MVP Rankings 1.0

[kaiiu2324]

Indeed.

All these Lebron fans are making the case why Lebron IS NOT the MVP.

Look a MVP gets the job done. There's no, my teammates suck and that's why we suck argument. Part of being an MVP is making your team play up to their potential. Lead by example.

You think any of the Lakers have an excuse to take a night off when the best player in the league plays with a broken finger?

The problem with Lebron fans is that they've already decided that they want Lebron to be MVP and they'll craft whatever arguments they can to make that happen. If you step back and look at what a MVP is...

A MVP is what Lebron did last year. That's MVP worthy. Last year he was the very definition of MVP. Last year, I said Lebron was the MVP. This year so far it is Kobe pretty clearly. I don't understand why this is so difficult.

So what did LeBron do last year that was so much different than this year?

Oh wait, NOTHING. What`s the difference then? Maybe it`s the three new starters, or the adjustment that comes with trading for Shaq. But they`re on pace to win 60 games regardless. How is that held against Bron?

Laker fans just jump at a chance to downplay James any chance they get. It`s pretty sad. You`ve got the best team in the league, why not just be happy with that?

this

[LebronsCavs]

Well LeBron made Eric Snow, Drew Gooden, and Sasha Pavlovic effective NBA players by that standard, so now what?

So now what? So what now? What are you talking about...back in 04/05? When the only decent team in the East was the Pistons? Please. This league is all about what have you done for me lately...and Lebron was still SWEPT in the Finals. Why even bring that up?

What Lebron did at the age of 22 was a phenomenal feat. His team was severely over matched vs those Pistons.

[JimMurray]

People harp on Mike Brown a lot (much of it well deserved), but his formula of great defense and LeBron's offense gets results.

Not in the playoffs it doesn't.

Define effective. CLE last year won 66 games and made the ECF - can you say with a straight face CLE had more talent than LA, BOS or ORL? I think by any honest and objective measure most fans would agree CLE "over-achieved" based on their personnel and coaching limitations. Several Kobe fans have admitted as much in this thread.

Yeah...and last year Lebron won the MVP...which was well deserved. The problem with that is Cleveland set a precedent that they are a team capable of winning 66 games and finishing with the best record in the NBA. This year Cleveland got better, and are somehow worse. Even if they don't win 66 games, they should still be in contention for the best record...which they are not up to this point. That doesn't preclude the fact that they still might contend for the leagues best record...but as of now, they have not.

CLE right now is 18-7 and a handful of games from the top seed despite Shaq missing a ton of games and Delonte West having public mental disorder issues. By any objective measure teams like LA, ORL, BOS - they STILL have more talent than CLE.

Dually noted, but Kobe was also missing Pau and Bynum for a minute earlier this year, played a tougher schedule and are 19-4. Also, say what you want about their early home game disparity, if they keep this up on the road considering the brutal schedule they have coming up, that will solidify Kobe's spot even more. I don't think the schedule makers did the Lakers any favors. I'd much rather have a balanced Schedule like Cleveland or Boston than have to deal with the Hell the Lakers are about to go through. Not to mention...now Kobe has to do it with a broken index finger "ON HIS SHOOTING HAND". You and I both know that Lebron wouldn't play through something like that. I cite 2007 and his missing 7 games due to a "SPRAINED" index finger on his "NON SHOOTING HAND" as my evidence.

CLE is basically expected to leapfrog teams that have far more overall talent solely because of Lebron. I don't think you can label that "effectiveness", it's basically an argument that for Lebron to repeat as MVP Lebron has to over-achieve individually and with his team again.

Yeah...they are. If you finish with the leagues best record, then add Shaq and some meat and potatoes guys for depth, I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation. And it's not over-achieving if you proved you could do it, with less talent.

I think you have to make that distinction because it's not like Lebron is Stephon Marbury putting up numbers on bad teams. He's putting up these numbers on contending teams.

