2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3)

[TheDunc]

Anyone who doesn't have Mobley as the ROY at this point is either willfully ignorant or a casual with no understanding of basketball.

You're the one that's ignorant for this comment.

Barnes vs. Mobley is still very much a conversation at this stage for ROTY.

It honestly isn't. And if you think it is, you haven't been watching Mobley play.

Right now the only thing Barnes realistically has over Mobley are stats, and he is barely clinging on in that regard. Mobley's impact on the team is already well known. We are seeing how much better Cleveland is with Mobley on the floor compared to when he's off the floor. He's turning them into legitimate playoff contenders.

No one is denying that Barnes is the clear runner up. But he's not even close to being on Mobley's level at the moment.

Both are great players, Mobley winning Roy doesnt mean he will end up being the better player of the two anyways. I would give Roy to Mobley as of right now because of his defensive impact but if people think Barnes doesnt have as much defensive potential then their out to lunch. Barnes has legitimate potential to guard 1-5 spots in the future to go along with great scoring potential and court vision. That's one hell of a player

[INKtastic]

if only his teamates would shoot 100% for him...lol...solid night

Yeah certain Raptor fans love to do this stuff. As if other rookies wouldn't have more assist if their teammates hit more shots. But in his defense FVV shot 6-20 and Barnes defers (passes) to him a lot. But yeah we can say that about every single rookie. But Barnes did play well, especially because we're asking a lot of him. He's having to break his passive/pass first mindset and learn to become more of a scorer, which he's doing a phenomenal job doing.

Well to be fair to record an assist your teammates do have to make shots and not all rookies are pass first type players. Is it really hard to believe Barnes could average 6-7 assists a night if he was surrounded by better shooters? i dont think so because Barnes does have some of the best court vision in the league and he racks up assists without having the ball in his hands a whole lot

League tracks potential assists. Barnes averages 6.8 potential assists/game. Teammates would have to hit 100% of those for it to turn into 6.8 assists/game. If they hit them at the same rate is Chris Pauls potential assist turn into assists, his assists would go up from 3.3 to 3.6.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie

[QingJames]

Mobley is phenomenal but we do have to acknowledge how much he’s benefitting from Allen’s monstrous season and elite rim protection. Mobley would not look nearly as good on the defensive end if he had to spend significant time at C or if he had been drafted by Detroit, Houston, Raptors, Magic, etc.

Incredible defense at the PF but he really is getting a huge boost because of Allen and nobody seems to want to acknowledge that. You can’t take anything away from Mobley for having great teammates, just saying context is key here.

[yoyoboy]

You're the one that's ignorant for this comment.

Barnes vs. Mobley is still very much a conversation at this stage for ROTY.

It honestly isn't. And if you think it is, you haven't been watching Mobley play.

Right now the only thing Barnes realistically has over Mobley are stats, and he is barely clinging on in that regard. Mobley's impact on the team is already well known. We are seeing how much better Cleveland is with Mobley on the floor compared to when he's off the floor. He's turning them into legitimate playoff contenders.

No one is denying that Barnes is the clear runner up. But he's not even close to being on Mobley's level at the moment.

Both are great players, Mobley winning Roy doesnt mean he will end up being the better player of the two anyways. I would give Roy to Mobley as of right now because of his defensive impact but if people think Barnes doesnt have as much defensive potential then their out to lunch. Barnes has legitimate potential to guard 1-5 spots in the future to go along with great scoring potential and court vision. That's one hell of a player

Barnes has more offensive potential than Mobley but he definitely doesn’t have as much defensive potential. I mean Mobley as a rookie is one of the 5 or so best defenders in the game already. Barnes is currently below average on that end. Mobley is taller, longer, and has better defensive instincts. It’s kinda ridiculous to say Barnes has as much potential on that end.

If the situations were reversed and Raptors fans were the ones who had Mobley on their team transforming them from a bottom 5 defense to one of the best in the league and a winning team, I can only imagine how Raps fans would be acting right now.

