RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[AlexanderRight]

- '91 Finals: Pippen outcored, outrebounded, and had twice as many steals per game as Magic. Pip also player great defense on Worthy and shut Magic down when he was on him. Pippen was easily the best player in the closeout Game 5 of that series. Magic does not have a clear edge over Pippen. I'm fine with calling them 2a and 2b.
- '92 Finals: Pippen had 20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 on .561 TS% and Drexler had 24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1.0 on .522 TS%. Pippen had better efficiency and better defense that Clyde in that series. He was the second best player on the court.
- '93 Finals: Barkley was the second best player on the court and Pippen was third. Pretty clear.
- '96 Finals: The first Finals where MJ is not the best hands down the best player on the floor. Kemp had a series on par with MJ's. So they're 1a and 1b. Pippen and Payton also performed similarly. So they're 3a and 3b.
- '97 Finals: Pippen and Malone had the same apg and spg. Malone had 4 more ppg and Pippen had 1.5 more bpg. But Scottie was far more efficient with .541 TS% to Malone .485 TS%. Pippen's defense was terrific that series as he provided tremendous value by being the primary rim protector for the Bulls. Pippen had the better series. I'm not trading 1.5 blocks and better shooting for 4 more points on poor efficiency. Pip gets 2nd.
- '98 Finals: Malone has a better series but Pippen performs way better than a 35-year old Stockton so Pip was the 3rd best performer.

So in 6 Finals, Pippen's performances rank 2(a), 2, 3, 3a, 2, and 3. In half of their Finals, Pippen is the 2nd best player on the floor and in the other half he's the 3rd best. It's weird how that 6-0 Finals record looks different when you consider the second best player of MJ's rivals. Pippen is the best second banana of all-time and that certainly can't hurt when it comes to winning.

You do realize there's more than two players on a team right? You do understand that outside of Magic and Worthy, the Lakers still had an 18ppg and 16ppg scorer on the team right? Do you think Pippen guarded Magic and Worthy at the same time? You do understand that MJ still had to play defense on one of those two right? It ain't like MJ got to take half the game off and only had to worry about scoring points. Wanna talk about defense? MJ had more blocks and steals than Pippen while still averaging way more assists and still having less turnovers.

In the 92-93 Finals Pippen was great, but considering that MJ averaged 38/6/6 on 50%+ between both those Finals, you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that MJ wasn't winning those rings with just about any competent #2. Pippen deserves credit and he's gotten it, but pretending like MJ's ability to win rings in that era would have compromised without him is huuuuuuuge stretch.

That 96 Finals is known more for Payton's defense on MJ and Kemp going off than anything Pippen was doing. While Kemp was flying all over the place and blocking more shots than anyone Payton playing the best defense we've seen anyone play on MJ while averaging more points and assists than Pippen. You pretending like Pippen was on par with them with his 34% shooting is pretty hilarious. You'd be better off giving credit to Rodman, who at least was getting boards. It's unfortunate that's all he was doing cause he and Pippen certainly weren't doing a damn thing about Kemp bangin all over their heads for six games.

Nobody is tossing MVP Malone for a 1997 Scottie Pippen. I'm sorry, you're on your own on that one. Malone averaged more points, rebounding and better FG% in that series. The fact that they tied up in steals and assists is more of a negative for Pippen than a positive considering he's supposed to be the point forward and defensive guru. If you wanna talk about TS% all of a sudden I can point out that Stockton had a bigger gap in TS% above Pippen than Pippen did above Malone while averaging 5 more APG, more steals per game and averaging only 5 less PPG. Both Malone and Stockton had a better offensive and defensive rating than Pippen in that Finals.

I hesitate to say Pippen played "way better" than Stockton in 98 considering Stockon still accounted for more points through his scoring and passing while still averaging more steals and much better FG%. Redgardless, after Game 4 Pippen was absolutely done. He mustered up 6 points on 2/16 in Game 5 and was barely able to clock in 25 minutes for 8 points in Game 6 while MJ was scoring over half the team's points. He was a play away from a wheelchair in that close out game and probably wouldn't even have been able to suit up for a Game 7.

