Nash: Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles

[CoolD]

Shawn Marion hit over 11 rebounds per game 3 seasons.
While getting 2 steals around per game.
He was easily a top 5 defender in his position, PF or even SF. the fact he is a very versatile defender shouldn't be counted against him.
Yes he is no Tim Duncan, but he is easily a top 5 defender.

I never remember Mike Bibby be turned into a God through a lot of fake hype, when Sacramento was one of the best offensive teams.
Amare and Webber are about the same players, both teams were all offense no defense, but anyone in a right state of mind wouldn't have given a thought to Mike Bibby being a MVP.
He was good pg, that could shoot, in very talented team, pretty much like Nash.

What I laugh about Nash statements, MVP is media given award. NBA titles are earn on the basketball court, so you should judge a player on awards that are handed out, instead of earning it . Makes sense.

You do realize that steals and rebounding aren't the same as defense, right? Marion rebounded like a PF, but that was basically it. And using steals to measure D? Really? I guess AI is a better defender than a prime Bruce Bowen. The point is that Marion was still way too small to be any effective defender against real big men. In no way was he ever a top 5 defender at PF. He was always very undersized for the position.

Comparing Nash to Bibby shows a complete lack of knowledge on the two teams. The Kings offense ran mostly through Webber and Divac--so Webber and Divac deserved most of the credit for those teams (at least in those terms). That Kings team could have lost Bibby without really missing a beat because he wasn't the key to the team. By comparison, the Suns in those years looked pretty much lost whenever Nash was out. Nash was the much better player for the Suns and was much more important to their success than Bibby was for the Kings. Bibby was never anywhere near the playmaker that Nash was in his MVP years. That comparison is absurd, and to act like they were both just "PG's that could shoot" shows a clear bias against Nash.

The fact remains--take Nash off of that 05-06 Suns team, and they go from a 54 win team to likely a bottom feeder (probably not the very worst in the conference, but nowhere near the playoffs). He was more important to his team's success than any other player in the league. Therefore, he was the most valuable player.

Ofcourse rebounding and steals don't equate everything you can do in defense.
But the fact Marion was good enough to be able to get over 11 rebounds and 2 steals, no matter how much you try to trash him, for the sake of hyping up fake fraud of MVP in Nash.
Yes Marion is not as good as Duncan or K.G in defense, but even when he was undersized, he was a top 5 defender at PF.
Name me 5 better defensive PF's better than Marion in his prime.
K.G and Duncan, maybe Rasheed. Lets start naming some names.
Both Bibby and Nash where pretty good P.G's, funny thing was Sacramento got better when they added Bibby too, teams were basically cheap rip offs of each other, with a couple tweaks of each other, but MVP is just a whole different level. Nash totally cheapen that level. Is like giving Mrs Universe to an average broad, we are talking about an award that should be only for truly great players. Not some dude that rode a nice system, no defense, extremely talented teammates and the media did the greatest spin job ever.

I just can't imagine.

Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan

Playing a career with the likes of Dirk Nowitzki, Finley in his prime.
Amare, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and other good players, and never play in one finals game.

The fact is, I have a very high standards for who can obtain a MVP, you have fan boy standards for Nash, because he is your favorite player.

[retrospect24]

T-Mac - "Players shouldn't be judged on playoff series wins."

Dwight Howard- "Centers shouldn't be judged on number of post moves."

Carlos Boozer - "Players shouldn't be judged on honesty."

Gilbert Arenas - "Players shouldn't be judged on number of games played."

Derek Fisher - "Guards shouldn't be judged on the ability to make a layup."

Golden State Warriors - "Teams shouldn't be judged on defense."

Allen Iverson - "Players shouldn't be judged in practice."

Stephon Marbury - "Humans shouldn't be judged on sanity."

[TsunamiZC]

T-Mac - "Players shouldn't be judged on playoff series wins."

Dwight Howard- "Centers shouldn't be judged on number of post moves."

Carlos Boozer - "Players shouldn't be judged on honesty."

Gilbert Arenas - "Players shouldn't be judged on number of games played."

Derek Fisher - "Guards shouldn't be judged on the ability to make a layup."

Golden State Warriors - "Teams shouldn't be judged on defense."

Allen Iverson - "Players shouldn't be judged in practice."

