OT: Djoker Becomes Undisputed GOAT

[Clav]

Great US Open final going on right now. Tied at 1 set in the 3rd

[G R E Y]

Shaping up to be another classic final.

[G R E Y]

Seldom has a match been this competitive and lopsided.

[Clav]

Seldom has a match been this competitive and lopsided.

There's is some high level tennis going on, even if that 3rd set was lopsided, really fun to watch!

have a nice Sunday

[G R E Y]

Seldom has a match been this competitive and lopsided.

There's is some high level tennis going on, even if that 3rd set was lopsided, really fun to watch!

have a nice Sunday

Have a feeling this will be another grind to a classic.

Thanks, you too, enjoy!

[eyeatoma]

Alcaraz fairly dominant performance against Sinner to win the US Open!

[Prez]

2 slams on grass, 2 slams on HC, 2 slams on clay at age 22. And now he snatches world #1 back. Best player in the world, and might be the most talented player I've ever seen.

[Rust_Cohle]

How much is 2025 Novak worse than 2023 Novak?
I suspect not much, what changed is that now there are two athletes in his tier, but 15 years younger.
Pretty sure he wouldn't have won any major, against this version of Sincaraz.

He’s significantly worse and it isn’t even close. He can’t even do 5 sets anymore. His mobility isn’t close to what it used to be. Much poorer first serve too. He’s gassed by the third set. Sinner and Alcaraz are amazing, but 2023 Djokovic beats the version of Carlos on the SF, even though yes carlos played great in the final. Olympic level Djokovic from 2023 was as good as any sincraz we saw this year.

Sinner served a woeful 48% first serve today. That isn’t beating 2023 Djokovic. Alacaraz got hammered this year in AU open by the worst Djokovic we have had in a season yet on 2025 Novak. Don’t be a prisoner of the moment.

[DirtyDez]

Read on Twitter

[Doctor MJ]

Wow, feels good to have a big time rivalry in the game again!

Alcaraz is particularly beautiful to watch and makes me think of guys like Federer & McEnroe, while certainly having a general athletic advantage. I still worry that a taller player - Sinner, or another - will be able to surpass him, but he sure seemed next level today.

[bonita_the_frog]

Nadal + Federer = Alcaraz.

When Alcaraz first hit the tour he talked about Federer being his favorite player and that he was more like Federer than Nadal.
He's got Nadal-type athleticism, with Federer like strokeplay (not a single-handed backhand, but overall), and unlike Nadal he doesn't rely on the topspin much.

And his footwork is similar to Nadal's footwork, not just the foot-speed, and he's got a similar on-court personality to Nadal with the reactions to winning points (whereas Federer was fairly reserved) even though he's not identical (Nadal didn't smile during matches).

But his shot-selection is more like Federer, because he cares majorly about entertaining the crowd and has said this.

[wade44]

2 slams on grass, 2 slams on HC, 2 slams on clay at age 22. And now he snatches world #1 back. Best player in the world, and might be the most talented player I've ever seen.

He’s got that it factor. It’s what puts him slightly ahead of sinner IMO

[ball_takes23]

Alcaraz just got number 6 at 22, Novak had one slam at the same age Alcaraz is now. And Alcaraz only has one major rival instead of two, I think he's probably a favorite to catch Novak, injuries are the only thing stopping him.

[Rust_Cohle]

Alcaraz just got number 6 at 22, Novak had one slam at the same age Alcaraz is now. And Alcaraz only has one major rival instead of two, I think he's probably a favorite to catch Novak, injuries are the only thing stopping him.

Newcomers come out of nowhere. People felt in 2021 nobody would stop Novak over the next 5 years. Alacaraz 12 months prior to French open this year were ugly by his lofty standards. He slumped a bit after an amazing start. A lot can happen.

[LordCovington33]

Alcaraz just got number 6 at 22, Novak had one slam at the same age Alcaraz is now. And Alcaraz only has one major rival instead of two, I think he's probably a favorite to catch Novak, injuries are the only thing stopping him.