In the grand scheme of things, yes Pippen did his part but calling him the greatest 2nd option ever over Kobe/Kareem/ KD-Steph really makes my eyes roll. What makes them roll even more is you trying so hard to use Pippen to discredit MJ while your GOAT (Russell) literally had the MVP of the freaking league in his first year. Russell literally had 2 other All-NBA players on his team for his first 8 years and 9 out of his 13 years while Wilt didn't have a single one for his first 5 years and only 1 teammate that made All-NBA with him for a whole decade before getting to LA.

But yeah, MJ is the one who really had it easy...

[MavsDirk41]

Of the teams that MJ faced in his 6 Finals, he was always the best player on the court except arguably against the Sonics. Pippen sometimes performed as well the the #1 option on the other team. And when he didn't he was easily the 3rd best player on the court.

In the first 3 Finals Pippen averaged around 22/9/8 while playing ferocious, stifling defense. Pippen outperformed Kevin Johnson in the one Finals when they met and had a much bigger defensive impact including stretches guarding Barkley effectively. Your team does not get better swapping Pippen for KJ.

I think it's fair to say that MJ had better help relative to his competition at the time. That's not a knock on MJ. He was still usually the best player on the court but he also had the better teammates.

You can't penalize MJ for being the best player on the floor or not being an "underdog" in a series. That defeats the whole idea of being the GOAT in the first place. It's a backwards argument. MJ was never outplayed in a series, unlike Russell who averages less points, rebounds, assists per game and FG% than Wilt head to head.

Pippen never matched or outperformed the other #1 option in a Finals. He did not match or outperform Clyde, Barkely, Payton/Kemp, Malone in any of those Finals. That 91 Lakers squad had 4 guys averaging over 16ppg in that Finals, it wasn't just about Magic. That Portland team had 6 guys averaging double digits in the playoffs. Phoenix had 7 guys doing that over the regular season and 4 guys averaging over 15ppg in the Finals. Pippen averaged 34% in the 96 Finals while Kemp in that series averaging 23/10 on 55% shooting. He was the 2nd highest scorer in that series while blocking more shots than everyone on the floor (2 Bpg). This notion that MJ was playing against rec YMCA teams in the Finals just isn't true in the real world...

I'm not saying Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen. I'm saying that there were plenty competent number #2 options on Finals teams that would have been just as competent if not more competent playing next to MJ. If they made the Finals as a #2 without MJ, it'd be ridiculous to assume they wouldn't have done the same with him. You can't just presume these players would have been the same or ignore how the team would have been structured going forward if you swapped them out with Pippen as they developed in completely separate environments.

I'm not sure why you're being defensive over me acknowledging that MJ was the best player on the court. That's weird. I didn't knock him for it or give him credit for it because the topic was his teammates. Speaking of which:

- '91 Finals: Pippen outcored, outrebounded, and had twice as many steals per game as Magic. Pip also player great defense on Worthy and shut Magic down when he was on him. Pippen was easily the best player in the closeout Game 5 of that series. Magic does not have a clear edge over Pippen. I'm fine with calling them 2a and 2b.
- '92 Finals: Pippen had 20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 on .561 TS% and Drexler had 24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1.0 on .522 TS%. Pippen had better efficiency and better defense that Clyde in that series. He was the second best player on the court.
- '93 Finals: Barkley was the second best player on the court and Pippen was third. Pretty clear.
- '96 Finals: The first Finals where MJ is not the best hands down the best player on the floor. Kemp had a series on par with MJ's. So they're 1a and 1b. Pippen and Payton also performed similarly. So they're 3a and 3b.
- '97 Finals: Pippen and Malone had the same apg and spg. Malone had 4 more ppg and Pippen had 1.5 more bpg. But Scottie was far more efficient with .541 TS% to Malone .485 TS%. Pippen's defense was terrific that series as he provided tremendous value by being the primary rim protector for the Bulls. Pippen had the better series. I'm not trading 1.5 blocks and better shooting for 4 more points on poor efficiency. Pip gets 2nd.
- '98 Finals: Malone has a better series but Pippen performs way better than a 35-year old Stockton so Pip was the 3rd best performer.

So in 6 Finals, Pippen's performances rank 2(a), 2, 3, 3a, 2, and 3. In half of their Finals, Pippen is the 2nd best player on the floor and in the other half he's the 3rd best. It's weird how that 6-0 Finals record looks different when you consider the second best player of MJ's rivals. Pippen is the best second banana of all-time and that certainly can't hurt when it comes to winning.