Stephon Marbury - "Humans shouldn't be judged on sanity."

/THREAD

[mike_miller]

he won the mvp because he was the most valuable player, which has little to nothing to do with winning a ring.

and hes right, even in the nba, too many other factors contribute to winning a title, luck being one of them, to use that as a reason to knock a guys career.

[Brenice]

What Nash is doing is more admirable than players who jet to a championship contender when they see their prime years falling behind them.

100% with Nash on this one

Does this really happen? I thought it was illegal, I mean immoral. (pun intended)

I agree with you on this. Zo, begging out of Toronto to join D-Wade did not have his career certified by winning the title, it was unnecessary to do but, in my eyes, destroyed his credibility.

[LApwnd]

Nash is correct in some sense, not getting a title doesn't mean you didn't have a sucessful career, just that your career ISNT COMPLETE.

[pillwenney]

Ofcourse rebounding and steals don't equate everything you can do in defense.
But the fact Marion was good enough to be able to get over 11 rebounds and 2 steals, no matter how much you try to trash him, for the sake of hyping up fake fraud of MVP in Nash.
Yes Marion is not as good as Duncan or K.G in defense, but even when he was undersized, he was a top 5 defender at PF.
Name me 5 better defensive PF's better than Marion in his prime.
K.G and Duncan, maybe Rasheed. Lets start naming some names.
Both Bibby and Nash where pretty good P.G's, funny thing was Sacramento got better when they added Bibby too, teams were basically cheap rip offs of each other, with a couple tweaks of each other, but MVP is just a whole different level. Nash totally cheapen that level. Is like giving Mrs Universe to an average broad, we are talking about an award that should be only for truly great players. Not some dude that rode a nice system, no defense, extremely talented teammates and the media did the greatest spin job ever.

I just can't imagine.

Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan

Playing a career with the likes of Dirk Nowitzki, Finley in his prime.
Amare, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and other good players, and never play in one finals game.

The fact is, I have a very high standards for who can obtain a MVP, you have fan boy standards for Nash, because he is your favorite player.

Guys like Kenyon Martin, Kurt Thomas, McDyess, JO, Brian Skinner, Haslem, Okafor, Chandler, Nene, Kwame, Brand, Chuck Hayes, Gasol....many more who are debatable. Again, Marion put up nice stats, but couldn't really be considered a good PF defender. He was way too small. He was always a very nice help defender, but on the ball, against PF's he was nowhere near elite. Some of those guys I listed played center, but were still better than Marion at guarding PFs.

And no, the Kings and Suns were nothing like each other. The Suns played at a considerably faster pace and ran nearly everything through Nash with the pick n' roll and dribble penetration in the half court. In the Kings half court, they ran things through Webber and Divac. The team was full-sized at every position, and other than being more "offense oriented", was nothing like the Suns teams.

To show a more simple correlation that very clearly shows the differences, when the Suns added Nash, they went from a 29-win team to a 61-win team. When the Kings added Bibby, they went from a 55-win team to a 61-win team. Mike gave the Kings stability, better shooting, and (if you can believe it) better defense at the PG spot, and moved the team from being a second tier team to an elite team. Nash moved the Suns from a 29-win team to an elite team.

And for the record, I don't give a s**t about Nash. Go ahead and look at my posting history and see how often I really talk about him. I have never considered him a favorite player, nor have I ever been a fan of a team that he was on (in fact his Mavs were rivals to my Kings). I just have an urge to point things out to people when their perceptions aren't based in reality. Nash was far and away the most important player on an elite regular season team. That makes an MVP award completely reasonable.

[bballmaniac27]

It's pretty obvious that most of the people bashing him didn't even bother to read the article. It really is amazing how a class act like Nash could have so many haters.

Actually Nash is the main reason why the Suns are bad defensively...

you troll. Nash isn't even the worst defender on his team. If anyone should be blamed for the Suns subpar defense it should be Amare. Furthermore, it's not like the suns were at the bottom of the league defensively. Like others pointed out they were average.

[MaryvalesFinest]

It's pretty obvious that most of the people bashing him didn't even bother to read the article. It really is amazing how a class act like Nash could have so many haters.

Actually Nash is the main reason why the Suns are bad defensively...

you troll. Nash isn't even the worst defender on his team. If anyone should be blamed for the Suns subpar defense it should be Amare. Furthermore, it's not like the suns were at the bottom of the league defensively. Like others pointed out they were average.

