MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[The4thHorseman]

Lebron is the GOAT at asking for help. Can't beat that.

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.

Jordan liked to belittle Cartwright in the locker room. He’d imitate Cartwright’s unorthodox shooting style with wild exaggerated moves that left many of his teammates trying to stifle laughter when Cartwright was nearby. Cartwright would just look away and blame immaturity.

But Jordan went one step too far that first season. He was angry over the Bulls’ slow start and had already gone to Jerry Krause during the Western trip in November to ask that he make some trades.

“I need help,” he told Krause. Krause explained the Bulls had salary cap problems, which Jordan neither understood nor cared to hear about. So he made some decisions. One was that he would have to do just that much more himself. And to do that, he couldn’t have Cartwright fouling things up, especially late in the game.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

[OdomFan]

Lebron is the GOAT at asking for help. Can't beat that.

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.

Jordan liked to belittle Cartwright in the locker room. He’d imitate Cartwright’s unorthodox shooting style with wild exaggerated moves that left many of his teammates trying to stifle laughter when Cartwright was nearby. Cartwright would just look away and blame immaturity.

But Jordan went one step too far that first season. He was angry over the Bulls’ slow start and had already gone to Jerry Krause during the Western trip in November to ask that he make some trades.

“I need help,” he told Krause. Krause explained the Bulls had salary cap problems, which Jordan neither understood nor cared to hear about. So he made some decisions. One was that he would have to do just that much more himself. And to do that, he couldn’t have Cartwright fouling things up, especially late in the game.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

He didn't say Lebron was the only one to ask for help, he said Lebron is the best at doing it.

[The4thHorseman]

Lebron is the GOAT at asking for help. Can't beat that.

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.

Jordan liked to belittle Cartwright in the locker room. He’d imitate Cartwright’s unorthodox shooting style with wild exaggerated moves that left many of his teammates trying to stifle laughter when Cartwright was nearby. Cartwright would just look away and blame immaturity.

But Jordan went one step too far that first season. He was angry over the Bulls’ slow start and had already gone to Jerry Krause during the Western trip in November to ask that he make some trades.

“I need help,” he told Krause. Krause explained the Bulls had salary cap problems, which Jordan neither understood nor cared to hear about. So he made some decisions. One was that he would have to do just that much more himself. And to do that, he couldn’t have Cartwright fouling things up, especially late in the game.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

He didn't say Lebron was the only one to ask for help, he said Lebron is the best at doing it.

If he knew MJ did ask during his career, then most likely he doesn't even make the initial comment.

[trueballer7]

Lebron is the GOAT at asking for help. Can't beat that.

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.

Jordan liked to belittle Cartwright in the locker room. He’d imitate Cartwright’s unorthodox shooting style with wild exaggerated moves that left many of his teammates trying to stifle laughter when Cartwright was nearby. Cartwright would just look away and blame immaturity.

But Jordan went one step too far that first season. He was angry over the Bulls’ slow start and had already gone to Jerry Krause during the Western trip in November to ask that he make some trades.

“I need help,” he told Krause. Krause explained the Bulls had salary cap problems, which Jordan neither understood nor cared to hear about. So he made some decisions. One was that he would have to do just that much more himself. And to do that, he couldn’t have Cartwright fouling things up, especially late in the game.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

Thats not an article, thats from the book "The Jordan Rules". Now, lets go to actual Bulls' GM Jerry Krause "“I’ll say this about him, he never came to me and asked for other players. He never came to me and asked me to draft a player. He never came to me to ask me to trade for a player. Never once did that happen. Part of it was he thought he was so darn good he thought he could win without them, I’m sure of that…Michael was smart enough to understand the organization and he understood what we had to do as an organization…He never complained to me.”
boom down goes Frazier! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

[trueballer7]

The second year they lost Horace Grant. That was the major difference. Jordan came back that year but with no 3rd star, they lost to the Magic in 6.

Enter a 34 year old Rodman. Three peat.

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

And Jordan came back with 17 games to go in the season, hardly game shape, so it's strange to say that the difference was Horace Grant.

94/95 Jordan who only played 17 games in the regular season shot .431 EFG%. 95/96 he was back at .525. his 94/95 numbers were easily the worst of his career (ignoring his Wizards years). His Bulls EFG% for his career was .518. His FT% was also 3% points below his average, 80% compared to 83%. He just wasn't "Jordan" in that short season joining the team late in the year.

They dont know the players, not only werent they old enough, if they were alive anyway, to be watching live but they dont even take the time to watch a couple of games now. Horace Grant was an undersized PF, whose status as a player was on par with...say Tristan Thompson. Valuable player, good role player, honest, competent at certain parts of the game. I'm gonna bother comparing him to the top PFs of the time, Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc Derrick Coleman would eat his heart out.