I get that Russell is hard to understand for many. I'll let Havlicek explain it:

"Russell was the kind of player who never concerned himself with personal goals. He put his team above all else, and in the process, he made his teammates better players. If you were a scorer, you were six to eight points better because Russell was around. If you were a good defensive player, you became a great defensive player.
The most important things to Bill were championships, rings, and winning. He was never after the personal stats. Wilt could raise the level of his game. He could do things that were eye-popping when you reviewed the box score, but he could never figure out how to make his teammates around him better."

Russell elevated his teammates on both ends of the floor. He did the hard things that his team needed and made the game easier for his team. His style allowed his teammates to make sacrifices as well for the good of the team. Russell played to win, so he got outplayed in just one series in his career and that was the only time he lost to Wilt.

Disagree that Jordan typically had the stronger rosters in the finals.

91
You can say Pippen played Magic to a draw but Magic (19/12/8) was better game 1 with the big triple double. Pippen was better games 2 and closeout game 5 although Magic had a ton of assist he shot poorly. Magic was better game 4 and game 3 was probably even. Pippen playing Magic, who was 2nd in MVP voting that year, about even was impressive though. Even if you take Divac out what the Lakers got from Perkins and Worthy was no more if not less impressive than what Chicago got from Grant/Paxson/Cartwright. Perkins to me was more probably more valuable than Grant. Perk was 5/13 from 3 as a big and averaged 1.5 blocks a game. He averaged 17/8 while Grant averaged 15/8. Worthy missed the closeout game but played well in the series averaging 19ppg.

92- Drexler averaged 25/8/5 and Pippen averaged 21/9/7. Pippen was better game 1 but Drexler was better the rest of the series. The closeout game was probably about even. But Portlands supporting cast of Porter, Kersey, Ainge, Cliff Robinson, Buck Williams, and Duckworth was better than Grant, Paxson, Wennington, and Cartwright. Its not even close. That Portland team was deep.

93- no doubt Pippen was better than Kevin Johnson. But Thunder Dan, Dumas, and Ainge was just as good as Grant, Paxson, BJ and Cartwright. Barkley was amazing and KJ was very good (17/3/7) but with Pippen the Bulls had 2 of the 3 best players on the court.

95- take Jordan and Kemp out and Payton (18/6/7) was just as good as Pippen in this series (16/8/5). I mean this was probably a draw. Now would you take Kukoc (13/5/4) Rodman (8/15) and Longley (12/4) over Detlef (16/5/3), Hawkins (13/4) and Perkins (11/5)? This was Rodmans best finals with the Bulls but Detlef was better than Kukoc (Detelf was a good defender too). I would take Longley over Brickowski which might be the difference.

97- i would take Pippen over Stockton but Pippen shot poorly in the series (42%) averaging 20/8/4 while Stockton was efficient (50%) averaging 15/4/9. Kukoc averaged 8/3 on 41% while Rodman averaged 2/8 only getting double digit boards in 2 games. Were they better then Hornacek 12/4/2 and Russell 11/6 along with Eisely? The games in this series were close. Bulls won by double digits game 2 and Utah did game 3.

98- Jordans supporting cast was better this series. Pippen obviously got hurt and was ineffective in the closeout game 6 but Kukoc played well games 5 and 6. But no, Jordan didnt always have the better supporting cast in the finals.

[KayDee35]

You can't penalize MJ for being the best player on the floor or not being an "underdog" in a series. That defeats the whole idea of being the GOAT in the first place. It's a backwards argument. MJ was never outplayed in a series, unlike Russell who averages less points, rebounds, assists per game and FG% than Wilt head to head.

Pippen never matched or outperformed the other #1 option in a Finals. He did not match or outperform Clyde, Barkely, Payton/Kemp, Malone in any of those Finals. That 91 Lakers squad had 4 guys averaging over 16ppg in that Finals, it wasn't just about Magic. That Portland team had 6 guys averaging double digits in the playoffs. Phoenix had 7 guys doing that over the regular season and 4 guys averaging over 15ppg in the Finals. Pippen averaged 34% in the 96 Finals while Kemp in that series averaging 23/10 on 55% shooting. He was the 2nd highest scorer in that series while blocking more shots than everyone on the floor (2 Bpg). This notion that MJ was playing against rec YMCA teams in the Finals just isn't true in the real world...

