76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[TheNewEra]

So if Ben gets traded and immediately starts playing again will the league levy huge fines against him and Rich Paul? If you're going to claim mental illness and needing to be away that can't end just because you were traded and now everything is hunky dory. League needs to step in and either decide Ben is having legitimate issues and needs help or he's faking it to try and get paid while not playing.

The two options:

1. Legit mental illness. In that case a trade isn't going to change things and he should be out for an undetermined amount of time to get help. If he plays immediately after the trade then he should be fined heavily.

2. Not legit. He's fined heavily and Rich Paul gets fined even more heavily for violating rules and basically committing fraud.

His problems are with Philly and the situation in PHILLY how in tf is the narrative keep being repeated lol? If you are in a toxic relationship either business or personal it tends to get better once you are somewhere else

[Nuntius]

So if Ben gets traded and immediately starts playing again will the league levy huge fines against him and Rich Paul? If you're going to claim mental illness and needing to be away that can't end just because you were traded and now everything is hunky dory.

Not if the root cause of his mental issues are the 76ers.

Not a mental health professional, but it seems highly unlikely there's a legitimate mental health issue he has that would vanish instantly when he's traded to another team.

I'm not a mental health professional either but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Work environments can definitely turn toxic and when that happens what someone needs to do is to remove themselves from that environment.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Ya'll's hate for Ben Simmons and ignorance on mental illness leads to just some wild takes.

why don't you ask yourself why Ben is getting this all but unanimous level of hate?
why he's getting so little benefit of the doubt?

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Because people don’t understand mental health? You’re whole post is just assuming Ben is lying when you’re 100% guessing just like everyone else not named Ben Simmons.

People don't know he's faking, they just don't believe his story and don't give him the benefit of the doubt.
And when you touch such a sensible and delicate chord you inevitably generate strong feelings.
Positive, if you did it right and your claim sounds credible.
Negative, if it appears you are using it to get what you want.

I am not going to repeat for the tenth time in this thread why the unfolding of this story undermines Ben's credibility.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[TheNewEra]

No matter how much hyperbole you couch it in, it doesn't obscure what a stupid position you're advocating. Morey might not be offered the assets he wants now but the idea that he should basically just release Simmons as a result is so beyond ridiculous.

If you are selling your house and the offers you received are under what you think it is worth, is your solution to just abandon it? Try and use a modicum of common sense here.

This position is no less stupid than Morey’s idiotic comment of “This can last 4 years”. So what’s Morey going to do just hold onto Simmons for the length of his contract and fine him? That fine money doesn’t go back to the 76ers. They’re literally paying for an asset that’s not contributing to their team.

What Morey is doing is keeping a house that he doesn’t even live in, instead of renting it out or selling it for below market value.

I guess you don't really own a lot of assets because there are tons of times when someone holds an asset they are not using because they think its value will rise over time. "Renting" is not an option here so I'm going to ignore that aspect. If you can afford to hold onto a house you're not using when you are only receiving "below market value" offers - that's pretty much what people always do. I bought a house. I still owned my condo that I could not rent (HOAs can burn in hell). I received offers on the condo that I am and my realtor thought were too low. I could afford to carry both places. I did until I received an offer that I thought was fair. Again, by your logic, I should have just canceled my insurance on the condo and then burnt it to the ground.

I don't understand the relevance or equivalency of Morey's this can last 4 years comment so I'll just assume it's another attempt at deflection.

A house and a human being would have two different reactions in these scenarios

[TheNewEra]

Can the Sixers file grievance with NBA once Ben's "mental illness" vanishes and starts playing immediately being traded to another team?

Ben Simmons playing after a trade would be the most anticipated outcome. You would have a better argument if Simmons didn’t play after being traded then it means it’s not about being in Philly causing his stress or anxiety or whatever.

[Doug_12]

So if Ben gets traded and immediately starts playing again will the league levy huge fines against him and Rich Paul? If you're going to claim mental illness and needing to be away that can't end just because you were traded and now everything is hunky dory. League needs to step in and either decide Ben is having legitimate issues and needs help or he's faking it to try and get paid while not playing.

The two options:

1. Legit mental illness. In that case a trade isn't going to change things and he should be out for an undetermined amount of time to get help. If he plays immediately after the trade then he should be fined heavily.

2. Not legit. He's fined heavily and Rich Paul gets fined even more heavily for violating rules and basically committing fraud.

I'm about to agree, but this is not that black and white. It can very well turn out that his mental illness is caused by the environment. It can very well be that this environment is not objectively toxic, but in his specific case it is making his situation worse. In this case getting him traded might do the job: even if he is not fully functioning, he might be ok enough to play.

so how does one prove that this is a toxic environment for one person when there are countless members of the same job organization that hasn't filed one grievance against said organization?