[daswunderboy]

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

And Jordan came back with 17 games to go in the season, hardly game shape, so it's strange to say that the difference was Horace Grant.

94/95 Jordan who only played 17 games in the regular season shot .431 EFG%. 95/96 he was back at .525. his 94/95 numbers were easily the worst of his career (ignoring his Wizards years). His Bulls EFG% for his career was .518. His FT% was also 3% points below his average, 80% compared to 83%. He just wasn't "Jordan" in that short season joining the team late in the year.

They dont know the players, not only werent they old enough, if they were alive anyway, to be watching live but they dont even take the time to watch a couple of games now. Horace Grant was an undersized PF, whose status as a player was on par with...say Tristan Thompson. Valuable player, good role player, honest, competent at certain parts of the game. I'm gonna bother comparing him to the top PFs of the time, Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc Derrick Coleman would eat his heart out.

He was OK, made 4 All-Defensive NBA teams (2nd team each time), but yeah, he wasn't a top tier player. He was known for his goggles more than anything he did on the court.

[daswunderboy]

Lebron is the GOAT at asking for help. Can't beat that.

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.

Jordan liked to belittle Cartwright in the locker room. He’d imitate Cartwright’s unorthodox shooting style with wild exaggerated moves that left many of his teammates trying to stifle laughter when Cartwright was nearby. Cartwright would just look away and blame immaturity.

But Jordan went one step too far that first season. He was angry over the Bulls’ slow start and had already gone to Jerry Krause during the Western trip in November to ask that he make some trades.

“I need help,” he told Krause. Krause explained the Bulls had salary cap problems, which Jordan neither understood nor cared to hear about. So he made some decisions. One was that he would have to do just that much more himself. And to do that, he couldn’t have Cartwright fouling things up, especially late in the game.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

Thats not an article, thats from the book "The Jordan Rules". Now, lets go to actual Bulls' GM Jerry Krause "“I’ll say this about him, he never came to me and asked for other players. He never came to me and asked me to draft a player. He never came to me to ask me to trade for a player. Never once did that happen. Part of it was he thought he was so darn good he thought he could win without them, I’m sure of that…Michael was smart enough to understand the organization and he understood what we had to do as an organization…He never complained to me.”
boom down goes Frazier! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

Maybe the most mind boggling thing about that Bulls team is that Krause and ownership said "eh, 6 is enough, lets move on from this team". People rip Kawhi for "not running it back", but the Bulls ownership and management deciding to end that dynasty is the worst thing I've seen from a championship team.

[trueballer7]

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.



https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

Thats not an article, thats from the book "The Jordan Rules". Now, lets go to actual Bulls' GM Jerry Krause "“I’ll say this about him, he never came to me and asked for other players. He never came to me and asked me to draft a player. He never came to me to ask me to trade for a player. Never once did that happen. Part of it was he thought he was so darn good he thought he could win without them, I’m sure of that…Michael was smart enough to understand the organization and he understood what we had to do as an organization…He never complained to me.”
boom down goes Frazier! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

Maybe the most mind boggling thing about that Bulls team is that Krause and ownership said "eh, 6 is enough, lets move on from this team". People rip Kawhi for "not running it back", but the Bulls ownership and management deciding to end that dynasty is the worst thing I've seen from a championship team.

Krause wanted to get recognition for himself, which he felt both the squad and the general public were denying him, and Reinsdorf valued his frienship with him more than he valued the basketball team, which he always saw as an investment on a sport he didnt really care for. He'd give away all 6 Bulls' championships for a single succesful year with his baseball team, as he was on record saying.
Its not that rare though, people often forget how difficult it was to succeed, and become complacent.

[The4thHorseman]

Lebron is the GOAT at asking for help. Can't beat that.

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.

Jordan liked to belittle Cartwright in the locker room. He’d imitate Cartwright’s unorthodox shooting style with wild exaggerated moves that left many of his teammates trying to stifle laughter when Cartwright was nearby. Cartwright would just look away and blame immaturity.

But Jordan went one step too far that first season. He was angry over the Bulls’ slow start and had already gone to Jerry Krause during the Western trip in November to ask that he make some trades.

“I need help,” he told Krause. Krause explained the Bulls had salary cap problems, which Jordan neither understood nor cared to hear about. So he made some decisions. One was that he would have to do just that much more himself. And to do that, he couldn’t have Cartwright fouling things up, especially late in the game.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

Thats not an article, thats from the book "The Jordan Rules". Now, lets go to actual Bulls' GM Jerry Krause "“I’ll say this about him, he never came to me and asked for other players. He never came to me and asked me to draft a player. He never came to me to ask me to trade for a player. Never once did that happen. Part of it was he thought he was so darn good he thought he could win without them, I’m sure of that…Michael was smart enough to understand the organization and he understood what we had to do as an organization…He never complained to me.”
boom down goes Frazier! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

The article was written specifically to debunk what Krause said. He was asked 27yrs after the fact. Sam Smith wrote his book a year after MJ asked for help. I'll trust memories that were a year after the fact rather than 27yrs after the fact.