Amare is a better defender than Nash

[CoolD]

Ofcourse rebounding and steals don't equate everything you can do in defense.
But the fact Marion was good enough to be able to get over 11 rebounds and 2 steals, no matter how much you try to trash him, for the sake of hyping up fake fraud of MVP in Nash.
Yes Marion is not as good as Duncan or K.G in defense, but even when he was undersized, he was a top 5 defender at PF.
Name me 5 better defensive PF's better than Marion in his prime.
K.G and Duncan, maybe Rasheed. Lets start naming some names.
Both Bibby and Nash where pretty good P.G's, funny thing was Sacramento got better when they added Bibby too, teams were basically cheap rip offs of each other, with a couple tweaks of each other, but MVP is just a whole different level. Nash totally cheapen that level. Is like giving Mrs Universe to an average broad, we are talking about an award that should be only for truly great players. Not some dude that rode a nice system, no defense, extremely talented teammates and the media did the greatest spin job ever.

I just can't imagine.

Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan

Playing a career with the likes of Dirk Nowitzki, Finley in his prime.
Amare, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and other good players, and never play in one finals game.

The fact is, I have a very high standards for who can obtain a MVP, you have fan boy standards for Nash, because he is your favorite player.

Guys like Kenyon Martin, Kurt Thomas, McDyess, JO, Brian Skinner, Haslem, Okafor, Chandler, Nene, Kwame, Brand, Chuck Hayes, Gasol....many more who are debatable. Again, Marion put up nice stats, but couldn't really be considered a good PF defender. He was way too small. He was always a very nice help defender, but on the ball, against PF's he was nowhere near elite. Some of those guys I listed played center, but were still better than Marion at guarding PFs.

And no, the Kings and Suns were nothing like each other. The Suns played at a considerably faster pace and ran nearly everything through Nash with the pick n' roll and dribble penetration in the half court. In the Kings half court, they ran things through Webber and Divac. The team was full-sized at every position, and other than being more "offense oriented", was nothing like the Suns teams.

To show a more simple correlation that very clearly shows the differences, when the Suns added Nash, they went from a 29-win team to a 61-win team. When the Kings added Bibby, they went from a 55-win team to a 61-win team. Mike gave the Kings stability, better shooting, and (if you can believe it) better defense at the PG spot, and moved the team from being a second tier team to an elite team. Nash moved the Suns from a 29-win team to an elite team.

And for the record, I don't give a s**t about Nash. Go ahead and look at my posting history and see how often I really talk about him. I have never considered him a favorite player, nor have I ever been a fan of a team that he was on (in fact his Mavs were rivals to my Kings). I just have an urge to point things out to people when their perceptions aren't based in reality. Nash was far and away the most important player on an elite regular season team. That makes an MVP award completely reasonable.

I've watched Haslem all his career, he is not a better defender. Kenyon Martin, watching the Denver Nuggets have the worst defense in the league a couple years with Martin Camby, yeah okay.
Gasol is not that good of a defender, he is tall though,
Most of those names are desperate attempts.
Also when Nash left Dallas, they happen to go to the Finals, and had a 67 win season, without Nash.
When Nash came in, also D''Antoni came in. Amare was in his second year, where young players make that leap.

Like I said
Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson
Vlade, Webber, Peja

I would flip a coin on who is better trio to play along with.
Ofcourse the teams are not exactly the same, but in premise they are really close.
Nash didn't look that good in Dallas, because of D'Antoni.
That is what people don't seem to get.
Nash impact was just the perfect place, at the perfect time, similar to Mike Bibby in that sense.
Young studs in Amare and Joe Johnson, diverse unheralded Shawn Marion, and brand new coach, that his system caught the league by surprise.
Nash totally was able to bamboozle his way to his cheap MVP's.

[BubbaTee]

Nash is right.

And it's not like his legacy would somehow be enhanced if he took the minimum to go ride the pine in LA or Boston or something, ala Gary Payton.


I would have given Nash's first MVP to Shaq, and his second to Dirk.

