Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[Nazrmohamed]

I thought this was a great post until you put KD at or above Lebron. That's a little disrepectful. Lebron is a full tier ahead of KD on whatever list you're making. Lebron's run from '11-'18 is at least similar to what MJ did though he got a little unlucky in his competition as you pointed out. MJ is the GOAT. Lebron is as good as you can get without being the GOAT.

im not saying he’s above LeBron, I’m saying he’s potentially above LeBron if he collects 2 or more rings before he’s done. And if he’s above LeBron (potentially) then it means he’s closer to MJ than LeBron when it’s all said and done.

If Durant wins five rings and Lebron finishes with three, Lebron will still be considered the better player unless KD unlocks some much higher level of play that he hasn't shown to date. Given he's already 30 with a tonne of miles in his rear view, I doubt that happens. Lebron was just MUCH better for a lot longer. Even last year in the Finals he was still better than Durant. It isn't just about rings.

Its always about the rings. It not being about rings was literally invented for Lebron James.

[VanWest82]

im not saying he’s above LeBron, I’m saying he’s potentially above LeBron if he collects 2 or more rings before he’s done. And if he’s above LeBron (potentially) then it means he’s closer to MJ than LeBron when it’s all said and done.

If Durant wins five rings and Lebron finishes with three, Lebron will still be considered the better player unless KD unlocks some much higher level of play that he hasn't shown to date. Given he's already 30 with a tonne of miles in his rear view, I doubt that happens. Lebron was just MUCH better for a lot longer. Even last year in the Finals he was still better than Durant. It isn't just about rings.

Its always about the rings. It not being about rings was literally invented for Lebron James.

So I guess because Iggy won FMVP and a ring in '15 over Lebron that must have meant Iggy was the more impactful player then. My bad.

[jimross]

Lebron is 34 and stuck going nowhere with the Lakers. The goat debate is over. As far as whether the competition was tougher are you kidding me? He literally created his own superteam the heat were far and away the best team in the league when he was on the roster and he still managed to somehow lose Mavericks and Spurs who were vastly inferior. He then goes back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love then wins one championship in three years.

He is a great player but Jordan would have taken that Heat team and won four championships. Why? Because that is what GOATS do

No way in hell Jordan leads the Heat to a win over the Spurs the year the Heat lost to them. LeBron was fantastic that series. The only player on the heat who showed up.

The only series Jordan wins that LeBron lost was the Mavs series. And I'd argue that Jordan doesn't lead the Cavs over the Warriors in 2016.

[Nazrmohamed]

If Durant wins five rings and Lebron finishes with three, Lebron will still be considered the better player unless KD unlocks some much higher level of play that he hasn't shown to date. Given he's already 30 with a tonne of miles in his rear view, I doubt that happens. Lebron was just MUCH better for a lot longer. Even last year in the Finals he was still better than Durant. It isn't just about rings.

Its always about the rings. It not being about rings was literally invented for Lebron James.

So I guess because Iggy won FMVP and a ring in '15 over Lebron that must have meant Iggy was the more impactful player then. My bad.

Stop being caddy dude. The guy has 2xs the amount of championships.

CHAMPIONSHIPS GODDAMN IT. Best of the best.

It's not some fluke performance in 2 finals games on a team with guys much better than he was. It's a career of utter dominance over anything hes faced and top 50 NBA players. Idk what the hell you were just trying to argue with that Iggy reference.

[Jazztop]

If Durant wins five rings and Lebron finishes with three, Lebron will still be considered the better player unless KD unlocks some much higher level of play that he hasn't shown to date. Given he's already 30 with a tonne of miles in his rear view, I doubt that happens. Lebron was just MUCH better for a lot longer. Even last year in the Finals he was still better than Durant. It isn't just about rings.

How much “higher” do you want him to go? He’s a career 27ppg scorer with a fantastic TS%, an MVP and reigning 2 time champion/2 time FMVP? I’m no KD fan because I just don’t like aspects of his personality and his choice to join the warriors but this narrative that LeBron is worlds above him is insane....how many Finals appearances would LeBron have if he played in KD’s conference?

[Nazrmohamed]

Lebron is 34 and stuck going nowhere with the Lakers. The goat debate is over. As far as whether the competition was tougher are you kidding me? He literally created his own superteam the heat were far and away the best team in the league when he was on the roster and he still managed to somehow lose Mavericks and Spurs who were vastly inferior. He then goes back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love then wins one championship in three years.

He is a great player but Jordan would have taken that Heat team and won four championships. Why? Because that is what GOATS do

No way in hell Jordan leads the Heat to a win over the Spurs the year the Heat lost to them. LeBron was fantastic that series. The only player on the heat who showed up.

