2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[MoneyTalks41890]

Worth pointing out that this team as listed is a bit of a fiction at this point because they haven't played together yet.

Hartenstein has missed 19 of 45 games
Chet has missed 35 of 45 games
Caruso has missed 17 of 45 games

They definitely have deep talent but they haven't really had access to it all year.

OKC 6-6 on games where one of Hart or Chet isn’t playing, which is 6 of their 8 losses overall.

You mean both and, not one or.

Yeah thanks

[Infinite Llamas]

every team gives up layups every single game. some more, some less. the point of advanced stats is to look at the big picture, not to make empty statements on forums. if jokic was so bad on defense, he'd be getting exposed all day, every day in every game. as it we know, that's not what happens

folks are losing their mind tryin' to hate on Big Jok. what i mean is, it'd be pretty hard to understate just how bad guys like MPJ and Murray have been defending these past couple of months. AG has also been just abysmal defensively ever since he came back from a long injury, he'll turn it around on D but currenly he's getting blown by every single opponent more often than not. even someone like Watson, whose by far the Nuggets best shotblocker and makes highlight defensive plays, makes egregious decisions and positioninig mistakes very often. Braun has basically been their most consistent defender and honestly their 2nd best player this season and if Braun is your 2nd best player well...ur team just isn't that good

they're playing awful as a team on D, Jokic is certainly a part of these issues but guys are just missing coverages and doing boneheaded things on D on basically every other possession. yeah, it looks bad when he concedes layups (can't afford to get ticky-tacky fouls as the Nuggets lose by like 3 pts every min his off the floor lol) but his guys are putting him in impossible situations

i guess ppl are hating and not even watching the games, otherwise they'd know better
i'd fire Malone honestly, he's just a bad coach that's benefited from the Nuggets drafting Jokic, otherwise he'd be an assistant somewhere rn. his schemes defensively are either awful or it might be the players are just doing whatever and not even listening to him. both are fireable offenses.

give Jokic Lonzo Ball and Ayo instead of Murray and MPj, give him Deandre Hunter and Mobley and you'll hear those same posters clamoring about his defense, crowning him a top 5 ever player following a couple more championships


edit: you have teams like the Lakers with AD playing at a fringe MVP level ,alongside a 40 year old LBJ and some capable role player and they still won less games than these Nuggets. it's very hard to build a complete roster, with no bad contracts, getting bang for your buck all around with the the CBA, 2nd apron and that holds especially true for small market teams like Denver

Nuggets are stuck with Murray's albatross contract and a few bad moves (the Cancar and NNaji bizarre extentions) and having to give up 2nd rd,,,,. picks to cut Reggie Jackson, all of which have killed their ability to make any real moves this season

get that man some proper help

You can say that about Giannis too if Middleton wouldn’t be injured or Lopez getting old you play with who you got not who is going to hide your deficiencies with jokic and nuggets is rim protection.
Jokic teammates are not as bad as some on this forum think they are one of the best shooting teams jokic and Westbrook are passing to someone for all those assists. Their D is the problem and that ain’t changing even if you replace Murray

Jokic isn’t a great rim protector but that isn’t why they lose games. They lose games because their perimeter defense is nonexistent and you have two pylons out there with Murray and Porter Jr. Rim protection is the least of their defensive issues right now.

[lethalizer]

What do you mean?

Caruso
Dort
J. Will
Chet
Hartenstein

Joe
Wallace
Wiggins
Mitchell
etc

That team might be the best defensive team in the league and has lots of shooting around J Will plus his shot creation and Chet's shooting ability. That is for sure a team that's at least play-in / borderline play in.

Worth pointing out that this team as listed is a bit of a fiction at this point because they haven't played together yet.

Hartenstein has missed 19 of 45 games
Chet has missed 35 of 45 games
Caruso has missed 17 of 45 games

They definitely have deep talent but they haven't really had access to it all year.

OKC 6-6 on games where one of Hart or Chet isn’t playing, which is 6 of their 8 losses overall.

To simplify this and make it clearer:

OKC is 23-2 when Hartenstein plays.

