players who can pass, rebound, and score inside and outside like him.

Every year he's among the league leaders in points, rebounds and assists and finishes 1st or 2nd in the MVP voting. What more could you want?

[MavsDirk41]

Yes.

This is hilarious, I don't recall seeing any post on this from you. However, I see you posting that Luka can rival SGA to win the MVP.

Don Luka was winning without Lebron and carrying the play-in Lakers to the second best record in the West. I am very partial but have given him the benefit of the doubt due to his extraordinary shape.

Very partial lol??? Replace Joker with SGA or Luka, two of your favorites, and Denver is worse. And Luka was winning with Austin Reaves having a career year. The Lakers have two all stars this year and neither have gray in their beard.

[bkkrh]

I have seen many Nuggets games over the last 7-8 years. I thought Jokic is having a top3 peak all time, and not necessarily 3rd.
I am not so sure anymore, and the reason for me is his approach and this has been severely hurting the Nuggets.
Because of how great he is, we always shielded him from any blame whenever the Nuggets lose, but I now suspect this is a mistake.
There's a concept they teach you in those manager trainings, coined by Peter Drucker, it's called 'the shadow of the leader".
Whatever you do, when you ar at the top, people in your organization will look at you and pick up your habits.
This is very true in the NBA, the culture of the organization is often an emanation of its best player. Popovich said many times that the Spurs were the Spurs because Timmeh allowed him to coach. There's a famous clip of Steven Jackson admitting how seeing Timmeh accepting criticism forced him to do the same.

The Nuggets are again failing to keep the effort and the attention to details, with a different coach, throwing games they shouldn't lose. In the past we've seen Jamal coming out of shape not being called out. We do see Jokic taking plays off today.
If something is not working in the locker room, the best player must be held accountable for that. He commands enough respect to make everyone follow him. But it's not happening, and I think we should stop blaming everyone but him.

What’s with these incredibly badly timed attacks on the Nuggets? (this and the Russ thread).

The Nuggets are currently on track to have the best record they’ve ever had with Jokic. They also have the best net rating they’ve ever had with him. Oh yeah, they are also currently on pace to have the best offense EVER.

Why are people attacking Jokic when this is the best season he (or the Nuggets) have ever had?

Yeah it is getting slowly worse than the Lebron obsession. At this point I pretty much wanna see him leading the league in Rebounds, Assists and Points per game, while shooting 60/50/90 just because of all this BS, but I guess even then people would find something to nitpick because he doesn´t look or act the way they expect from an NBA star.

[shrink]

If something is not working in the locker room, the best player must be held accountable for that. He commands enough respect to make everyone follow him. But it's not happening, and I think we should stop blaming everyone but him.

That seems odd. He's doing his job. He doesn't have telepathic control over his teammates, nor the ability to do their jobs for them. Cam Johnson had a rough one and Jamal Murray didn't play the 4th due to injury. Jokic himself didn't have a particularly strong shooting performance, especially in the 4th, but the idea that he should be singled out over and above everyone else doesn't make sense. That isn't how leadership works; guys don't just WILL the rest of the team to do their jobs.

I agree. Becoming a great basketball player doesn’t make you great with people, and sometimes makes you worse with them.

[maverick_41]

You also omitted lack of defense from the Joker which is a pretty big deal. OP isn't saying he should do his teammates job for them, he is pointing out the terrible body language, the lack of defense and the fact that he isn't getting it done when someone of his talent level should be the deciding factor in a close game against a 6 win team.

Do you hold the same accountability for the Luka and his lack of defense?

Luka is not a center so it's not his job to anchor the defense and provide rim protection. But that is the job of a center. That's how basketball works, the center is the most important position for a good defense.

Then Denver might entertain trading Jokic for Steven Adams

[remiga007]

I would like to point out that beside Jokic, Denver has been trotting out lineup of Spencer Jones, Payton Watson, struggling Cam Johnson , and Jamal Murray. There are many posters here who hadn't heard of 40 percent of Den starting lineup before the start of the season. And the bench is middling at best.
And Jokic has them at 57 win pace. In the west. Just think about it for a minute.