I'm not saying Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen. I'm saying that there were plenty competent number #2 options on Finals teams that would have been just as competent if not more competent playing next to MJ. If they made the Finals as a #2 without MJ, it'd be ridiculous to assume they wouldn't have done the same with him. You can't just presume these players would have been the same or ignore how the team would have been structured going forward if you swapped them out with Pippen as they developed in completely separate environments.

I'm not sure why you're being defensive over me acknowledging that MJ was the best player on the court. That's weird. I didn't knock him for it or give him credit for it because the topic was his teammates. Speaking of which:

- '91 Finals: Pippen outcored, outrebounded, and had twice as many steals per game as Magic. Pip also player great defense on Worthy and shut Magic down when he was on him. Pippen was easily the best player in the closeout Game 5 of that series. Magic does not have a clear edge over Pippen. I'm fine with calling them 2a and 2b.
- '92 Finals: Pippen had 20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 on .561 TS% and Drexler had 24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1.0 on .522 TS%. Pippen had better efficiency and better defense that Clyde in that series. He was the second best player on the court.
- '93 Finals: Barkley was the second best player on the court and Pippen was third. Pretty clear.
- '96 Finals: The first Finals where MJ is not the best hands down the best player on the floor. Kemp had a series on par with MJ's. So they're 1a and 1b. Pippen and Payton also performed similarly. So they're 3a and 3b.
- '97 Finals: Pippen and Malone had the same apg and spg. Malone had 4 more ppg and Pippen had 1.5 more bpg. But Scottie was far more efficient with .541 TS% to Malone .485 TS%. Pippen's defense was terrific that series as he provided tremendous value by being the primary rim protector for the Bulls. Pippen had the better series. I'm not trading 1.5 blocks and better shooting for 4 more points on poor efficiency. Pip gets 2nd.
- '98 Finals: Malone has a better series but Pippen performs way better than a 35-year old Stockton so Pip was the 3rd best performer.

So in 6 Finals, Pippen's performances rank 2(a), 2, 3, 3a, 2, and 3. In half of their Finals, Pippen is the 2nd best player on the floor and in the other half he's the 3rd best. It's weird how that 6-0 Finals record looks different when you consider the second best player of MJ's rivals. Pippen is the best second banana of all-time and that certainly can't hurt when it comes to winning.

I get that Russell is hard to understand for many. I'll let Havlicek explain it:

"Russell was the kind of player who never concerned himself with personal goals. He put his team above all else, and in the process, he made his teammates better players. If you were a scorer, you were six to eight points better because Russell was around. If you were a good defensive player, you became a great defensive player.
The most important things to Bill were championships, rings, and winning. He was never after the personal stats. Wilt could raise the level of his game. He could do things that were eye-popping when you reviewed the box score, but he could never figure out how to make his teammates around him better."

Russell elevated his teammates on both ends of the floor. He did the hard things that his team needed and made the game easier for his team. His style allowed his teammates to make sacrifices as well for the good of the team. Russell played to win, so he got outplayed in just one series in his career and that was the only time he lost to Wilt.

Disagree that Jordan typically had the stronger rosters in the finals.

91
You can say Pippen played Magic to a draw but Magic (19/12/8) was better game 1 with the big triple double. Pippen was better games 2 and closeout game 5 although Magic had a ton of assist he shot poorly. Magic was better game 4 and game 3 was probably even. Pippen playing Magic, who was 2nd in MVP voting that year, about even was impressive though. Even if you take Divac out what the Lakers got from Perkins and Worthy was no more if not less impressive than what Chicago got from Grant/Paxson/Cartwright. Perkins to me was more probably more valuable than Grant. Perk was 5/13 from 3 as a big and averaged 1.5 blocks a game. He averaged 17/8 while Grant averaged 15/8. Worthy missed the closeout game but played well in the series averaging 19ppg.

92- Drexler averaged 25/8/5 and Pippen averaged 21/9/7. Pippen was better game 1 but Drexler was better the rest of the series. The closeout game was probably about even. But Portlands supporting cast of Porter, Kersey, Ainge, Cliff Robinson, Buck Williams, and Duckworth was better than Grant, Paxson, Wennington, and Cartwright. Its not even close. That Portland team was deep.