No one needs to prove that the 76ers is a toxic environment. The only thing that needs to be proven is that Simmons is ready to play or not.

Proving that the 76ers is a toxic environment would be required if Simmons was suing the 76ers for money beyond his contract.

[Myth]

As somebody who works in mental health, there are times when you assume somebody is manipulating the system, but there isn't much you can do about that because it is too hard to prove they are lying. The part I turn to is the idea that most companies in the US don't continue to pay you while you are on a mental health leave. During a leave, your job is protected, you can apply for some assistance from your state (Good luck qualifying for that, Ben), and you can continue receiving benefits (that you still pay for). I don't know what systems are in place in the NBA regarding mental health leaves, but the idea that not getting paid while on mental health leave is causing worse mental health would not fly in most other places.

[Dominator83]

This position is no less stupid than Morey’s idiotic comment of “This can last 4 years”. So what’s Morey going to do just hold onto Simmons for the length of his contract and fine him? That fine money doesn’t go back to the 76ers. They’re literally paying for an asset that’s not contributing to their team.

What Morey is doing is keeping a house that he doesn’t even live in, instead of renting it out or selling it for below market value.

I guess you don't really own a lot of assets because there are tons of times when someone holds an asset they are not using because they think its value will rise over time. "Renting" is not an option here so I'm going to ignore that aspect. If you can afford to hold onto a house you're not using when you are only receiving "below market value" offers - that's pretty much what people always do. I bought a house. I still owned my condo that I could not rent (HOAs can burn in hell). I received offers on the condo that I am and my realtor thought were too low. I could afford to carry both places. I did until I received an offer that I thought was fair. Again, by your logic, I should have just canceled my insurance on the condo and then burnt it to the ground.

I don't understand the relevance or equivalency of Morey's this can last 4 years comment so I'll just assume it's another attempt at deflection.

Really, you don't see the relevance? It's quite simple, in my opinion. What Pointgod is saying is that Simmons' value will not get any better in that time period if he continues to not play. His value will stay in the levels that it is right now (which is lower than his value was before this saga begun) which means that Morey will eventually have to sell for below market value. He's just extending the inevitable.

I agree in this sense. His value isn't going to go up. If anything it's going to continue to plummet. What other teams see is that, faking it or not, he's proven that he's unreliable either way. That the moment everything isn't all peaches and cream, he mentally checks out.

But even aside from all that, even before all this he was an overrated as a player. I mean yes defensively, he's as good as advertised. But offensively he really isn't very good. The whole "7 foot point guard" thing had people thinking he would be the next Giannis but he's not. One thing that already made him less attractive since his salary pays him like a 2-way stud when he's only a 1-way stud.

His value was lowered also by Morey ticking off other GM's with his absurd trade offers. Like asking Golden State for Wiggins, Wiseman, #7, #14, AND two future 1sts? Or asking San Antonio for control over the next 7 1st round picks (4 outright 3 swaps)? Or asking Portland for CJ and 3 1sts?

To use that condo analogy: if your Condo was worth say $200,000, and you were asking for a firm $350,000, you would still be sitting on that condo.

[BullyKing]

This position is no less stupid than Morey’s idiotic comment of “This can last 4 years”. So what’s Morey going to do just hold onto Simmons for the length of his contract and fine him? That fine money doesn’t go back to the 76ers. They’re literally paying for an asset that’s not contributing to their team.

What Morey is doing is keeping a house that he doesn’t even live in, instead of renting it out or selling it for below market value.

I guess you don't really own a lot of assets because there are tons of times when someone holds an asset they are not using because they think its value will rise over time. "Renting" is not an option here so I'm going to ignore that aspect. If you can afford to hold onto a house you're not using when you are only receiving "below market value" offers - that's pretty much what people always do. I bought a house. I still owned my condo that I could not rent (HOAs can burn in hell). I received offers on the condo that I am and my realtor thought were too low. I could afford to carry both places. I did until I received an offer that I thought was fair. Again, by your logic, I should have just canceled my insurance on the condo and then burnt it to the ground.

I don't understand the relevance or equivalency of Morey's this can last 4 years comment so I'll just assume it's another attempt at deflection.

Really, you don't see the relevance? It's quite simple, in my opinion. What Pointgod is saying is that Simmons' value will not get any better in that time period if he continues to not play. His value will stay in the levels that it is right now (which is lower than his value was before this saga begun) which means that Morey will eventually have to sell for below market value. He's just extending the inevitable.

Except they don't relate at all. One is negotiating posture (we will wait forever before we accept a bad deal) that may or may not have any impact on actual negotiations at all. What we were talking about is not statements though but actions. His position was that the Sixers should just release Simmons from his contract - which is just an impossibly stupid idea. His statement would be relevant if his position was that the Sixers should just accept the best offer they have right now even if it's not what they want. I disagree with, but understand, that position. But that is a world of difference from his assertion that the Sixers should essentially just cut him.