You're absolutely right, and if the Lakers fall off, Lebron will snatch up the MVP...that goes without saying. BUT....all things considered with Kobe's injuries and playing hurt, coupled with the Brutal schedule they are about to endure and Kobe's numbers hold up, if they finish with the leagues best record...Kobe gets the hardware.

[JimMurray]

Well LeBron made Eric Snow, Drew Gooden, and Sasha Pavlovic effective NBA players by that standard, so now what?

So now what? So what now? What are you talking about...back in 04/05? When the only decent team in the East was the Pistons? Please. This league is all about what have you done for me lately...and Lebron was still SWEPT in the Finals. Why even bring that up?

What Lebron did at the age of 22 was a phenomenal feat. His team was severely over matched vs those Pistons.

Props for what he did against the Pistons, because you're right..they were better than the Cavs. However those Pistons were overrated because of what they did to a wounded Lakers team in the Finals in 04. Put those same Cavs in the Western Conference and they don't make it past the first round...if they make the playoffs at all.

[JimMurray]

You brought up what Kobe did in 05-06, how is this any different

Thats when Kobe's game changed noticeably. It's the year that he took Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, and Lamar Odom and had the best team in the NBA that year down 3-1, and were a rebound away from putting them away in 6. Kobe found a way to use Kwame, Smush, Walton, and even Brian Cook to make that team respectable (45 wins) in arguably the toughest conference of all time.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

You brought up what Kobe did in 05-06, how is this any different

Thats when Kobe's game changed noticeably. It's the year that he took Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, and Lamar Odom and had the best team in the NBA that year down 3-1, and were a rebound away from putting them away in 6. Kobe found a way to use Kwame, Smush, Walton, and even Brian Cook to make that team respectable (45 wins) in arguably the toughest conference of all time.

And subsequently quit on his team in the second half of game 7.

[poopdamoop]

And LeBron found a way to pull Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Eric Snow into a finals team. That`s why LeBron and Kobe are two of the best players ever, and I`ve never denied that. I just find it amusing that you completely ignore both sides of the argument.

Btw the Suns that year were worse than the Pistons, so calling Detroit a decent team and then calling Phoenix the best team in the league is laughable. Really showing off your bias there.

[Benedict_Boozer]

You brought up what Kobe did in 05-06, how is this any different

Thats when Kobe's game changed noticeably. It's the year that he took Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, and Lamar Odom and had the best team in the NBA that year down 3-1, and were a rebound away from putting them away in 6. Kobe found a way to use Kwame, Smush, Walton, and even Brian Cook to make that team respectable (45 wins) in arguably the toughest conference of all time.

I gotta give you credit. That is some masterful spin there

Let's say the shoe was on the other foot and Lebron blew a 3-1 lead. I'm pretty sure you would say "Lebron choked and couldn't close the deal when he had a team down 3-1 and lost in the first round", but since it's Kobe, you phrase it as a positive that he blew a 3-1 series lead.

Much like you bring up the finals sweep for Lebron and dismiss the fact he took out a SUPERIOR Pistons team. Phrasing makes all the difference.

Some of the Kobe fans in here are either lawyers or debate champions, one of the two for sure

[JimMurray]

Btw the Suns that year were worse than the Pistons, so calling Detroit a decent team and then calling Phoenix the best team in the league is laughable. Really showing off your bias there.

Bulls***. That Pistons team was VASTLY overrated. They beat a Laker team that start Shaq, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, Kobe Bryant, and Derek Fisher in the Finals. Good for them. Payton was backing up Fisher, Malone was injured.

[poopdamoop]

That was in 2004, LeBron went to the finals in 2007. Besides, how does that make the Suns any better

[tracey_nice]

I personally dont give a **** whether Kobe or LeBron wins MVP, but to say there isn`t an argument for either of them is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). I`m just arguing LeBron`s case, cause God knows Kobe has enough supporters already.

We have our very own modern day sophist.