Newcomers come out of nowhere. People felt in 2021 nobody would stop Novak over the next 5 years. Alacaraz 12 months prior to French open this year were ugly by his lofty standards. He slumped a bit after an amazing start. A lot can happen.

When Hewitt came on the scene and was the youngest male player to reach #1, people thought he would win 10 or more. Then Federer happened. New players will come.

[bonita_the_frog]

Newcomers come out of nowhere. People felt in 2021 nobody would stop Novak over the next 5 years. Alacaraz 12 months prior to French open this year were ugly by his lofty standards. He slumped a bit after an amazing start. A lot can happen.

Yep after winning Wimbledon 2024, Alcaraz was devastated by the Olympics (in the Gold Medal match Alcaraz had 8 break points on Djokovic's serve, and lost 7-6, 7-6) and lost in the 2nd Round of Cincinnati and 2nd Round of US Open...

But Alcaraz still beat Sinner at 2024 Beijing, and in 2025 Alcaraz won Rotterdam (indoor hardcourt), won Monte Carlo, won Rome and was runner-up at Barcelona, semi-final Indian Wells, so he won plenty before the 2025 French Open.

I think Alcaraz was just ruined mentally by the Olympics, because he would have felt like he let Nadal down by allowing Djokovic the Gold Medal (Nadal won 2008 Singles Gold and 2016 Doubles Gold, while Djokovic had never won a Gold), and lost early in the Olympic Doubles with Nadal too. I remember Alcaraz literally told the Spanish media that he would bring back the Gold Medal.

It took Djokovic 20 years to win the Gold Medal (and he lost to Nadal, Murray, Del Potro TWICE, Zverev and Carreno Busta) so its obviously not something you can expect to win, probably because of the unique environment and pressure.

When Hewitt came on the scene and was the youngest male player to reach #1, people thought he would win 10 or more. Then Federer happened. New players will come.

New players will come, but because Alcaraz is a hybrid of Nadal and Federer, its hard to imagine someone being more talented than Alcaraz.
His biggest weakness is he has too many shots and options, so he'll get better with age when he learns which shots to use and which to leave behind.

And ESPN noted (or Agassi told ESPN actually) that Alcaraz completely transformed his backhand technique this year, because up until last year Alcaraz began his backhand up near his head, whereas now Alcaraz begins his backhand down near his waist, so his backhand now has a shorter and lower backswing.

ESPN asked Juan Carlos Ferrero about this, and JCF said nobody told Alcaraz to change his backhand, but Alcaraz decided to do it on his own and that he frequently sees a technique that he'd like to copy and the coaches tell him not to do it.

Fortunately nobody stopped him this time, and he's now got a huge backhand and its helping him on hardcourts (and so is his improved 2nd Serve which has more depth, power and variety, whereas at the AO this year Alcaraz's 2nd serve was awful and Djokovic took advantage of it).

[Sgt Major]

I'm so glad that Novak managed to win the Olympic gold last year. Beating Alcaraz or Sinner now looks like an impossible task for him.

[iggymcfrack]

Newcomers come out of nowhere. People felt in 2021 nobody would stop Novak over the next 5 years. Alacaraz 12 months prior to French open this year were ugly by his lofty standards. He slumped a bit after an amazing start. A lot can happen.

Yep after winning Wimbledon 2024, Alcaraz was devastated by the Olympics (in the Gold Medal match Alcaraz had 8 break points on Djokovic's serve, and lost 7-6, 7-6) and lost in the 2nd Round of Cincinnati and 2nd Round of US Open...

But Alcaraz still beat Sinner at 2024 Beijing, and in 2025 Alcaraz won Rotterdam (indoor hardcourt), won Monte Carlo, won Rome and was runner-up at Barcelona, semi-final Indian Wells, so he won plenty before the 2025 French Open.

