2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[Impuniti]

The idea that this is the 2nd greatest RS of all time is beyond comical and flat out insulting to a lot of other players and teams. His team finished 10th in the league and are the 10th best defensively I believe. Westbrook got straight up embarrassed in almost every big game vs the top teams and lost 10/12 or 9/11 of them. Played garbage defense to the point where a big like D Jordan contested more 3s than a starting PG. I didn't even know that would be possible until this season.

Truth is if WB would have sacrificed this fantastic individual awards, his team wouldn't be 10th in the league defensively but 4-6 and be one of the legit elite defensive teams. That would have meant less ppg, apg & rpg, but he could have focused more defensively to make OKC a tight nut to crack.

I'm not going to lie, I'm enjoying and expecting him to get completely exposed in the PS by playing the exact same way he did in RS. Saying this is the 2nd GOAT RS is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on realgm, which makes games like tonight satisfying to see. He'll go off in one of the upcoming games and people will clamor MVP triple double machine as Rockets breeze on the next round though.

Great seasons rely playing great and improving your team mates.. which doesn't happen when you have by far the highest usg % of all time, nor does it when your bigs can build confidence but instead box out so you can get another triple double. Or when you get spanked by the top teams in the league, both from a team level and individual level.

But you know.. triple doubles.

When I think of WB, I think the ending scene in the Prestige. I won't spoil it much, but it's about sacrifice, and that kind of speech is something that he would need to hear to maybe get it through his brain on what it means to be successful as a team.

[Dupp]

The idea that this is the 2nd greatest RS of all time is beyond comical and flat out insulting to a lot of other players and teams. His team finished 10th in the league and are the 10th best defensively I believe. Westbrook got straight up embarrassed in almost every big game vs the top teams and lost 10/12 or 9/11 of them. Played garbage defense to the point where a big like D Jordan contested more 3s than a starting PG. I didn't even know that would be possible until this season.

Truth is if WB would have sacrificed this fantastic individual awards, his team wouldn't be 10th in the league defensively but 4-6 and be one of the legit elite defensive teams. That would have meant less ppg, apg & rpg, but he could have focused more defensively to make OKC a tight nut to crack.

I'm not going to lie, I'm enjoying and expecting him to get completely exposed in the PS by playing the exact same way he did in RS. Saying this is the 2nd GOAT RS is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on realgm, which makes games like tonight satisfying to see. He'll go off in one of the upcoming games and people will clamor MVP triple double machine as Rockets breeze on the next round though.

Great seasons rely playing great and improving your team mates.. which doesn't happen when you have by far the highest usg % of all time, nor does it when your bigs can build confidence but instead box out so you can get another triple double. Or when you get spanked by the top teams in the league, both from a team level and individual level.

But you know.. triple doubles.

When I think of WB, I think the ending scene in the Prestige. I won't spoil it much, but it's about sacrifice, and that kind of speech is something that he would need to hear to maybe get it through his brain on what it means to be successful as a team.

Is this true? That is insane.

[Impuniti]

The idea that this is the 2nd greatest RS of all time is beyond comical and flat out insulting to a lot of other players and teams. His team finished 10th in the league and are the 10th best defensively I believe. Westbrook got straight up embarrassed in almost every big game vs the top teams and lost 10/12 or 9/11 of them. Played garbage defense to the point where a big like D Jordan contested more 3s than a starting PG. I didn't even know that would be possible until this season.

Truth is if WB would have sacrificed this fantastic individual awards, his team wouldn't be 10th in the league defensively but 4-6 and be one of the legit elite defensive teams. That would have meant less ppg, apg & rpg, but he could have focused more defensively to make OKC a tight nut to crack.

I'm not going to lie, I'm enjoying and expecting him to get completely exposed in the PS by playing the exact same way he did in RS. Saying this is the 2nd GOAT RS is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on realgm, which makes games like tonight satisfying to see. He'll go off in one of the upcoming games and people will clamor MVP triple double machine as Rockets breeze on the next round though.

Great seasons rely playing great and improving your team mates.. which doesn't happen when you have by far the highest usg % of all time, nor does it when your bigs can build confidence but instead box out so you can get another triple double. Or when you get spanked by the top teams in the league, both from a team level and individual level.