93- no doubt Pippen was better than Kevin Johnson. But Thunder Dan, Dumas, and Ainge was just as good as Grant, Paxson, BJ and Cartwright. Barkley was amazing and KJ was very good (17/3/7) but with Pippen the Bulls had 2 of the 3 best players on the court.

95- take Jordan and Kemp out and Payton (18/6/7) was just as good as Pippen in this series (16/8/5). I mean this was probably a draw. Now would you take Kukoc (13/5/4) Rodman (8/15) and Longley (12/4) over Detlef (16/5/3), Hawkins (13/4) and Perkins (11/5)? This was Rodmans best finals with the Bulls but Detlef was better than Kukoc (Detelf was a good defender too). I would take Longley over Brickowski which might be the difference.

97- i would take Pippen over Stockton but Pippen shot poorly in the series (42%) averaging 20/8/4 while Stockton was efficient (50%) averaging 15/4/9. Kukoc averaged 8/3 on 41% while Rodman averaged 2/8 only getting double digit boards in 2 games. Were they better then Hornacek 12/4/2 and Russell 11/6 along with Eisely? The games in this series were close. Bulls won by double digits game 2 and Utah did game 3.

98- Jordans supporting cast was better this series. Pippen obviously got hurt and was ineffective in the closeout game 6 but Kukoc played well games 5 and 6. But no, Jordan didnt always have the better supporting cast in the finals.

You caught me exaggerating I was making the most extreme case I could.

If I'm being honest, the difference between MJ and everyone else in most of those Finals is impressive and was often the biggest single contributor to the Bulls success.

91- I agree on how well the guys on both teams played. Pippen and Magic were about even only due to the Bulls defense of Pip and MJ on Magic. Sleepy Sam had a good series.

92- That Portland bench was very good. But MJ vastly outperformed Drexler. He opens with the shrug game and you could just see that MJ was on another level. Pippen also had a better game 5 that Drexler but Drexler had a better series overall.

93- That Suns team could score in a hurry and Majerle was pretty good for them. However, he was unable to really slow MJ down. KJ actually had the most success preventing penetration but MJ could shoot over him quite easily. Barkley was good but gapped by Jordan.

95- Agree on the Glove and Pip playing to a draw in that series. The Sonics were the only team that looked like they could beat those Bulls because MJ wasn't the best player on the floor for once (he was even with Kemp, imo). Rodman did have a great series, as you said. 15 rebounds per game is phenomenal. The Bulls defense was also very good in this series thanks to Pip, Rodman, and MJ. I'd take Longley over Brickowski who didn't seem to do very much in that series.

97- I agree that Scottie shot poorly and Stockton was solid. The Bulls dug up Bison Dele who took quite a few minutes from Rodman and played the heady veteran role well. MJ is a good deal better than Malone in this series but the Jazz probably have the better cast once you look past Pippen and the two-headed snake of Rodman/Dele.

98- Agreed.

You are correct that MJ does not always have the best supporting cast. But he had good teams and Pippen who was sometimes the second best player on the court. Nevertheless, MJ outperforms every one of his rivals in all his 6 Finals but one! I'm not sure that can be said of anyone else.

[ScrantonBulls]

I'm not sure why you're being defensive over me acknowledging that MJ was the best player on the court. That's weird. I didn't knock him for it or give him credit for it because the topic was his teammates. Speaking of which:

- '91 Finals: Pippen outcored, outrebounded, and had twice as many steals per game as Magic. Pip also player great defense on Worthy and shut Magic down when he was on him. Pippen was easily the best player in the closeout Game 5 of that series. Magic does not have a clear edge over Pippen. I'm fine with calling them 2a and 2b.
- '92 Finals: Pippen had 20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 on .561 TS% and Drexler had 24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1.0 on .522 TS%. Pippen had better efficiency and better defense that Clyde in that series. He was the second best player on the court.
- '93 Finals: Barkley was the second best player on the court and Pippen was third. Pretty clear.
- '96 Finals: The first Finals where MJ is not the best hands down the best player on the floor. Kemp had a series on par with MJ's. So they're 1a and 1b. Pippen and Payton also performed similarly. So they're 3a and 3b.
- '97 Finals: Pippen and Malone had the same apg and spg. Malone had 4 more ppg and Pippen had 1.5 more bpg. But Scottie was far more efficient with .541 TS% to Malone .485 TS%. Pippen's defense was terrific that series as he provided tremendous value by being the primary rim protector for the Bulls. Pippen had the better series. I'm not trading 1.5 blocks and better shooting for 4 more points on poor efficiency. Pip gets 2nd.
- '98 Finals: Malone has a better series but Pippen performs way better than a 35-year old Stockton so Pip was the 3rd best performer.