I think Alcaraz was just ruined mentally by the Olympics, because he would have felt like he let Nadal down by allowing Djokovic the Gold Medal (Nadal won 2008 Singles Gold and 2016 Doubles Gold, while Djokovic had never won a Gold), and lost early in the Olympic Doubles with Nadal too. I remember Alcaraz literally told the Spanish media that he would bring back the Gold Medal.

It took Djokovic 20 years to win the Gold Medal (and he lost to Nadal, Murray, Del Potro TWICE, Zverev and Carreno Busta) so its obviously not something you can expect to win, probably because of the unique environment and pressure.

When Hewitt came on the scene and was the youngest male player to reach #1, people thought he would win 10 or more. Then Federer happened. New players will come.

New players will come, but because Alcaraz is a hybrid of Nadal and Federer, its hard to imagine someone being more talented than Alcaraz.
His biggest weakness is he has too many shots and options, so he'll get better with age when he learns which shots to use and which to leave behind.

And ESPN noted (or Agassi told ESPN actually) that Alcaraz completely transformed his backhand technique this year, because up until last year Alcaraz began his backhand up near his head, whereas now Alcaraz begins his backhand down near his waist, so his backhand now has a shorter and lower backswing.

ESPN asked Juan Carlos Ferrero about this, and JCF said nobody told Alcaraz to change his backhand, but Alcaraz decided to do it on his own and that he frequently sees a technique that he'd like to copy and the coaches tell him not to do it.

Fortunately nobody stopped him this time, and he's now got a huge backhand and its helping him on hardcourts (and so is his improved 2nd Serve which has more depth, power and variety, whereas at the AO this year Alcaraz's 2nd serve was awful and Djokovic took advantage of it).

Alcaraz is incredibly talented and I wouldn't worry about newer younger players coming in and surpassing him any time soon, but I'm still not convinced he's better than Sinner. He's done well in the head-to-head so far, but that can be fluky over a small sample and change over time. I do believe that Sinner had a legitimate injury, albeit a minor one that caused him to take the timeout against Felix and caused him to serve so poorly in the final. It wasn't Carlos that was keeping him from getting his first serve in or making him double fault.

If you want to remove the variance a little bit and look at a larger sample, for the entire 2025 season, Sinner won 71% of his service points and 43% of his return points. Alcaraz won 66% of service points and 42% of return points. That's a pretty big difference, especially on serve, and looking at an entire season will give you a much more reliable data sample than just a couple big matches. Now granted, Carlos is younger and could improve faster, but for now I'd say that Sinner should be the clear favorite at 3 of the 4 grand slams next year.

[The Master]

I think Alcaraz was just ruined mentally by the Olympics, because he would have felt like he let Nadal down by allowing Djokovic the Gold Medal (Nadal won 2008 Singles Gold and 2016 Doubles Gold, while Djokovic had never won a Gold), and lost early in the Olympic Doubles with Nadal too. I remember Alcaraz literally told the Spanish media that he would bring back the Gold Medal.

He was physically exhausted, first and foremost, he missed almost the full clay season in 2024 due to injury and played Roland Garros-Wimbledon without a serious preparation, it's understandable that he couldn't maintain this level for any longer. That's why after the Olympics he lost to 38yo Monfils and to Botic van Zandschulp at the US Open. But Novak was obviously great in Paris.

How much is 2025 Novak worse than 2023 Novak?
I suspect not much, what changed is that now there are two athletes in his tier, but 15 years younger.
Pretty sure he wouldn't have won any major, against this version of Sincaraz.

He's significantly worse - but at the same time Alcaraz and Sinner are much better than they were in 2023, and Alcaraz was able to defeat Novak on Wimbledon while Sinner defeated him in virtual final of Davis Cup. He would've won some Slams, but not as many, this is a fair assessment, Alcaraz started to serve so much better since Wimbledon/clay season this year, Sinner is just a tier better all-round as a player.