But you know.. triple doubles.

When I think of WB, I think the ending scene in the Prestige. I won't spoil it much, but it's about sacrifice, and that kind of speech is something that he would need to hear to maybe get it through his brain on what it means to be successful as a team.

Is this true? That is insane.

Yup, it's one of the most jarring stats of this season. But you know, 2nd GOAT RS of all time.

[zimpy27]

We have all the data in now so we can take a look at what Westbrook accomplished this year in comparison to other seasons in NBA history.

31.6/10.7/10.4
97.8 pace
30.6 PER
#3 (Points Scored + Points Assisted) [PSPA] season of all time (behind 2017 Harden and 1973 Tiny Archibald)
Led league in PPG
Triple Double Record for a single season (42)
#1 BPM season in NBA history
#1 VORP season in NBA history
First man in NBA history to lead the league in scoring while also averaging a triple double
First man in NBA history to average a triple double and do so at a sub-100 pace
First man in NBA history to average a triple double and do so with 30+ PER
10th man in NBA history to have a 30+ PER season
2nd man in NBA history to average 30/10/10
Possibly the #1 PSPA season of all time adjusted for pace


Just to help put things into perspective, here's how Westbrook's BPM and VORP stack up with the best seasons of LeBron, Jordan, and Curry (Wilt does not have BPM/VORP stats).

VORP
12.41 = Westbrook 2017
11.98 = Jordan 1989
11.81 = Jordan 1988 (MVP)
11.57 = LeBron 2009 (MVP)
10.89 = LeBron 2010 (MVP)
10.12 = Jordan 1990
10.09 = LeBron 2008
09.81 = Curry 2016 (MVP)
09.80 = Jordan 1991 (MVP)

BPM
15.50 = Westbrook 2017
12.99 = LeBron 2009 (MVP)
12.56 = Jordan 1989
12.53 = LeBron 2010 (MVP)
12.45 = Curry 2016 (MVP)
12.17 = Jordan 1988 (MVP)
11.56 = LeBron 2013 (MVP)
11.23 = LeBron 2008


Given all of this information, taken together, I think this is likely one of the Top-2 all-time seasons (particularly on offense) in the history of the sport. It appears to be better than any Jordan, LeBron or Curry season. And that is saying a lot.

I think that the only season in NBA history that might match or exceed this season by Westbrook is Wilt's 1961-62 campaign. That year looks like this:

50.4/25.7/2.4
131.1 pace
31.7 PER (2nd highest PER season in NBA history; does not include blocks/steals/turnovers)
#4 PSPA season
Unknown BPM
Unknown VORP

Adjusting Wilt's 1961-62 stats to Westbrook's pace gives you these averages:
37.6/19.2/1.8


An argument could likely also be made for Wilt's 1962-63 season being the best ever NBA season, as his PER was even higher that year (31.82, an NBA record) than it was in 1961-62. But the raw stats of the 1961-62 season are slightly more impressive.

This gives you an idea of how incredible Westbrook's season was. It appears to be a Top-2 (or Top-3, given Wilt's 1962-63 campaign) season in NBA history, and he averaged a triple double and he shattered the BPM single-season record, and so forth.

I don't know if Westbrook will win the MVP, but I feel very good that this season by him will remain one of the greatest seasons in NBA history for a very, very long time.

If anything, Westbrooks year is a black eye for all these individual advanced stat measures. They reflect more a players role and usage than the individuals skills or talents, which means they don't offer a way to see players on an even field.

[HotRocks34]

Saying this is the 2nd GOAT RS is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on realgm

So sad. I mentioned Gulliver and the Lilliputians in a recent post, and I do sometimes get that kind-of "Einstein vs kindergartners" feel. People need to grasp that just because they may not be not up-to-speed on data and history, that doesn't mean the rest of the board is in a similar place.

I've already listed all of the relevant statistics. And I've already made this claim, which I will happily wait to see refuted:
No one, for the rest of the time the NBA exists, will ever have a season with these parameters again:

30/10/10 average
Sub-100 pace
30+ PER

I will wait for anyone to have such a season again. It will never happen.