[mcfly1204]

Mobley is phenomenal but we do have to acknowledge how much he’s benefitting from Allen’s monstrous season and elite rim protection. Mobley would not look nearly as good on the defensive end if he had to spend significant time at C or if he had been drafted by Detroit, Houston, Raptors, Magic, etc.

Incredible defense at the PF but he really is getting a huge boost because of Allen and nobody seems to want to acknowledge that. You can’t take anything away from Mobley for having great teammates, just saying context is key here.

Locally, we hear about it quite a bit. People have also begun to take notice of Love's increased effort on the defensive end. It really is crazy to think about how impact Mobley and Allen have been for that defense this season.

[PlatinumState]

BlowJob Boston could be Brandon Ingram lite down the line
Potential is there for him to be a 25 ppg scorer given enough pt

[TheDunc]

Yeah certain Raptor fans love to do this stuff. As if other rookies wouldn't have more assist if their teammates hit more shots. But in his defense FVV shot 6-20 and Barnes defers (passes) to him a lot. But yeah we can say that about every single rookie. But Barnes did play well, especially because we're asking a lot of him. He's having to break his passive/pass first mindset and learn to become more of a scorer, which he's doing a phenomenal job doing.

Well to be fair to record an assist your teammates do have to make shots and not all rookies are pass first type players. Is it really hard to believe Barnes could average 6-7 assists a night if he was surrounded by better shooters? i dont think so because Barnes does have some of the best court vision in the league and he racks up assists without having the ball in his hands a whole lot

League tracks potential assists. Barnes averages 6.8 potential assists/game. Teammates would have to hit 100% of those for it to turn into 6.8 assists/game. If they hit them at the same rate is Chris Pauls potential assist turn into assists, his assists would go up from 3.3 to 3.6.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie

Bring up all the stats you want, Barnes can average over 6-7 apg easily right now without a doubt but he would need the ball in his hands and better shooting around him. I watch every raptor game, he is usually the 5th option on the floor right now. Once OG is back and Barnes usage goes up i can guarantee you will be seeing Barnes racking up assists every game. Right now FVV is initiating the offense but once its Barnes and FVV is the recipient of Barnes passes expect Barnes to average alot more assists

[nikster]

It honestly isn't. And if you think it is, you haven't been watching Mobley play.

Right now the only thing Barnes realistically has over Mobley are stats, and he is barely clinging on in that regard. Mobley's impact on the team is already well known. We are seeing how much better Cleveland is with Mobley on the floor compared to when he's off the floor. He's turning them into legitimate playoff contenders.

No one is denying that Barnes is the clear runner up. But he's not even close to being on Mobley's level at the moment.

Both are great players, Mobley winning Roy doesnt mean he will end up being the better player of the two anyways. I would give Roy to Mobley as of right now because of his defensive impact but if people think Barnes doesnt have as much defensive potential then their out to lunch. Barnes has legitimate potential to guard 1-5 spots in the future to go along with great scoring potential and court vision. That's one hell of a player

Barnes has more offensive potential than Mobley but he definitely doesn’t have as much defensive potential. I mean Mobley as a rookie is one of the 5 or so best defenders in the game already. Barnes is currently below average on that end. Mobley is taller, longer, and has better defensive instincts. It’s kinda ridiculous to say Barnes has as much potential on that end.

If the situations were reversed and Raptors fans were the ones who had Mobley on their team transforming them from a bottom 5 defense to one of the best in the league and a winning team, I can only imagine how Raps fans would be acting right now.

I dont doubt Mobleys impact and that he is the better player so far, but this Cavs team is a lot better defensively then they were last year even without him. Last year they had 25th ranked D, with Allen on the floor and no Mobley this year they're defensive rating would place them top 5 last season

[TheDunc]

It honestly isn't. And if you think it is, you haven't been watching Mobley play.

Right now the only thing Barnes realistically has over Mobley are stats, and he is barely clinging on in that regard. Mobley's impact on the team is already well known. We are seeing how much better Cleveland is with Mobley on the floor compared to when he's off the floor. He's turning them into legitimate playoff contenders.