[BlazersBroncos]

Ya, Rich is just murdering Ben's value.

If he isnt faking this, then there is no guarantee he recovers mentally for whichever team he is traded to. So teams must look at this as even more of a gamble, thus relegating them to offering less and making Morey more unlikely to trade him.

If he is faking it, then your a team trading for a guy with a track record of falsifying a mental health issue to allow him to collect checks while not playing. Its a signal of a completley immoral, unethical, loser of a human being. And you dont want to trade for that kind of character.

I just dont see who in their right mind would move serious assets for him at this point. Ben and Clutch totally, fully messed this up. I think he might be sitting for a year at this point.

[Doug_12]

The World According to Tomjas:

1. An employee can refuse to work
2. Months later, the employee can claim they can't work because of a mental illness.
3. The employee can refuse to provide any information about this or when they might be able to return to work.
4. The employer must still pay the employee all of his wages with no questions asked.

With that in mind, I have only one question.

TOMJAS, WILL YOU PLEASE HIRE ME????

I also agree w/ this. The employer has no business of knowing what my problem is. They only need to know that according to a qualified, government appointed, 3rd party doctor that I can work or not.

in my view in such cases your employer shouldn't pay you, but you should be covered by an either private or public insurance system.
this way you avoid employers profiling candidates based on health risk or, even worse, pregnancy risk
but then you must be ready to provide serious evidence to get your money, to the insurance

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Yes and I think Simmons shall provide these evidences to whoever covers his salary during injuries.

If that's the 76ers, then them. But it shall be nothing more than an impartial professional's evaluation. Simmons shall have the option to stay away from the organization and still be paid (if the issue is real).

[Nuntius]

I guess you don't really own a lot of assets because there are tons of times when someone holds an asset they are not using because they think its value will rise over time. "Renting" is not an option here so I'm going to ignore that aspect. If you can afford to hold onto a house you're not using when you are only receiving "below market value" offers - that's pretty much what people always do. I bought a house. I still owned my condo that I could not rent (HOAs can burn in hell). I received offers on the condo that I am and my realtor thought were too low. I could afford to carry both places. I did until I received an offer that I thought was fair. Again, by your logic, I should have just canceled my insurance on the condo and then burnt it to the ground.

I don't understand the relevance or equivalency of Morey's this can last 4 years comment so I'll just assume it's another attempt at deflection.

Really, you don't see the relevance? It's quite simple, in my opinion. What Pointgod is saying is that Simmons' value will not get any better in that time period if he continues to not play. His value will stay in the levels that it is right now (which is lower than his value was before this saga begun) which means that Morey will eventually have to sell for below market value. He's just extending the inevitable.

Except they don't relate at all. One is negotiating posture (we will wait forever before we accept a bad deal) that may or may not have any impact on actual negotiations at all. What we were talking about is not statements though but actions. His position was that the Sixers should just release Simmons from his contract - which is just an impossibly stupid idea. His statement would be relevant if his position was that the Sixers should just accept the best offer they have right now even if it's not what they want. I disagree with, but understand, that position. But that is a world of difference from his assertion that the Sixers should essentially just cut him.

Let's get something clear. Pointgod never asserted that the Sixers should just cut him. His position is that the Sixers should have already traded him during the summer and that Morey failed in not doing so and asking for too much. The cut him part came from a different poster and what Pointgod send in relation to that was that it's not any different than Morey's "we can keep this going for 4 years" posturing.

[NyKnicks1714]

Not if the root cause of his mental issues are the 76ers.

Not a mental health professional, but it seems highly unlikely there's a legitimate mental health issue he has that would vanish instantly when he's traded to another team.

I'm not a mental health professional either but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Work environments can definitely turn toxic and when that happens what someone needs to do is to remove themselves from that environment.

There's nothing toxic about his work environment. Are we still talking about very reasonable post-game comments made by Doc and Embiid five months ago? Because 1) that's not toxic, and 2) the organization has tried to accommodate him plenty since then. It was only after he decided not to show up, and after his salary was withheld, and after he showed up to collect his salary that he started making these claims.

[TheNewEra]

Ya, Rich is just murdering Ben's value.

If he isnt faking this, then there is no guarantee he recovers mentally for whichever team he is traded to. So teams must look at this as even more of a gamble, thus relegating them to offering less and making Morey more unlikely to trade him.

If he is faking it, then your a team trading for a guy with a track record of falsifying a mental health issue to allow him to collect checks while not playing. Its a signal of a completley immoral, unethical, loser of a human being. And you dont want to trade for that kind of character.

I just dont see who in their right mind would move serious assets for him at this point. Ben and Clutch totally, fully messed this up. I think he might be sitting for a year at this point.