So in 6 Finals, Pippen's performances rank 2(a), 2, 3, 3a, 2, and 3. In half of their Finals, Pippen is the 2nd best player on the floor and in the other half he's the 3rd best. It's weird how that 6-0 Finals record looks different when you consider the second best player of MJ's rivals. Pippen is the best second banana of all-time and that certainly can't hurt when it comes to winning.

I get that Russell is hard to understand for many. I'll let Havlicek explain it:


Russell elevated his teammates on both ends of the floor. He did the hard things that his team needed and made the game easier for his team. His style allowed his teammates to make sacrifices as well for the good of the team. Russell played to win, so he got outplayed in just one series in his career and that was the only time he lost to Wilt.

Disagree that Jordan typically had the stronger rosters in the finals.

91
You can say Pippen played Magic to a draw but Magic (19/12/8) was better game 1 with the big triple double. Pippen was better games 2 and closeout game 5 although Magic had a ton of assist he shot poorly. Magic was better game 4 and game 3 was probably even. Pippen playing Magic, who was 2nd in MVP voting that year, about even was impressive though. Even if you take Divac out what the Lakers got from Perkins and Worthy was no more if not less impressive than what Chicago got from Grant/Paxson/Cartwright. Perkins to me was more probably more valuable than Grant. Perk was 5/13 from 3 as a big and averaged 1.5 blocks a game. He averaged 17/8 while Grant averaged 15/8. Worthy missed the closeout game but played well in the series averaging 19ppg.

92- Drexler averaged 25/8/5 and Pippen averaged 21/9/7. Pippen was better game 1 but Drexler was better the rest of the series. The closeout game was probably about even. But Portlands supporting cast of Porter, Kersey, Ainge, Cliff Robinson, Buck Williams, and Duckworth was better than Grant, Paxson, Wennington, and Cartwright. Its not even close. That Portland team was deep.

93- no doubt Pippen was better than Kevin Johnson. But Thunder Dan, Dumas, and Ainge was just as good as Grant, Paxson, BJ and Cartwright. Barkley was amazing and KJ was very good (17/3/7) but with Pippen the Bulls had 2 of the 3 best players on the court.

95- take Jordan and Kemp out and Payton (18/6/7) was just as good as Pippen in this series (16/8/5). I mean this was probably a draw. Now would you take Kukoc (13/5/4) Rodman (8/15) and Longley (12/4) over Detlef (16/5/3), Hawkins (13/4) and Perkins (11/5)? This was Rodmans best finals with the Bulls but Detlef was better than Kukoc (Detelf was a good defender too). I would take Longley over Brickowski which might be the difference.

97- i would take Pippen over Stockton but Pippen shot poorly in the series (42%) averaging 20/8/4 while Stockton was efficient (50%) averaging 15/4/9. Kukoc averaged 8/3 on 41% while Rodman averaged 2/8 only getting double digit boards in 2 games. Were they better then Hornacek 12/4/2 and Russell 11/6 along with Eisely? The games in this series were close. Bulls won by double digits game 2 and Utah did game 3.

98- Jordans supporting cast was better this series. Pippen obviously got hurt and was ineffective in the closeout game 6 but Kukoc played well games 5 and 6. But no, Jordan didnt always have the better supporting cast in the finals.

You caught me exaggerating I was making the most extreme case I could.

If I'm being honest, the difference between MJ and everyone else in most of those Finals is impressive and was often the biggest single contributor to the Bulls success.

91- I agree on how well the guys on both teams played. Pippen and Magic were about even only due to the Bulls defense of Pip and MJ on Magic. Sleepy Sam had a good series.

92- That Portland bench was very good. But MJ vastly outperformed Drexler. He opens with the shrug game and you could just see that MJ was on another level. Pippen also had a better game 5 that Drexler but Drexler had a better series overall.

93- That Suns team could score in a hurry and Majerle was pretty good for them. However, he was unable to really slow MJ down. KJ actually had the most success preventing penetration but MJ could shoot over him quite easily. Barkley was good but gapped by Jordan.