Anyways, let's step beyond there. Let's go to people who write about sports for a living. New York Times, what do you think about possible best NBA seasons in history?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/sports/russell-westbrook-greatest-season-sports.html

Summary to save you the click:

Wilt 1961-62
Westbrook 2016-17

...which is exactly what I said in my first post on this subject that everyone keeps quoting. And no, I did not consult the Times before I made my post.

Some of us know some things. We really do.

Now, how about players. What do they think?

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/scottie-pippen-says-russell-westbrook-season-greatest-ive-ever-seen
T-Mac: ...may be the greatest single season performance I've ever seen
Pippen: It's the greatest I've ever seen


http://www.obsev.com/sports/blake-griffin-russell-westbrook-had-best-season-ive-ever-seen-deserves-mvp.html
Blake Griffin: Yes (this is the best individual season I've ever seen)


Pick up the pace, fellas.

Pick up the pace.

[HotRocks34]

Back to the subject of the thread. This Houston Rockets blog claims to have charted the votes so far:

http://www.thedreamshake.com/2017/4/14/15298924/with-32-mvp-votes-counted-russell-westbrook-james-harden-showdown-is-close

This is updated through Monday, April 17, 2017.

Here are the approximate point totals and first place votes.

Westbrook -------> 512 (38)
Harden -----------> 441 (17)

Kawhi has 3 first place votes, LeBron 2. Apparently.


There are 100 voters this year. 60 votes (at least the top of the ticket) have been counted. 40 more votes yet to be known.

If those figures are correct, then Harden is going to need an overwhelming number of the remaining First Place Votes to come in for him in order to win the award. Something like 30/40, or maybe even more. Of course, some voters may leave one candidate off of their ballot (say, vote for Harden #1 and not vote for Westbrook in their top 5) completely. That would skew things.

But if you assume that most voters have Westbrook and Harden 1-2, and you assume that the Rockets blog above is about right, then things are looking pretty good for Westbrook at the moment.

Points awarded for what place on the ballot looks like this:

1st place = 10 points
2nd place = 07 points
3rd place = 05 points
4th place = 03 points
5th place = 01 point

[LarsV8]

So sad. I mentioned Gulliver and the Lilliputians in a recent post, and I do sometimes get that kind-of "Einstein vs kindergartners" feel. People need to grasp that just because they may not be not up-to-speed on data and history, that doesn't mean the rest of the board is in a similar place.

I've already listed all of the relevant statistics. And I've already made this claim, which I will happily wait to see refuted:
No one, for the rest of the time the NBA exists, will ever have a season with these parameters again:

30/10/10 average
Sub-100 pace
30+ PER

I will wait for anyone to have such a season again. It will never happen.

Uniqueness =/ greatest

What you are celebrating is usage, which explains all of your arbitrary benchmarks.

Stat padding at the cost of your teammates, is not greatness, its selfishness, especially with all these silly videos showing the funneling of rebounds to Westbrook, and completely ignoring defenders to nab even more rebounds.

Yes, you are right, you will probably not see this volume of statistics in the future, not because it is some achievement, but because it is just not smart basketball.

Anyways, let's step beyond there. Let's go to people who write about sports for a living. New York Times, what do you think about possible best NBA seasons in history?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/sports/russell-westbrook-greatest-season-sports.html

Summary to save you the click:

Wilt 1961-62
Westbrook 2016-17

...which is exactly what I said in my first post on this subject that everyone keeps quoting. And no, I did not consult the Times before I made my post.

Some of us know some things. We really do.

Now, how about players. What do they think?

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/scottie-pippen-says-russell-westbrook-season-greatest-ive-ever-seen
T-Mac: ...may be the greatest single season performance I've ever seen
Pippen: It's the greatest I've ever seen


http://www.obsev.com/sports/blake-griffin-russell-westbrook-had-best-season-ive-ever-seen-deserves-mvp.html
Blake Griffin: Yes (this is the best individual season I've ever seen)


Pick up the pace, fellas.

Pick up the pace.

Yea, there is a large number of people who can't differentiate efficiency from usage, nothing really new here.

Your "appeal to authority" argument is a logical fallacy.

[HotRocks34]

Your "appeal to authority" argument is a logical fallacy.

Plenty of pointless battles with you in the past, Lars.