No one is denying that Barnes is the clear runner up. But he's not even close to being on Mobley's level at the moment.

Both are great players, Mobley winning Roy doesnt mean he will end up being the better player of the two anyways. I would give Roy to Mobley as of right now because of his defensive impact but if people think Barnes doesnt have as much defensive potential then their out to lunch. Barnes has legitimate potential to guard 1-5 spots in the future to go along with great scoring potential and court vision. That's one hell of a player

Barnes has more offensive potential than Mobley but he definitely doesn’t have as much defensive potential. I mean Mobley as a rookie is one of the 5 or so best defenders in the game already. Barnes is currently below average on that end. Mobley is taller, longer, and has better defensive instincts. It’s kinda ridiculous to say Barnes has as much potential on that end.

If the situations were reversed and Raptors fans were the ones who had Mobley on their team transforming them from a bottom 5 defense to one of the best in the league and a winning team, I can only imagine how Raps fans would be acting right now.

So because Mobley is the better defensive player right now it means he will be in the future? I never said Barnes will be the better defensive player of the two undoubtedly but he has that kind of potential whether you believe it or not. Yes Mobley is the better defensive player easily right now, we see Barnes being lost sometimes on D but the potential of Barnes is absolutely insane on that end. A player who has the potential to lock down 1-4 positions and defend C's too is special.

I saw Kawhi Leonard play for the raptors and Barnes has more potential then Leonard on that end. If Barnes can be a better defender then Kawhi and Mobley can be a better defender then KG/Duncan, i guess it comes down to what you're looking for instead of who's actually better. There is no doubt Mobley is the better defender right now and has goat potential on that end, the thing is Barnes has that too but just isnt as far along at this point. Not every player has the same trajectory

[NYPiston]

If Cade was an explosive athlete he'd be insanely good. I think he will struggle with consistency because he relies on making difficult shots but hes so good at just playing basketball.

He's not an explosive athlete but he has little issue getting to scoring spots. When he plays aggressive and drives the ball, he's been unstoppable on a lot of occasions so he's actually getting a lot of easy shots.

The biggest issue with Cade, and keep in mind that he's a rookie playing for a horrible coach, is that he differs to others too often, does that thing when he glides to the corner or settles for threes that aren't in the flow of the offense. When he decides to grab the ball and take over, he can do pretty much anything he wants out there.
The sooner it becomes Cade's team and not Jerami Grant's team, he's going to be big time and the team will win more.

[PhilBlackson]

I'm not sure why some of my other Rap bredren lol can't accept it but as of right now, Mobley does look like clearly the better player and there's no shame in that, the kid looks like a guaranteed future top 10 player, to potentially/probably top 5 at some point in his career. It's not coincidence that multiple people are watching him and getting this Tim Duncan like vibe to him, he just has that type of play and impact and when is it an insult to not be as good as a player like Timmy?! lol few players all time will ever but that's the kind of player and potential you're dealing with. Heck Mobley is the guy Masai was rumored to be trying to trade up for but couldn't make it happen and now you see why. It doesn't mean Scottie isn't a GREAT prospect himself or that he can't become a great player too but the assessment is being made in the moment and Evan is just ahead right now and there's no reason to think he will stagnate.

As for Scottie, it's unbelievably intriguing to think what he may become as well even if he doesn't quite catch Evan. The kid was supposed to be this Draymond like player and now he's shocking people with how much better he is than expected. He took a MASSIVE jump since college in a single off-season, with those physical tools, there's only a couple of names that remind me of a similar story but I'll not get too ahead of myself. It has to be pointed out that though to combine that with where he's landed and the job they've done with MUCH rawer and MUCH less talented prospects (ie/ Pascal & OG), he's not a near lock for top 10 or 5 like Evan buuuuut I honestly don't rule it out and why it's fair to be excited as a Rap fan.