OKC is 8-1 when Chet plays a full game(exited the Warrior loss due to injury, he had played 5 mins in that game).

Chet and Hartenstein were never active at the same time.

Conclusion: OKC is 31-3 when they have one of their two quality bigs on the court for a full game.

[Exp0sed]

every team gives up layups every single game. some more, some less. the point of advanced stats is to look at the big picture, not to make empty statements on forums. if jokic was so bad on defense, he'd be getting exposed all day, every day in every game. as it we know, that's not what happens

/quote]
You can say that about Giannis too if Middleton wouldn’t be injured or Lopez getting old you play with who you got not who is going to hide your deficiencies with jokic and nuggets is rim protection.
Jokic teammates are not as bad as some on this forum think they are one of the best shooting teams jokic and Westbrook are passing to someone for all those assists. Their D is the problem and that ain’t changing even if you replace Murray

we are saying that tho, ur kinda making my point for me

does anyone think Giannis isn't a top 3 player? he's playing alongside a top 75 player ever (albeit a little over the hill) and few good vets and has less wins than the Nuggets while playing in the East

about ur hypothetical i strongly disagree, both MPJ and Murray have played their entire careers next to Jokic, trade MPJ to the Nets and watch him get relegated to the bench real fast, Murray had a decent offensive stretch lately but that's behind him now and even we he was hot he was making awful decisions, showed poor I.Q and shot selection and played no defense

the Nuggets D is indeed their problem but it's not because of Jokic's poor rim protection etc.

fwiw, I have SGA first and have had him first for a while because of the huge gap in team record but I also watch the games and see how poorly the "others" (on the Nuggets) are playing, especially on D. guys missing assignments left and right, poor effort, boneheaded decisions, awful box-outs etc.

ppl won't recognize this until either Jokic gets some real help or his current help switches teams and get exposed

dude is still the only MVP to have never played with another all-star, u realize they're starting Russel WB haha. WB has been decent but that should tell u all u need to know

[Wigginstime]

about ur hypothetical i strongly disagree, both MPJ and Murray have played their entire careers next to Jokic, trade MPJ to the Nets and watch him get relegated to the bench real fast, Murray had a decent offensive stretch lately but that's behind him now and even we he was hot he was making awful decisions, showed poor I.Q and shot selection and played no defense

The only player to have left Denver and get perceived as "better" is Hartenstein. That is because prior to leaving Denver his on/off court performance was compared to Jokic...

On the contrary you have

Will Barton - Denvers 2nd leading scorer in 2022. Left Denver and was out of league at age 32
Monte Morris - Promising guard averaging 30mpg who left Denver and has been on 4 teams in 3 years and plays 13mpg in PHX
KCP - At 31 years old, he is having career lows in Orlando after leaving Denver
Brown - At 27 Got $40M/2yr contract after leaving Denver and is now discussing buyouts with Toronto after they have been unable to trade him

[Infinite Llamas]

about ur hypothetical i strongly disagree, both MPJ and Murray have played their entire careers next to Jokic, trade MPJ to the Nets and watch him get relegated to the bench real fast, Murray had a decent offensive stretch lately but that's behind him now and even we he was hot he was making awful decisions, showed poor I.Q and shot selection and played no defense

The only player to have left Denver and get perceived as "better" is Hartenstein. That is because prior to leaving Denver his on/off court performance was compared to Jokic...

On the contrary you have

Will Barton - Denvers 2nd leading scorer in 2022. Left Denver and was out of league at age 32
Monte Morris - Promising guard averaging 30mpg who left Denver and has been on 4 teams in 3 years and plays 13mpg in PHX
KCP - At 31 years old, he is having career lows in Orlando after leaving Denver
Brown - At 27 Got $40M/2yr contract after leaving Denver and is now discussing buyouts with Toronto after they have been unable to trade him

Beasley has been somewhat successful but he just can’t seem to find a home. Mercenary gunner off the bench.

But yeah, Jokic gets guys paid and then they fizzle out of the league.

[Wolfgang630]

Joker won’t win mvp. It’ll be a top 2 season to never win MVP. It’s not his fault. Jimal Murray and MPJ have let Jokic down.