Your denial is quite funny though.

[The4thHorseman]

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

And Jordan came back with 17 games to go in the season, hardly game shape, so it's strange to say that the difference was Horace Grant.

94/95 Jordan who only played 17 games in the regular season shot .431 EFG%. 95/96 he was back at .525. his 94/95 numbers were easily the worst of his career (ignoring his Wizards years). His Bulls EFG% for his career was .518. His FT% was also 3% points below his average, 80% compared to 83%. He just wasn't "Jordan" in that short season joining the team late in the year.

They dont know the players, not only werent they old enough, if they were alive anyway, to be watching live but they dont even take the time to watch a couple of games now. Horace Grant was an undersized PF, whose status as a player was on par with...say Tristan Thompson. Valuable player, good role player, honest, competent at certain parts of the game. I'm gonna bother comparing him to the top PFs of the time, Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc Derrick Coleman would eat his heart out.

Tristan Thompson on the same level as Horace Grant????

[The4thHorseman]

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.



https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

Thats not an article, thats from the book "The Jordan Rules". Now, lets go to actual Bulls' GM Jerry Krause "“I’ll say this about him, he never came to me and asked for other players. He never came to me and asked me to draft a player. He never came to me to ask me to trade for a player. Never once did that happen. Part of it was he thought he was so darn good he thought he could win without them, I’m sure of that…Michael was smart enough to understand the organization and he understood what we had to do as an organization…He never complained to me.”
boom down goes Frazier! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

Maybe the most mind boggling thing about that Bulls team is that Krause and ownership said "eh, 6 is enough, lets move on from this team". People rip Kawhi for "not running it back", but the Bulls ownership and management deciding to end that dynasty is the worst thing I've seen from a championship team.

Phil wasn't coming back the following season. Neither was Pippen. MJ already said prior that he wouldn't play for any other coach but Phil.

Not sure Krause could have done anything to keep that starting 5 together for the following season.

[trueballer7]

Thats not an article, thats from the book "The Jordan Rules". Now, lets go to actual Bulls' GM Jerry Krause "“I’ll say this about him, he never came to me and asked for other players. He never came to me and asked me to draft a player. He never came to me to ask me to trade for a player. Never once did that happen. Part of it was he thought he was so darn good he thought he could win without them, I’m sure of that…Michael was smart enough to understand the organization and he understood what we had to do as an organization…He never complained to me.”
boom down goes Frazier! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

Maybe the most mind boggling thing about that Bulls team is that Krause and ownership said "eh, 6 is enough, lets move on from this team". People rip Kawhi for "not running it back", but the Bulls ownership and management deciding to end that dynasty is the worst thing I've seen from a championship team.

Phil wasn't coming back the following season. Neither was Pippen. MJ already said prior that he wouldn't play for any other coach but Phil.

Not sure Krause could have done anything to keep that starting 5 together for the following season.

Phil wasnt coming back, because Krause didnt want him to come back. He didnt even invite him to his daughters' wedding, when there were about 6000 other guests there. When they signed the last contract, he made it absolutely clear that "there is no possibility for another extension" and he even made it public.

[trueballer7]

According to this article referencing the early 1990 season, MJ asked for help too.



https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

Thats not an article, thats from the book "The Jordan Rules". Now, lets go to actual Bulls' GM Jerry Krause "“I’ll say this about him, he never came to me and asked for other players. He never came to me and asked me to draft a player. He never came to me to ask me to trade for a player. Never once did that happen. Part of it was he thought he was so darn good he thought he could win without them, I’m sure of that…Michael was smart enough to understand the organization and he understood what we had to do as an organization…He never complained to me.”
boom down goes Frazier! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

The article was written specifically to debunk what Krause said. He was asked 27yrs after the fact. Sam Smith wrote his book a year after MJ asked for help. I'll trust memories that were a year after the fact rather than 27yrs after the fact.

Your denial is quite funny though.

You'd just about trust anything, which is understandable. I sympathize with that

[70sFan]

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

And Jordan came back with 17 games to go in the season, hardly game shape, so it's strange to say that the difference was Horace Grant.

94/95 Jordan who only played 17 games in the regular season shot .431 EFG%. 95/96 he was back at .525. his 94/95 numbers were easily the worst of his career (ignoring his Wizards years). His Bulls EFG% for his career was .518. His FT% was also 3% points below his average, 80% compared to 83%. He just wasn't "Jordan" in that short season joining the team late in the year.