95- Agree on the Glove and Pip playing to a draw in that series. The Sonics were the only team that looked like they could beat those Bulls because MJ wasn't the best player on the floor for once (he was even with Kemp, imo). Rodman did have a great series, as you said. 15 rebounds per game is phenomenal. The Bulls defense was also very good in this series thanks to Pip, Rodman, and MJ. I'd take Longley over Brickowski who didn't seem to do very much in that series.

97- I agree that Scottie shot poorly and Stockton was solid. The Bulls dug up Bison Dele who took quite a few minutes from Rodman and played the heady veteran role well. MJ is a good deal better than Malone in this series but the Jazz probably have the better cast once you look past Pippen and the two-headed snake of Rodman/Dele.

98- Agreed.

You are correct that MJ does not always have the best supporting cast. But he had good teams and Pippen who was sometimes the second best player on the court. Nevertheless, MJ outperforms every one of his rivals in all his 6 Finals but one! I'm not sure that can be said of anyone else.

I think it's pretty indisputable that MJ had the best supporting cast in all 6 of those finals. Which series do you think the other team's #1 option had a better cast? On paper, the Sun's cast around Barkley looks the best. But then when you factor in defense - it's pretty clear the Bulls cast was better. They won 55 games without MJ the next year. It's no contest imo.

[MavsDirk41]

I'm not sure why you're being defensive over me acknowledging that MJ was the best player on the court. That's weird. I didn't knock him for it or give him credit for it because the topic was his teammates. Speaking of which:

- '91 Finals: Pippen outcored, outrebounded, and had twice as many steals per game as Magic. Pip also player great defense on Worthy and shut Magic down when he was on him. Pippen was easily the best player in the closeout Game 5 of that series. Magic does not have a clear edge over Pippen. I'm fine with calling them 2a and 2b.
- '92 Finals: Pippen had 20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 on .561 TS% and Drexler had 24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1.0 on .522 TS%. Pippen had better efficiency and better defense that Clyde in that series. He was the second best player on the court.
- '93 Finals: Barkley was the second best player on the court and Pippen was third. Pretty clear.
- '96 Finals: The first Finals where MJ is not the best hands down the best player on the floor. Kemp had a series on par with MJ's. So they're 1a and 1b. Pippen and Payton also performed similarly. So they're 3a and 3b.
- '97 Finals: Pippen and Malone had the same apg and spg. Malone had 4 more ppg and Pippen had 1.5 more bpg. But Scottie was far more efficient with .541 TS% to Malone .485 TS%. Pippen's defense was terrific that series as he provided tremendous value by being the primary rim protector for the Bulls. Pippen had the better series. I'm not trading 1.5 blocks and better shooting for 4 more points on poor efficiency. Pip gets 2nd.
- '98 Finals: Malone has a better series but Pippen performs way better than a 35-year old Stockton so Pip was the 3rd best performer.

So in 6 Finals, Pippen's performances rank 2(a), 2, 3, 3a, 2, and 3. In half of their Finals, Pippen is the 2nd best player on the floor and in the other half he's the 3rd best. It's weird how that 6-0 Finals record looks different when you consider the second best player of MJ's rivals. Pippen is the best second banana of all-time and that certainly can't hurt when it comes to winning.

I get that Russell is hard to understand for many. I'll let Havlicek explain it:


Russell elevated his teammates on both ends of the floor. He did the hard things that his team needed and made the game easier for his team. His style allowed his teammates to make sacrifices as well for the good of the team. Russell played to win, so he got outplayed in just one series in his career and that was the only time he lost to Wilt.

Disagree that Jordan typically had the stronger rosters in the finals.

91
You can say Pippen played Magic to a draw but Magic (19/12/8) was better game 1 with the big triple double. Pippen was better games 2 and closeout game 5 although Magic had a ton of assist he shot poorly. Magic was better game 4 and game 3 was probably even. Pippen playing Magic, who was 2nd in MVP voting that year, about even was impressive though. Even if you take Divac out what the Lakers got from Perkins and Worthy was no more if not less impressive than what Chicago got from Grant/Paxson/Cartwright. Perkins to me was more probably more valuable than Grant. Perk was 5/13 from 3 as a big and averaged 1.5 blocks a game. He averaged 17/8 while Grant averaged 15/8. Worthy missed the closeout game but played well in the series averaging 19ppg.