I won't be continuing that trend now.

[LarsV8]

Not sure why you post in a discussion forum, if you are not interested in a discussion.

[karkinos]

VORP
12.41 = Westbrook 2017
11.98 = Jordan 1989
11.81 = Jordan 1988 (MVP)
11.57 = LeBron 2009 (MVP)
10.89 = LeBron 2010 (MVP)
10.12 = Jordan 1990
10.09 = LeBron 2008
09.81 = Curry 2016 (MVP)
09.80 = Jordan 1991 (MVP)

so maybe jordan realized less is more and won a championship with a lower VORP? j/k maybe he just got more help with scottie pippen developing alongside him.
i think VORP just reaffirms what we already know in that the player took a tremendous load to do everything
however basketball is still a team sport.
i don't think anyone is denying the workload WB chooses to carry, and we certainly don't need stats to prove it. i would expect lower VORPs for players on better teams. that being said, i don't think players on contending teams should be punished for being on a good team.

[Impuniti]

Saying this is the 2nd GOAT RS is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on realgm

So sad. I mentioned Gulliver and the Lilliputians in a recent post, and I do sometimes get that kind-of "Einstein vs kindergartners" feel. People need to grasp that just because they may not be not up-to-speed on data and history, that doesn't mean the rest of the board is in a similar place.

I've already listed all of the relevant statistics. And I've already made this claim, which I will happily wait to see refuted:
No one, for the rest of the time the NBA exists, will ever have a season with these parameters again:

30/10/10 average
Sub-100 pace
30+ PER

I will wait for anyone to have such a season again. It will never happen.

Anyways, let's step beyond there. Let's go to people who write about sports for a living. New York Times, what do you think about possible best NBA seasons in history?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/sports/russell-westbrook-greatest-season-sports.html

Summary to save you the click:

Wilt 1961-62
Westbrook 2016-17

...which is exactly what I said in my first post on this subject that everyone keeps quoting. And no, I did not consult the Times before I made my post.

Some of us know some things. We really do.

Now, how about players. What do they think?

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/scottie-pippen-says-russell-westbrook-season-greatest-ive-ever-seen
T-Mac: ...may be the greatest single season performance I've ever seen
Pippen: It's the greatest I've ever seen


http://www.obsev.com/sports/blake-griffin-russell-westbrook-had-best-season-ive-ever-seen-deserves-mvp.html
Blake Griffin: Yes (this is the best individual season I've ever seen)


Pick up the pace, fellas.

Pick up the pace.

Who cares if someone has a season like this again? Obviously if there is a future star that is 1) an idiot 2) doesn't know anything about sacrifice or winning 3) a selfish fool that's all about him and 4) has FO and team willing to suck up to him just so he stays with them, it may happen again.

Your relevant stats just make me see some guy that doesn't even watch games but just points and basic stats as he fixes his huge glasses. Westbrook has a terrible record vs the best 3 teams in the league, he sucked in most of those games. He also averaged a triple double vs the Dubs. Impressive right? Until you see the garbage shooting %, massive TOs and pretty much being straight up trash until the 3rd-4th quarter once the game is over when there is no pressure and they've sagged off defensively. But pointing out at specific stats makes you think without context that he wasn't straight up embarrassed every single game as he got owned on an individual and collective level. Top PGs start dancing when they have a lazy ass like WB not even follow them off the ball or contest much when they're on the offensive.

There's no season where you take your team as far as predicted which is a mediocre 10th? in the NBA regarded anywhere near the best and get schooled by the top teams. The truth is that if he got 1 less rebound, he wouldn't be MVP and no one would talk about it. That tells you all you need to know. But as long as you enjoy round numbers, keep telling yourself that.

[shawn_hemp]

I don't get how Westbrook averaging 2 more rebounds a game (because that's what I want my PG doing, grabbing rebounds) than Harden makes up for the Rockets better team success

It's not like Harden is out there playing with a Big 3. His team is better than the Thunder collectively but I also think they are better because of how Harden plays, whereas the rest of the Thunder are worse due to how Westbrook plays

Let's just say triple doubles weren't a thing. There would be no real argument to give the award to Westbrook.

So once you get over the triple double part, it's pretty obvious that Harden should win