The only series Jordan wins that LeBron lost was the Mavs series. And I'd argue that Jordan doesn't lead the Cavs over the Warriors in 2016.

You had to be there man. And hey. IDK what he does with Kevin Love and Kyrie against the Warriors, but I know what he would've done with the Bulls and that's dominate

[jimross]

Lebron is 34 and stuck going nowhere with the Lakers. The goat debate is over. As far as whether the competition was tougher are you kidding me? He literally created his own superteam the heat were far and away the best team in the league when he was on the roster and he still managed to somehow lose Mavericks and Spurs who were vastly inferior. He then goes back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love then wins one championship in three years.

He is a great player but Jordan would have taken that Heat team and won four championships. Why? Because that is what GOATS do

No way in hell Jordan leads the Heat to a win over the Spurs the year the Heat lost to them. LeBron was fantastic that series. The only player on the heat who showed up.

The only series Jordan wins that LeBron lost was the Mavs series. And I'd argue that Jordan doesn't lead the Cavs over the Warriors in 2016.

You had to be there man. And hey. IDK what he does with Kevin Love and Kyrie against the Warriors, but I know what he would've done with the Bulls and that's dominate

The same Bulls team that went to the EFC game 7 without him? Why does barely anybody talk about this. Those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked.

[freethedevil]

yes we can go into SRS. i'm sure you'll realize the SRS for his comp is mostly top 30-50 all time. strength of schedule is problematic. Ortg and Drtg is helpful too. yet simplistically winning is what matters.

Again, all of that is relative to era. Managing a higher point differential can mean two things... your opponent was weaker than the corresponding teams of other eras OOOOR your team was better.

A 60 win team with an all time high srs isn't necessarily better than a 55 win team with a considerably worse srs in 2015. Citing how well a team was relative to their era as proof that a player faced tougher competition is stupid. The post you quoted was talking about competition across eras, not whether a team was better relative to their era than another team.

how would you determine better if relative to era info like SRS and Dtrg/Ortg isn't your basis?

Talent pool, tactical development, ect. It's a logical assumption that the average player is better now. You can argue we should judge players realtive to era, but then you can't argue for jordan vs russel. Not with fmvp's or rings.

[freethedevil]

Its always about the rings. It not being about rings was literally invented for Lebron James.

So I guess because Iggy won FMVP and a ring in '15 over Lebron that must have meant Iggy was the more impactful player then. My bad.

Stop being caddy dude. The guy has 2xs the amount of championships.

CHAMPIONSHIPS GODDAMN IT. Best of the best.

It's not some fluke performance in 2 finals games on a team with guys much better than he was. It's a career of utter dominance over anything hes faced and top 50 NBA players. Idk what the hell you were just trying to argue with that Iggy reference.

russel literally has 2x as many championships as jordan. You cannot argue for jordan as the goat by courtesy of winning because multiple players have won more. Only argument for jordan is induvidual performance, and ofc, that's hard to do vs lebron whose cavs outscored a 66 win with role players when he was on the court in one of his 7 great final performances(jordan's only been to 6.)

[spikeslovechild]

Lebron is 34 and stuck going nowhere with the Lakers. The goat debate is over. As far as whether the competition was tougher are you kidding me? He literally created his own superteam the heat were far and away the best team in the league when he was on the roster and he still managed to somehow lose Mavericks and Spurs who were vastly inferior. He then goes back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love then wins one championship in three years.

He is a great player but Jordan would have taken that Heat team and won four championships. Why? Because that is what GOATS do

No way in hell Jordan leads the Heat to a win over the Spurs the year the Heat lost to them. LeBron was fantastic that series. The only player on the heat who showed up.

The only series Jordan wins that LeBron lost was the Mavs series. And I'd argue that Jordan doesn't lead the Cavs over the Warriors in 2016.

He was efficient (other then the turnovers) but he hardly took over that series hell he barely averaged 18 shots in the series. He only had one game where he scored more then 30 points. To me that is sort of one of the main differences between MJ and Lebron if he noticed his teammates didn't have it that night he'd find that extra gear and take over the series.

I remember it may have been his first year in the league he was matched up against the Celtics Bird, Walton, Parrish and McHale were still around I think they got bounced in the first. Jordan scored 60 and 50 in that 3 game series. That is having a fantastic series despite your team losing.

And if you don't think Jordan was capable of dropping 40-50 and taking over a series then you didn't watch him.

[thelead]

Yes. /thread

[JordansBulls]

So I guess because Iggy won FMVP and a ring in '15 over Lebron that must have meant Iggy was the more impactful player then. My bad.

Stop being caddy dude. The guy has 2xs the amount of championships.

CHAMPIONSHIPS GODDAMN IT. Best of the best.