Both OG and Pascal were ridiculously raw prospects. Coming in Siakam looked like he was going to be an "energy" big in the (hopeful) mode at the time to replace/become Amir Johnson, now he's a borderline all-star type that can put up 22+ppg. OG was essentially another PJ Tucker type, defend and hit corner 3s, dribbled like a 5 yr old with the ball in front of him lol now he's slowly becoming one of the better (didn't say best) young SFs in the league, Barnes is battling with a kid being likened to Duncan for ROY lol, he's light years ahead of those 2 coming to TO that they're really not comparible as prospects. I preface by saying I'm NOT claiming Barnes will hit their levels but I do think he could POTENTIALLY develop how you seen with Kawhi & Giannis - not to become them but follow an exponential growth curve when look at the huge leap he took in a single summer, combine it with a franchise synonmous with development... that we MIGHT have to re-open this conversation (and I'm sure Rap fans will ensure of it lol eyeroll) but that's potential....and right NOW though Mobley IS actually the better player and again there's no shame in admitting that.

[mcfly1204]

If Cade was an explosive athlete he'd be insanely good. I think he will struggle with consistency because he relies on making difficult shots but hes so good at just playing basketball.

He's not an explosive athlete but he has little issue getting to scoring spots. When he plays aggressive and drives the ball, he's been unstoppable on a lot of occasions so he's actually getting a lot of easy shots.

The biggest issue with Cade, and keep in mind that he's a rookie playing for a horrible coach, is that he differs to others too often, does that thing when he glides to the corner or settles for threes that aren't in the flow of the offense. When he decides to grab the ball and take over, he can do pretty much anything he wants out there.
The sooner it becomes Cade's team and not Jerami Grant's team, he's going to be big time and the team will win more.

I still think one of the better comparisons\ceilings for Cade is Brandon Roy. Athletic enough, but just a smart overall player who can do multiple thinks at an above average level.

[NYPiston]

I still think one of the better comparisons\ceilings for Cade is Brandon Roy. Athletic enough, but just a smart overall player who can do multiple thinks at an above average level.

Good comparison, I see a lot of Roy in him too who also had the clutch gene as well.
People forget how good Roy was before the injuries. Man, Portland has had some incredibly bad luck with potentially elite young players and career altering injuries.

[K_chile22]

Yeah I normally don't change my views on guys this early, a ton can change, but it's becoming pretty clear Mobley should have gone number 1.

Generally there are a lot of of guys who have their best season their rookie year and kind of plateau while guys who people wrote off pass them by, but with Mobley it seems unlikely that happens.

[toooskies]

Both are great players, Mobley winning Roy doesnt mean he will end up being the better player of the two anyways. I would give Roy to Mobley as of right now because of his defensive impact but if people think Barnes doesnt have as much defensive potential then their out to lunch. Barnes has legitimate potential to guard 1-5 spots in the future to go along with great scoring potential and court vision. That's one hell of a player

Barnes has more offensive potential than Mobley but he definitely doesn’t have as much defensive potential. I mean Mobley as a rookie is one of the 5 or so best defenders in the game already. Barnes is currently below average on that end. Mobley is taller, longer, and has better defensive instincts. It’s kinda ridiculous to say Barnes has as much potential on that end.

If the situations were reversed and Raptors fans were the ones who had Mobley on their team transforming them from a bottom 5 defense to one of the best in the league and a winning team, I can only imagine how Raps fans would be acting right now.

I dont doubt Mobleys impact and that he is the better player so far, but this Cavs team is a lot better defensively then they were last year even without him. Last year they had 25th ranked D, with Allen on the floor and no Mobley this year they're defensive rating would place them top 5 last season

Can't compare years like that because league scoring efficiency is way down this year, mostly due to fewer fouls and worse 3-point shooting.

But also, Mobley is an amazing PF right now but just kind of an average C-- his biggest issue right now is strength and even backup Cs can bully him a bit. When Allen is out, Mobley has to play C, whereas when Mobley is out Allen plays his normal position. So let's take that bit into account when evaluating how they're doing.

[LoveMyRaps]

At the end of the season voters are going to look at it the "basic" statistical categories...