[JimMurray]

I gotta give you credit. That is some masterful spin there

Let's say the shoe was on the other foot and Lebron blew a 3-1 lead. I'm pretty sure you would say "Lebron choked and couldn't close the deal when he had a team down 3-1 and lost in the first round", but since it's Kobe, you phrase it as a positive that he blew a 3-1 series lead.

No...because I don't fault Lebron for getting swept in the Finals. Even you have to admit, that Lebrons run to the finals that year was against ridiculously weak teams. Props for getting by the Pistons, but he showed up to the finals before his time and was subsequently run. I don't think any sane person can fault him for that. Just as I don't fault Kobe for taking the best Suns team of this Decade to seven games and coming up short. That Laker team should not have made the playoffs.

Much like you bring up the finals sweep for Lebron and dismiss the fact he took out a SUPERIOR Pistons team. Phrasing makes all the difference.

Superior yes....but were they more superior then say, the Suns were to the Lakers? Absolutely not. The disparity between the Suns and Lakers was like this

Suns>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lakers

The disparity between the Pistons and Cavs was like this.

Pistons>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cavs

[JimMurray]

That was in 2004, LeBron went to the finals in 2007. Besides, how does that make the Suns any better

My bad....doesn't change the argument. The Suns were way better than that Pistons team.

[poopdamoop]

Just because you keep saying it doesn`t make it true. The Suns were horrendous defensively. I would have loved to see LeBron`s offensive numbers against a Marion and Diaw frontline. And if the Pistons bottled up Kobe so effectively in 2004, imagine what they would have done to him 3 years later when he had literally no offensive help.

But this is way off topic, so I`ll leave it at that.

[Benedict_Boozer]

I'll admit...I'm in Law School, but my arguments are sound and merit worthy. I don't think I'm pulling the wool over anybody's eyes here. I just know what I'm talking about.

I knew it I saw you tried to remove it from your original post, full disclosure is your friend!

But as poopdamop said the conversation went way off-topic. Bottom line I think most agree Kobe is ahead at the moment but alot can change, only 25% done with the season.

[JimMurray]

Just because you keep saying it doesn`t make it true. The Suns were horrendous defensively. I would have loved to see LeBron`s offensive numbers against a Marion and Diaw frontline. And if the Pistons bottled up Kobe so effectively in 2004, imagine what they would have done to him 3 years later when he had literally no offensive help.

But this is way off topic, so I`ll leave it at that.

The Suns wouldn't have had to play any defense, they would have ran the Cavs right out of the Gym. The Cavs had perhaps the slowest team in the NBA that year, they were a half court team. And three years later, the Pistons were not as quick, or as good defensively. I don't know what Kobe would have done, but it wouldn't have been a repeat of 2004.

[JimMurray]

I knew it I saw you tried to remove it from your original post, full disclosure is your friend!

Yeah I did.... I don't like tooting my own horn. But I'll admit it.

But as poopdamop said the conversation went way off-topic. Bottom line I think most agree Kobe is ahead at the moment but alot can change, only 25% done with the season.

Yes...I'll agree with this 100%. I'm still interested in how the Lakers fare over the next 37 games.

[Chris Hansen]

How was PHX worse than det without there best player for the series in 07? There front line consisted of a 6'7 power forward and a 6'8 Center.

Det was even favoured to win it all that year after round one.

[NYK 455]

My only problem with Kobe as MVP is that he isn't as valuable to his team as some other candidates around the league and some of the past winners. James, Nash, Nowitzki, Garnett, Duncan were all crucial to there teams success, their teams wouldn't have even made the playoffs without them. Without Kobe, the Lakers are still a 50 plus win team. But the fact that he's the man on the best team puts him near the top....

[Dat Pass]

Wow, how did the 09-10 MVP race turn into an argument about the Suns and the Pistons?!?

Lets say the Lakers go 67-15 (1st in West) and the Cavs go 59-23 (3rd in East).

Neither team faces major injuries.

Kobe's numbers are 28-5-5 on 49% shooting.
LeBron's numbers are 28-7-7 on 50% shooting.

Who wins the MVP?