But it's more and more apparent that we had the biggest gap ever in terms of emergence of 'historical' players (Djokovic - 1987, Sinner - 2001, 14 years) - and you can't even use that much 'but big3!' argument for this 2020-2023 era.

Let's hope we'll see someone new sooner rather than later, because there's no one on the horizon at this point who could challenge Sinner and Alcaraz.

[Rust_Cohle]

Newcomers come out of nowhere. People felt in 2021 nobody would stop Novak over the next 5 years. Alacaraz 12 months prior to French open this year were ugly by his lofty standards. He slumped a bit after an amazing start. A lot can happen.

Yep after winning Wimbledon 2024, Alcaraz was devastated by the Olympics (in the Gold Medal match Alcaraz had 8 break points on Djokovic's serve, and lost 7-6, 7-6) and lost in the 2nd Round of Cincinnati and 2nd Round of US Open...

But Alcaraz still beat Sinner at 2024 Beijing, and in 2025 Alcaraz won Rotterdam (indoor hardcourt), won Monte Carlo, won Rome and was runner-up at Barcelona, semi-final Indian Wells, so he won plenty before the 2025 French Open.

I think Alcaraz was just ruined mentally by the Olympics, because he would have felt like he let Nadal down by allowing Djokovic the Gold Medal (Nadal won 2008 Singles Gold and 2016 Doubles Gold, while Djokovic had never won a Gold), and lost early in the Olympic Doubles with Nadal too. I remember Alcaraz literally told the Spanish media that he would bring back the Gold Medal.

It took Djokovic 20 years to win the Gold Medal (and he lost to Nadal, Murray, Del Potro TWICE, Zverev and Carreno Busta) so its obviously not something you can expect to win, probably because of the unique environment and pressure.

When Hewitt came on the scene and was the youngest male player to reach #1, people thought he would win 10 or more. Then Federer happened. New players will come.

New players will come, but because Alcaraz is a hybrid of Nadal and Federer, its hard to imagine someone being more talented than Alcaraz.
His biggest weakness is he has too many shots and options, so he'll get better with age when he learns which shots to use and which to leave behind.

And ESPN noted (or Agassi told ESPN actually) that Alcaraz completely transformed his backhand technique this year, because up until last year Alcaraz began his backhand up near his head, whereas now Alcaraz begins his backhand down near his waist, so his backhand now has a shorter and lower backswing.

ESPN asked Juan Carlos Ferrero about this, and JCF said nobody told Alcaraz to change his backhand, but Alcaraz decided to do it on his own and that he frequently sees a technique that he'd like to copy and the coaches tell him not to do it.

Fortunately nobody stopped him this time, and he's now got a huge backhand and its helping him on hardcourts (and so is his improved 2nd Serve which has more depth, power and variety, whereas at the AO this year Alcaraz's 2nd serve was awful and Djokovic took advantage of it).

Alcaraz is incredibly talented and I wouldn't worry about newer younger players coming in and surpassing him any time soon, but I'm still not convinced he's better than Sinner. He's done well in the head-to-head so far, but that can be fluky over a small sample and change over time. I do believe that Sinner had a legitimate injury, albeit a minor one that caused him to take the timeout against Felix and caused him to serve so poorly in the final. It wasn't Carlos that was keeping him from getting his first serve in or making him double fault.

If you want to remove the variance a little bit and look at a larger sample, for the entire 2025 season, Sinner won 71% of his service points and 43% of his return points. Alcaraz won 66% of service points and 42% of return points. That's a pretty big difference, especially on serve, and looking at an entire season will give you a much more reliable data sample than just a couple big matches. Now granted, Carlos is younger and could improve faster, but for now I'd say that Sinner should be the clear favorite at 3 of the 4 grand slams next year.

Nailed it, everyone goes on about Carlos since he’s much flashier than Djokovic but I agree with you, that Sinner will be the favorite for a lot more slams next year than Carlos.