[pillwenney]

I've watched Haslem all his career, he is not a better defender. Kenyon Martin, watching the Denver Nuggets have the worst defense in the league a couple years with Martin Camby, yeah okay.
Gasol is not that good of a defender, he is tall though,
Most of those names are desperate attempts.
Also when Nash left Dallas, they happen to go to the Finals, and had a 67 win season, without Nash.
When Nash came in, also D''Antoni came in. Amare was in his second year, where young players make that leap.

Like I said
Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson
Vlade, Webber, Peja

I would flip a coin on who is better trio to play along with.
Ofcourse the teams are not exactly the same, but in premise they are really close.
Nash didn't look that good in Dallas, because of D'Antoni.
That is what people don't seem to get.
Nash impact was just the perfect place, at the perfect time, similar to Mike Bibby in that sense.
Young studs in Amare and Joe Johnson, diverse unheralded Shawn Marion, and brand new coach, that his system caught the league by surprise.
Nash totally was able to bamboozle his way to his cheap MVP's.

Yes. All of those players are better defenders at the PF position. Easily. Marion, like basically everyone who is 6' 7" 220 lbs, is simply too small to guard other PFs. It's that simple. Put Marion against a good scoring PF and he will do a worse job than all of those defenders.

And just listing the trios is completely misleading for two reasons.
1) That trio played with Q-Rich, an aging Jim Jackson and Barbosa. That was about it. That Kings trio played with Christie, B-Jax, Pollard, Turkoglu and later on, a younger Jim Jackson and Keon Clark. It's also misleading because Johnson wasn't quite the Joe Johnson we would later see in Atlanta.
Christie>QRich
A prime B-Jax>>>>A young Barbosa
young Hedo (and later on, a younger Jim Jackson)>>older Jim Jackson
Pollard (later Keon)>>>>spot minutes from Steven Hunter
2)I have, throughout these posts, been talking primarily of the 05-06 season, when Nash carried that team to 54 wins, and later on, the WCF--with only Marion remaining from that great trio you mentioned.

But no, regardless of this, they are not remotely close in premise for one reason that I have stated multiple times now--the context of the offense. Nash was the center of everything Phoenix did. The team could not function anywhere near the same without Nash. Bibby was not the center of everything the Kings did--Chris and Vlade were. The Kings started the 02-03 season without Bibby, and went 15-5. Thus his value to the Kings was not even remotely close, in any way, to Nash's value to the Suns. There is no similarity in premise here. The Kings went from very good to elite with Bibby. The Suns went from bad to elite with Nash.

And you're also wrong about D'Antoni. He had taken over the year before for them, and went 20-41 3 quarters of a season. When Nash came in, it would take him almost two years to lose another 41 games.

You can bring up Dallas, sure (even though they were a completely different team by the time they made the finals). And I am by no means saying that Nash was the best over all player in those years--but that's not what the MVP award is. If it was called "The best player in the league", you would have a stronger argument. But it's not. It's about which player is the most valuable to their team. Nash absolutely was that for 05-06, and arguably in 04-05. Without him in those two years, the team was 2-8. With him, they were 114-40.

[draft]

It's better to have a legacy like Reggie Miller and John Stockton. Guys who didn't go ring chasing at the end of their career. Gary Payton won a ring in Miami but does anybody really care. It didn't make him a better player or give him a better legacy.

[Hallstar]

he won the mvp because he was the most valuable player, which has little to nothing to do with winning a ring.

.

It has everything to do with being on good teams though. Which goes back to the same circumstances argument.

Who won MVP and not on a contender?


If you're not judging players on rings, you shouldn't judge them on MVPs either which is basically a team award @ this point. And one is earned on the court and the other is voted.

And let's not get into the semantics of what MVP means, Nash was never in consideration for being the best player in the league if you knew basketball.

[Hallstar]

It's better to have a legacy like Reggie Miller and John Stockton. Guys who didn't go ring chasing at the end of their career. Gary Payton won a ring in Miami but does anybody really care. It didn't make him a better player or give him a better legacy.

Payton cares, and he contributed.

[CoolD]

I've watched Haslem all his career, he is not a better defender. Kenyon Martin, watching the Denver Nuggets have the worst defense in the league a couple years with Martin Camby, yeah okay.
Gasol is not that good of a defender, he is tall though,
Most of those names are desperate attempts.
Also when Nash left Dallas, they happen to go to the Finals, and had a 67 win season, without Nash.
When Nash came in, also D''Antoni came in. Amare was in his second year, where young players make that leap.