[RRR3]

KCP has been an elite role player for a very long time, most of it without Jokic, but now we’re giving Jokic the credit for his skills because he’s having an off shooting season? Jokic Stans are unhinged.

[Special_Puppy]

KCP has been an elite role player for a very long time, most of it without Jokic, but now we’re giving Jokic the credit for his skills because he’s having an off shooting season? Jokic Stans are unhinged.

I have valuations of every player in the NBA since 2015 based on a composite of advanced stats. In 2023, KCP had his best season since 2018 in the composite. So I don't think its crazy to suggest that Jokic brought out the best in KCP even if his problem in Orlando is because he's shooting way worse from 3 (even on wide open shots)

[BigGargamel]

KCP has been an elite role player for a very long time, most of it without Jokic, but now we’re giving Jokic the credit for his skills because he’s having an off shooting season? Jokic Stans are unhinged.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence KCP's play has fallen off a cliff immediately after leaving Denver. Just like it was a coincidence the same thing happened to Bruce Brown, Will Barton, Facu Compazzo, Bones Hyland, etc etc etc etc.

We're just "Jokic Stans". Your whole posting shtick is old. We get it, you don't like Jokic. Get some new material.

[RRR3]

KCP has been an elite role player for a very long time, most of it without Jokic, but now we’re giving Jokic the credit for his skills because he’s having an off shooting season? Jokic Stans are unhinged.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence KCP's play has fallen off a cliff immediately after leaving Denver. Just like it was a coincidence the same thing happened to Bruce Brown, Will Barton, Facu Compazzo, Bones Hyland, etc etc etc etc.

We're just "Jokic Stans". Your whole posting shtick is old. We get it, you don't like Jokic. Get some new material.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence KCP played great on the Lakers without Jokic He was literally the 3rd best player on a title team was Jokic helping him from another team? You're also making stuff up about Bruce Brown, he had better statistical seasons production wise BEFORE playing with Jokic. At least be honest if you want me to think you're not a stan.

[canada_dry]

Been a disasterclass from jokic here in the 2nd half of the 4th

[Jaqua92]

Been a disasterclass from jokic here in the 2nd half of the 4th

Out of rhythm all night, foul trouble early on

[canada_dry]

Been a disasterclass from jokic here in the 2nd half of the 4th

Out of rhythm all night, foul trouble early on

Yeah.

Less minutes should mean more energy to actually try to defend the rim though no? None of that here. At all. Idk how much rhythm is needed to try.

[canada_dry]

Overall not a good showing for his mvp case in a primetime matchup, in msg no less.

[SpurNani]

A 3rd straight loss for “MVP” Jokic

But those stats tho

[JustBuzzin]

SGA close thread

[Jaqua92]

KCP has been an elite role player for a very long time, most of it without Jokic, but now we’re giving Jokic the credit for his skills because he’s having an off shooting season? Jokic Stans are unhinged.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence KCP's play has fallen off a cliff immediately after leaving Denver. Just like it was a coincidence the same thing happened to Bruce Brown, Will Barton, Facu Compazzo, Bones Hyland, etc etc etc etc.

We're just "Jokic Stans". Your whole posting shtick is old. We get it, you don't like Jokic. Get some new material.

It's outrageous coming from OKC fans. What has SGA won to justify the leverage?

[scrabbarista]

OKC doesn't lose with Hartenstein. Book it.

[canada_dry]

KCP has been an elite role player for a very long time, most of it without Jokic, but now we’re giving Jokic the credit for his skills because he’s having an off shooting season? Jokic Stans are unhinged.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence KCP's play has fallen off a cliff immediately after leaving Denver. Just like it was a coincidence the same thing happened to Bruce Brown, Will Barton, Facu Compazzo, Bones Hyland, etc etc etc etc.

We're just "Jokic Stans". Your whole posting shtick is old. We get it, you don't like Jokic. Get some new material.

It's outrageous coming from OKC fans. What has SGA won to justify the leverage?

The 2025 MVP.