It's not some fluke performance in 2 finals games on a team with guys much better than he was. It's a career of utter dominance over anything hes faced and top 50 NBA players. Idk what the hell you were just trying to argue with that Iggy reference.

russel literally has 2x as many championships as jordan. You cannot argue for jordan as the goat by courtesy of winning because multiple players have won more. Only argument for jordan is induvidual performance, and ofc, that's hard to do vs lebron whose cavs outscored a 66 win with role players when he was on the court in one of his 7 great final performances(jordan's only been to 6.)

Again Russell won 8 titles having to win only 2 series each year. 3 of the titles he won 3 series. Which meant he won 25 series for 11 titles. From the 1984 forward you had to win 4 series for a title each year. Also people forget Russell came into the league playing with the league MVP winner in Cousy and the ROY of the Heinsohn.

He also went 7 games vs a team .500 and won game 7 by 1 point.

[James40]

You can’t compare eras, different rules for a different time.

If Jordan had Wade, he wouldn’t have lost to Dirk, but he likely also wouldn’t have beaten GS. Draymond missed a game though because of flagrant fouls, this wasn’t an issue when Jordan played. If it was, the Pistons would have forfeited the playoffs.

See, can’t compare eras.

[GYK]

Again, all of that is relative to era. Managing a higher point differential can mean two things... your opponent was weaker than the corresponding teams of other eras OOOOR your team was better.

A 60 win team with an all time high srs isn't necessarily better than a 55 win team with a considerably worse srs in 2015. Citing how well a team was relative to their era as proof that a player faced tougher competition is stupid. The post you quoted was talking about competition across eras, not whether a team was better relative to their era than another team.

how would you determine better if relative to era info like SRS and Dtrg/Ortg isn't your basis?

Talent pool, tactical development, ect. It's a logical assumption that the average player is better now. You can argue we should judge players realtive to era, but then you can't argue for jordan vs russel. Not with fmvp's or rings.

so opinion. ok just say opinion.

[wowski]

No way in hell Jordan leads the Heat to a win over the Spurs the year the Heat lost to them. LeBron was fantastic that series. The only player on the heat who showed up.

The only series Jordan wins that LeBron lost was the Mavs series. And I'd argue that Jordan doesn't lead the Cavs over the Warriors in 2016.

You had to be there man. And hey. IDK what he does with Kevin Love and Kyrie against the Warriors, but I know what he would've done with the Bulls and that's dominate

The same Bulls team that went to the EFC game 7 without him? Why does barely anybody talk about this. Those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked.

Because it never happened.

[Repeat 3-peat]

No way in hell Jordan leads the Heat to a win over the Spurs the year the Heat lost to them. LeBron was fantastic that series. The only player on the heat who showed up.

The only series Jordan wins that LeBron lost was the Mavs series. And I'd argue that Jordan doesn't lead the Cavs over the Warriors in 2016.

You had to be there man. And hey. IDK what he does with Kevin Love and Kyrie against the Warriors, but I know what he would've done with the Bulls and that's dominate

The same Bulls team that went to the EFC game 7 without him? Why does barely anybody talk about this. Those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked.

They weren't "stacked" they had a legit system in place. That will win you games. LeBron has never bought into a system besides his own which is pound the ball then drive and kick, reason why his teams struggle when he's not playing. The Bulls also added Kerr, Kukoc, Longley when he retired. But the following year the Bulls were under .500 at All Star break. Maybe they overachieved a bit?

Also they didn't make it to the ECF. They lost to the 2nd round to the Knicks.

Could you imagine if Jordan had another teammate like Kyrie(or Wade) who could create his own shot late in games? My goodness.

[76ciology]

No. Just like in everything. Competition evolves.

[euroleague]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Warriors in 15 weren't special. Phoenix would've destroyed them - Barkley in '93 playoffs was easily better than Curry in '15 playoffs.


I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, Blazers '92, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

[HEAT33]

Lebron fans like bringing up Russell and his rings.
But like to forget the fact that he only played one side of the game great, he was not a offensive player. Was not even the best player in his time, but he just knew how to win.

MJ was great of both ends of the floor, put up the numbers, was the best player in the NBA and once he had his first All-Star he kept on winning.

It’s not even a debate that MJ is better than Lebron. Ofcourse always a very small number thinks that, it MJ had a much bigger impact on the game then Lebron.

MJ would avg 40 8 8 in this era

[freethedevil]

how would you determine better if relative to era info like SRS and Dtrg/Ortg isn't your basis?

Talent pool, tactical development, ect. It's a logical assumption that the average player is better now. You can argue we should judge players realtive to era, but then you can't argue for jordan vs russel. Not with fmvp's or rings.

so opinion. ok just say opinion.

Everything here is an opinion. Difference is i have a reason, and you have circular logic.