Like I said
Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson
Vlade, Webber, Peja

I would flip a coin on who is better trio to play along with.
Ofcourse the teams are not exactly the same, but in premise they are really close.
Nash didn't look that good in Dallas, because of D'Antoni.
That is what people don't seem to get.
Nash impact was just the perfect place, at the perfect time, similar to Mike Bibby in that sense.
Young studs in Amare and Joe Johnson, diverse unheralded Shawn Marion, and brand new coach, that his system caught the league by surprise.
Nash totally was able to bamboozle his way to his cheap MVP's.

Yes. All of those players are better defenders at the PF position. Easily. Marion, like basically everyone who is 6' 7" 220 lbs, is simply too small to guard other PFs. It's that simple. Put Marion against a good scoring PF and he will do a worse job than all of those defenders.

And just listing the trios is completely misleading for two reasons.
1) That trio played with Q-Rich, an aging Jim Jackson and Barbosa. That was about it. That Kings trio played with Christie, B-Jax, Pollard, Turkoglu and later on, a younger Jim Jackson and Keon Clark. It's also misleading because Johnson wasn't quite the Joe Johnson we would later see in Atlanta.
Christie>QRich
A prime B-Jax>>>>A young Barbosa
young Hedo (and later on, a younger Jim Jackson)>>older Jim Jackson
Pollard (later Keon)>>>>spot minutes from Steven Hunter
2)I have, throughout these posts, been talking primarily of the 05-06 season, when Nash carried that team to 54 wins, and later on, the WCF--with only Marion remaining from that great trio you mentioned.

But no, regardless of this, they are not remotely close in premise for one reason that I have stated multiple times now--the context of the offense. Nash was the center of everything Phoenix did. The team could not function anywhere near the same without Nash. Bibby was not the center of everything the Kings did--Chris and Vlade were. The Kings started the 02-03 season without Bibby, and went 15-5. Thus his value to the Kings was not even remotely close, in any way, to Nash's value to the Suns. There is no similarity in premise here. The Kings went from very good to elite with Bibby. The Suns went from bad to elite with Nash.

And you're also wrong about D'Antoni. He had taken over the year before for them, and went 20-41 3 quarters of a season. When Nash came in, it would take him almost two years to lose another 41 games.

You can bring up Dallas, sure (even though they were a completely different team by the time they made the finals). And I am by no means saying that Nash was the best over all player in those years--but that's not what the MVP award is. If it was called "The best player in the league", you would have a stronger argument. But it's not. It's about which player is the most valuable to their team. Nash absolutely was that for 05-06, and arguably in 04-05. Without him in those two years, the team was 2-8. With him, they were 114-40.

MVP is which is the most Valuable player in the league.
Just because Nash might have been the MVP with in his own team.
Like Billups was MVP to Detroit Pistons, a good team, but Billups is not MVP material.

That is why every multiple MVP has probably has a Championship, and Finals appearances, oddly enough, Nash doesn't have even one finals appearances, none less a title.

Just look at history of some of the list of multiple MVP winners.

Bill Russel, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem Duncan, Moses Malone

Even Shaq, Kobe

don't have multiple MVP's.

While fake fraud never been to a Finals Nash is with the likes of Jordan. What a mockery.

[kvash37]

So, winning isn't everything? Come on Nash, you're better than that. Making excuses for himself because he knows he will never sniff a title again.

[pillwenney]

MVP is which is the most Valuable player in the league.
Just because Nash might have been the MVP with in his own team.
Like Billups was MVP to Detroit Pistons, a good team, but Billups is not MVP material.

That is why every multiple MVP has probably has a Championship, and Finals appearances, oddly enough, Nash doesn't have even one finals appearances, none less a title.

Just look at history of some of the list of multiple MVP winners.

Bill Russel, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem Duncan, Moses Malone

Even Shaq, Kobe

don't have multiple MVP's.

While fake fraud never been to a Finals Nash is with the likes of Jordan. What a mockery.

And I stand by the notion that Nash was more valuable to his teams success than any other player was in the league. Billups, for instance, was not at the time, even very clearly the most valuable player on his team. Without him, the team would be considerably worse, but they wouldn't drop the way Phoenix would without Nash.