They dont know the players, not only werent they old enough, if they were alive anyway, to be watching live but they dont even take the time to watch a couple of games now. Horace Grant was an undersized PF, whose status as a player was on par with...say Tristan Thompson. Valuable player, good role player, honest, competent at certain parts of the game. I'm gonna bother comparing him to the top PFs of the time, Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc Derrick Coleman would eat his heart out.

You are blaming people for not watching games, then comparing Horace Grant to Tristan Thompson? Who actually don't watch games??

[trueballer7]

And Jordan came back with 17 games to go in the season, hardly game shape, so it's strange to say that the difference was Horace Grant.

94/95 Jordan who only played 17 games in the regular season shot .431 EFG%. 95/96 he was back at .525. his 94/95 numbers were easily the worst of his career (ignoring his Wizards years). His Bulls EFG% for his career was .518. His FT% was also 3% points below his average, 80% compared to 83%. He just wasn't "Jordan" in that short season joining the team late in the year.

They dont know the players, not only werent they old enough, if they were alive anyway, to be watching live but they dont even take the time to watch a couple of games now. Horace Grant was an undersized PF, whose status as a player was on par with...say Tristan Thompson. Valuable player, good role player, honest, competent at certain parts of the game. I'm gonna bother comparing him to the top PFs of the time, Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc Derrick Coleman would eat his heart out.

You are blaming people for not watching games, then comparing Horace Grant to Tristan Thompson? Who actually don't watch games??

I dont know who doesnt watch games, I know who doesnt read carefully. Did I compare Grant to Thompson? Or did I compare his status to that of Thompson? Or is that the same thing?

[70sFan]

They dont know the players, not only werent they old enough, if they were alive anyway, to be watching live but they dont even take the time to watch a couple of games now. Horace Grant was an undersized PF, whose status as a player was on par with...say Tristan Thompson. Valuable player, good role player, honest, competent at certain parts of the game. I'm gonna bother comparing him to the top PFs of the time, Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc Derrick Coleman would eat his heart out.

You are blaming people for not watching games, then comparing Horace Grant to Tristan Thompson? Who actually don't watch games??

I dont know who doesnt watch games, I know who doesnt read carefully. Did I compare Grant to Thompson? Or did I compare his status to that of Thompson? Or is that the same thing?

I don't know, better you tell. Grant was 10 times better player than Thompson and honestly, he's so far ahead of Tristan as a player that he might be actually closer to someone like Kemp than TT.

[trueballer7]

You are blaming people for not watching games, then comparing Horace Grant to Tristan Thompson? Who actually don't watch games??

I dont know who doesnt watch games, I know who doesnt read carefully. Did I compare Grant to Thompson? Or did I compare his status to that of Thompson? Or is that the same thing?

I don't know, better you tell. Grant was 10 times better player than Thompson and honestly, he's so far ahead of Tristan as a player that he might be actually closer to someone like Kemp than TT.

Why just 10 times better?

[70sFan]

I dont know who doesnt watch games, I know who doesnt read carefully. Did I compare Grant to Thompson? Or did I compare his status to that of Thompson? Or is that the same thing?

I don't know, better you tell. Grant was 10 times better player than Thompson and honestly, he's so far ahead of Tristan as a player that he might be actually closer to someone like Kemp than TT.

Why just 10 times better?

I have to learn how to not feed trolls...

[SF_Warriors]

They dont know the players, not only werent they old enough, if they were alive anyway, to be watching live but they dont even take the time to watch a couple of games now. Horace Grant was an undersized PF, whose status as a player was on par with...say Tristan Thompson. Valuable player, good role player, honest, competent at certain parts of the game. I'm gonna bother comparing him to the top PFs of the time, Barkley, Malone, Kemp etc Derrick Coleman would eat his heart out.

You are blaming people for not watching games, then comparing Horace Grant to Tristan Thompson? Who actually don't watch games??

I dont know who doesnt watch games, I know who doesnt read carefully. Did I compare Grant to Thompson? Or did I compare his status to that of Thompson? Or is that the same thing?

Ho Grant was closer to al horford than he is tristan thompson.

Would you say tristan is in the same status as horford? Because that is essentially the type of comparison you are making.
Or saying something like jae crowder is in the same status as robert covington.

Not a valid comparison imo. And if we compare skillsets and impact there is a vast difference...we can bring analytics into this but honestly we shouldn't have to.

[DrCoach]

lebron has been the best player in the finals 7 times now, jordan only made the finals 6 times playing inferior teams. lebron may also end up with 40k/10k/10k which is insane. lebron is the clear-cut goat and it's not even close.

He best players make their teammates better and WIN