92- Drexler averaged 25/8/5 and Pippen averaged 21/9/7. Pippen was better game 1 but Drexler was better the rest of the series. The closeout game was probably about even. But Portlands supporting cast of Porter, Kersey, Ainge, Cliff Robinson, Buck Williams, and Duckworth was better than Grant, Paxson, Wennington, and Cartwright. Its not even close. That Portland team was deep.

93- no doubt Pippen was better than Kevin Johnson. But Thunder Dan, Dumas, and Ainge was just as good as Grant, Paxson, BJ and Cartwright. Barkley was amazing and KJ was very good (17/3/7) but with Pippen the Bulls had 2 of the 3 best players on the court.

95- take Jordan and Kemp out and Payton (18/6/7) was just as good as Pippen in this series (16/8/5). I mean this was probably a draw. Now would you take Kukoc (13/5/4) Rodman (8/15) and Longley (12/4) over Detlef (16/5/3), Hawkins (13/4) and Perkins (11/5)? This was Rodmans best finals with the Bulls but Detlef was better than Kukoc (Detelf was a good defender too). I would take Longley over Brickowski which might be the difference.

97- i would take Pippen over Stockton but Pippen shot poorly in the series (42%) averaging 20/8/4 while Stockton was efficient (50%) averaging 15/4/9. Kukoc averaged 8/3 on 41% while Rodman averaged 2/8 only getting double digit boards in 2 games. Were they better then Hornacek 12/4/2 and Russell 11/6 along with Eisely? The games in this series were close. Bulls won by double digits game 2 and Utah did game 3.

98- Jordans supporting cast was better this series. Pippen obviously got hurt and was ineffective in the closeout game 6 but Kukoc played well games 5 and 6. But no, Jordan didnt always have the better supporting cast in the finals.

You caught me exaggerating I was making the most extreme case I could.

If I'm being honest, the difference between MJ and everyone else in most of those Finals is impressive and was often the biggest single contributor to the Bulls success.

91- I agree on how well the guys on both teams played. Pippen and Magic were about even only due to the Bulls defense of Pip and MJ on Magic. Sleepy Sam had a good series.

92- That Portland bench was very good. But MJ vastly outperformed Drexler. He opens with the shrug game and you could just see that MJ was on another level. Pippen also had a better game 5 that Drexler but Drexler had a better series overall.

93- That Suns team could score in a hurry and Majerle was pretty good for them. However, he was unable to really slow MJ down. KJ actually had the most success preventing penetration but MJ could shoot over him quite easily. Barkley was good but gapped by Jordan.

95- Agree on the Glove and Pip playing to a draw in that series. The Sonics were the only team that looked like they could beat those Bulls because MJ wasn't the best player on the floor for once (he was even with Kemp, imo). Rodman did have a great series, as you said. 15 rebounds per game is phenomenal. The Bulls defense was also very good in this series thanks to Pip, Rodman, and MJ. I'd take Longley over Brickowski who didn't seem to do very much in that series.

97- I agree that Scottie shot poorly and Stockton was solid. The Bulls dug up Bison Dele who took quite a few minutes from Rodman and played the heady veteran role well. MJ is a good deal better than Malone in this series but the Jazz probably have the better cast once you look past Pippen and the two-headed snake of Rodman/Dele.

98- Agreed.

You are correct that MJ does not always have the best supporting cast. But he had good teams and Pippen who was sometimes the second best player on the court. Nevertheless, MJ outperforms every one of his rivals in all his 6 Finals but one! I'm not sure that can be said of anyone else.

I agree with you sir.
After Jordan had a big game in game 3 of the 96 finals i think everyone, them included, thought the series was over. Then Seattle mopped the floor with them in game 4. Detlef to me was the X factor for them because he played really well for them in those finals. He could score, pass the ball, rebound, defend. And of course Kemp was awesome. 93 finals was the best i ever saw Barkley. Of course he was league MVP and then in the finals Chicago couldnt keep him off the boards. He ate up the Bulls. Jordan was better but Barkley was phenomenal. The 98 finals was two old teams just trying to make it to the finish line lol.

Jordans worst finals was 96
I think Barkley was the best player against the Bulls in the finals
Kemp/Payton was the best duo against the Bulls in the finals.
Portland was the deepest team the Bulls played in the finals.