The rest of the stuff you're saying is completely irrelevant. The MVP is a regular season award, and it's not about some "class of players" or something like that from an all-time standpoint. It's about who was the most valuable player to a given team in a given season. Nash contributed more to his team's success than any other player in 05-06, and he clearly made a huge difference in his teams success in 04-05. I'm absolutely not saying that Nash is a top 20 player because of his MVPs. I am merely saying that in the given year, he was his teams most valuable player.

Look at other teams who were as successful as Phoenix in 05-06.

Detroit - Was Billups as good as Nash this year? Maybe. Was he was crucial to his teams success? Absolutely not.

Spurs - Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili are all too strong on their own to be that valuable to the Spurs. None of them relies on the other nearly as much as the entire Phoenix team relied on Nash.

Cavs - This is really the strongest argument I can find, but even still. The Cavs won 50 games, but in a still pretty weak eastern conference--and Lebron's supporting cast wasn't really all that much worse than Nash's.

Miami - Again, a situation where Wade and Shaq are both too successful by themselves. Both contributed to the teams success without having to rely much on the other.

LAC - Brad had a worse team than Nash with a stronger supporting cast.

LAL - Sure the team is bad without Kobe, but they're not all that good with Kobe.

Dallas - Again, a case of Dirk having a much better supporting cast than Nash.

Nash was the rightful MVP that year.

[CoolD]

LOL, I remember looking at stats, Marion was a top 5 player in efficiency in the whole league that year.

Nash couldn't even crack top 10 in the league.

I bet you can't find, a case were a guy isn't the most efficient guy in his own a team, that goes an wins MVP.

LeBron pawn his teammates in efficiency. Nash was pretty behind Shawn Marion his teammate.

54 wins is not a gold standard for MVP.

Last year Nuggets finish second in the West, had injuries, Billups wasn't even close to being MVP, because everyone knows he is good, but he is just not that great. You don't hand MVP's to a overachieving teams that use gimmick offenses that work vs. horrible teams, just see how Nash couldn't play without D'Antoni last year, that they had to go back to playing no defense just to make him happy.

Nash is like the only guy in history, for some reason, that the whole criteria changed for him.

[pillwenney]

LOL, I remember looking at stats, Marion was a top 5 player in efficiency in the whole league that year.

Nash couldn't even crack top 10 in the league.

I bet you can't find, a case were a guy isn't the most efficient guy in his own a team, that goes an wins MVP.

LeBron pawn his teammates in efficiency. Nash was pretty behind Shawn Marion his teammate.

54 wins is not a gold standard for MVP.

Last year Nuggets finish second in the West, had injuries, Billups wasn't even close to being MVP, because everyone knows he is good, but he is just not that great. You don't hand MVP's to a overachieving teams that use gimmick offenses that work vs. horrible teams, just see how Nash couldn't play without D'Antoni last year, that they had to go back to playing no defense just to make him happy.

Nash is like the only guy in history, for some reason, that the whole criteria changed for him.

Yeah, I wonder why Marion had such great effiency? Could it be because he didn't have to create anything himself? But regardless, if you really want to argue that Marion was nearly as important as Nash, be my guest. I don't think you'll have many followers. At some point, you have to watch the game.

Sure 54 wins isn't a gold standard, but the fact remains that the Suns were near the top of the league despite essentially losing Amare, JJ, and Q-Rich for Diaw, Kurt Thomas, and some shooters. Considering that drop in talent, that's an insanely small drop off in record.

And I'm also not saying that that year for Nash would win MVP every year. Lebron's last year, for instance, would have deserved it because we all know that team would have lost probably at least 30-35 wins without him.

Billups was very helpful to his team this year--absolutely. But you have to look at the ultimate change he brought. Denver went from a solid, consistent play off team to a team that couldn't quite be considered a contender. In the regular season, the upgrade from Miller/Iverson to Billups ultimately resulted in an extra 5 or so wins. Without him, they would be much worse, but probably still around a 40 win team. If the 05-06 suns had lost Nash, they would be likely around 25 wins IMO.

And the part about "going back to playing no defense just to make Nash happy" is absurd. The team was playing worse because it was full of mismatched talent, and Amare was the one who was much more openly complaining. Not to mention that the dude is also declining because of age, and oh by the way--still put up damn strong numbers.