From everything reported it’s been said anywhere but Philly. California teams were a early preference as a rumor but even Rich Paul came out and said soon after that any team would be fine. This doesn’t feel like a AD situation that Klutch was openly trying to block certain teams.

[NBA Moses]

As somebody who works in mental health, there are times when you assume somebody is manipulating the system, but there isn't much you can do about that because it is too hard to prove they are lying. The part I turn to is the idea that most companies in the US don't continue to pay you while you are on a mental health leave. During a leave, your job is protected, you can apply for some assistance from your state (Good luck qualifying for that, Ben), and you can continue receiving benefits (that you still pay for). I don't know what systems are in place in the NBA regarding mental health leaves, but the idea that not getting paid while on mental health leave is causing worse mental health would not fly in most other places.

I think the nba owners need to tighten up their cba regarding holdouts.

In the real world Ben Simmons wouldnt get paid a cent with his situation(refusing to work/due to mental anguish , he would be fired and become an issue for social services.

[tbhawksfan1]

I'm just totally surprised that the other 6ers players can survive in that obviously toxic environment. BS has the perfect initials cause he's full of BS

[NBA Moses]

Ya, Rich is just murdering Ben's value.

If he isnt faking this, then there is no guarantee he recovers mentally for whichever team he is traded to. So teams must look at this as even more of a gamble, thus relegating them to offering less and making Morey more unlikely to trade him.

If he is faking it, then your a team trading for a guy with a track record of falsifying a mental health issue to allow him to collect checks while not playing. Its a signal of a completley immoral, unethical, loser of a human being. And you dont want to trade for that kind of character.

I just dont see who in their right mind would move serious assets for him at this point. Ben and Clutch totally, fully messed this up. I think he might be sitting for a year at this point.

Simmons/Rich Paul/Sixers all throwing gasoline as Ben Simmons career goes up in flames.

This might be the worst handled holdout situation in the history of sports. Its unbelievable

[Myth]

As somebody who works in mental health, there are times when you assume somebody is manipulating the system, but there isn't much you can do about that because it is too hard to prove they are lying. The part I turn to is the idea that most companies in the US don't continue to pay you while you are on a mental health leave. During a leave, your job is protected, you can apply for some assistance from your state (Good luck qualifying for that, Ben), and you can continue receiving benefits (that you still pay for). I don't know what systems are in place in the NBA regarding mental health leaves, but the idea that not getting paid while on mental health leave is causing worse mental health would not fly in most other places.

I think the nba owners need to tighten up their cba regarding holdouts.

In the real world Ben Simmons wouldnt get paid a cent with his situation(refusing to work/due to mental anguish , he would be fired and become an issue for social services.

Under FMLA, he'd get 12 weeks protected leave first (still not paid). I don't know what is standard with multi-million dollar contracts though. And the NBA is unique because of the NBA/Team contract. Most companies can choose to void a contract after that allotted time, but the NBA is unique where it is all one company but the teams are paid differently and compete with each other. I'm sure 76ers would be fine voiding his contract if he truly refused or could not return to the NBA, but would not be fine with voiding it given it seems to be a manipulation tactic to get to another team. There would almost need to be something that indicates when he returns, Phili would need to be given the option to re-up the contract, because otherwise we'd see this become the new norm of player empowerment to get to new teams or become a free agent earlier.

[azcatz11]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...you get the point.

We all know this is BS. Once he gets traded, he's playing very soon for that team. I'll make a wager with anyone on the other side he plays within a week once he gets traded

If his mental health issues are with being in and playing for Philly like reported then why would you be surprised if he played once the situation is resolved and he’s gone ?

What are his 'mental health' issues with Philly? That there were comments made publicly after the Hawks series?

Is there anything else?

[Doug_12]

As somebody who works in mental health, there are times when you assume somebody is manipulating the system, but there isn't much you can do about that because it is too hard to prove they are lying. The part I turn to is the idea that most companies in the US don't continue to pay you while you are on a mental health leave. During a leave, your job is protected, you can apply for some assistance from your state (Good luck qualifying for that, Ben), and you can continue receiving benefits (that you still pay for). I don't know what systems are in place in the NBA regarding mental health leaves, but the idea that not getting paid while on mental health leave is causing worse mental health would not fly in most other places.

I think the nba owners need to tighten up their cba regarding holdouts.

In the real world Ben Simmons wouldnt get paid a cent with his situation(refusing to work/due to mental anguish , he would be fired and become an issue for social services.

That's not true. In the majority of the EU you are covered by some kind of insurance (either private or public) in this case plus if they fire you you could sue and probably win fairly easily. (The only caveat is that you need to prove that you are not faking.)

And that's just right. These issues are not that different from other illnesses, therefore treating them similarly is the right approach.