PPG: Barnes
APG: Barnes
RPG: Tie
SPG: Barnes
BPG: Mobley
FG%: Barnes
3PT%: Barnes
PER: Barnes
TS%: Tie
WS: Tie
BPM: Mobley
ORTG: Barnes
DRTG: Mobley

You're kidding yourselves if you think they're gonna do a deep dive into the "analytics" to figure out which rookie had the better season of the two.

They will however factor in team wins - at the moment Cavs are well ahead of the Raptors, and because of that I'd give the award to Mobley myself.

But to suggest there is no conversation to be ahead and that Mobley has the award on lock is comical and straight up ignorant.

Both have played like future superstars and both have HOF potential. If you don't agree with that statement you just haven't seen Barnes play.

Read on Twitter

[Jadoogar]

Yeah I normally don't change my views on guys this early, a ton can change, but it's becoming pretty clear Mobley should have gone number 1.

Generally there are a lot of of guys who have their best season their rookie year and kind of plateau while guys who people wrote off pass them by, but with Mobley it seems unlikely that happens.

Several media people were saying they thought Mobley could be the best player in the draft. Hollinger said he had him just a sliver behind Cade. I don't understand why he dropped to #3 when most people had him #2.

[orlando_joe]

Well to be fair to record an assist your teammates do have to make shots and not all rookies are pass first type players. Is it really hard to believe Barnes could average 6-7 assists a night if he was surrounded by better shooters? i dont think so because Barnes does have some of the best court vision in the league and he racks up assists without having the ball in his hands a whole lot

League tracks potential assists. Barnes averages 6.8 potential assists/game. Teammates would have to hit 100% of those for it to turn into 6.8 assists/game. If they hit them at the same rate is Chris Pauls potential assist turn into assists, his assists would go up from 3.3 to 3.6.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie

Bring up all the stats you want, Barnes can average over 6-7 apg easily right now without a doubt but he would need the ball in his hands and better shooting around him. I watch every raptor game, he is usually the 5th option on the floor right now. Once OG is back and Barnes usage goes up i can guarantee you will be seeing Barnes racking up assists every game. Right now FVV is initiating the offense but once its Barnes and FVV is the recipient of Barnes passes expect Barnes to average alot more assists

so what you are going with is if raptors play with no pg barnes gets more assists ..if the play with no center he gets more rb...and i bet if he took all the shots he gets more points to...wont win many games but sure i see that

[Jadoogar]

At the end of the season voters are going to look at it the "basic" statistical categories...

PPG: Barnes
APG: Barnes
RPG: Tie
SPG: Barnes
BPG: Mobley
FG%: Barnes
3PT%: Barnes
PER: Barnes
TS%: Tie
WS: Tie
BPM: Mobley
ORTG: Barnes
DRTG: Mobley

You're kidding yourselves if you think they're gonna do a deep dive into the "analytics" to figure out which rookie had the better season of the two.

They will however factor in team wins - at the moment Cavs are well ahead of the Raptors, and because of that I'd give the award to Mobley myself.

But to suggest there is no conversation to be ahead and that Mobley has the award on lock is comical and straight up ignorant.

Both have played like future superstars and both have HOF potential. If you don't agree with that statement you just haven't seen Barnes play.

Read on Twitter

nah. The ROY award normally goes to the player with best stats because the top rookies are generally on bad teams so no one actually watches them. This year, the top 2 rookies are on average to good teams so the media is watching them more so they can clearly see their impact and won't just have to rely on raw stats.

Mobley is the best rookie this year by a good margin.

[cavsfanatic]

Yeah I normally don't change my views on guys this early, a ton can change, but it's becoming pretty clear Mobley should have gone number 1.

Generally there are a lot of of guys who have their best season their rookie year and kind of plateau while guys who people wrote off pass them by, but with Mobley it seems unlikely that happens.

Several media people were saying they thought Mobley could be the best player in the draft. Hollinger said he had him just a sliver behind Cade. I don't understand why he dropped to #3 when most people had him #2.

Mobley wanted nothing to do with Houston because KPJ was there.
Conflict going back to the USC days.