NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (continued)

[Dirk]

[The-Power]

Just for discussion's sake, because a lot has been said about the scoring prowess of Embiid, here are Giannis' and Embiid's numbers against teams with a winning record so far this season.

Embiid: 30.2/10.9/6.7 on 48fg%
Giannis: 35.3/11.4/4.5 on 61fg%

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

[KGtabake]

Just for discussion's sake, because a lot has been said about the scoring prowess of Embiid, here are Giannis' and Embiid's numbers against teams with a winning record so far this season.

Embiid: 30.2/10.9/6.7 on 48fg%
Giannis: 35.3/11.4/4.5 on 61fg%

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

Why's that? FG% is used by basketball reference, by NBA and by everybody.

Either way, TS this season:
Giannis 65,5%
Embiid 64,5%

Turnovers:
Giannis 96
Embiid 88

What's your point and why should he mention turnovers when he's talking about scoring and shooting percentages.

[The-Power]

Just for discussion's sake, because a lot has been said about the scoring prowess of Embiid, here are Giannis' and Embiid's numbers against teams with a winning record so far this season.

Embiid: 30.2/10.9/6.7 on 48fg%
Giannis: 35.3/11.4/4.5 on 61fg%

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

Why's that? FG% is used by basketball reference, by NBA and by everybody.

Either way, TS this season:
Giannis 65,5%
Embiid 64,5%

Turnovers:
Giannis 96
Embiid 88

What's your point and why should he mention turnovers when he's talking about scoring and shooting percentages.

Because FG% is an antiquated measure. Just because it's still used doesn't mean that it should. Presumably the poster used it to convey a sense that Giannis has been more efficient and I'm simply pointing out that citing FG% is not the way to do it. That's because 3s and FTs do exist.

Re: TOs. The poster not only cited scoring numbers but also assists. And considering that turnovers tend to be a function of scoring and playmaking, it makes sense to include them for a fuller picture.

I'm not even here to refute the overarching point. I have no horse in this race. I'm merely interested in fairness and accuracy when it comes to comparing players. The debate is toxic enough as it is, no need to fuel the fire by omissions or selective presentation (whether deliberate or accidental).

[KGtabake]

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

Why's that? FG% is used by basketball reference, by NBA and by everybody.

Either way, TS this season:
Giannis 65,5%
Embiid 64,5%

Turnovers:
Giannis 96
Embiid 88

What's your point and why should he mention turnovers when he's talking about scoring and shooting percentages.

Because FG% is an antiquated measure. Just because it's still used doesn't mean that it should. Presumably the poster used it to convey a sense that Giannis has been more efficient and I'm simply pointing out that citing FG% is not the way to do it. That's because 3s and FTs do exist.

Re: TOs. The poster not only cited scoring numbers but also assists. And considering that turnovers tend to be a function of scoring and playmaking, it makes sense to include them for a fuller picture.

I'm not even here to refute the overarching point. I have no horse in this race. I'm merely interested in fairness and accuracy when it comes to comparing players. The debate is toxic enough as it is, no need to fuel the fire by omissions or selective presentation (whether deliberate or accidental).

Got it, thanks for the clarification.
Well he shouldn't worry then because the MVP will be Jokic

[tsamo]

Just for discussion's sake, because a lot has been said about the scoring prowess of Embiid, here are Giannis' and Embiid's numbers against teams with a winning record so far this season.

Embiid: 30.2/10.9/6.7 on 48fg%
Giannis: 35.3/11.4/4.5 on 61fg%

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

I disagree but to each his own.
Against teams with a winning record these are their statlines:

Embiid: 30.2/10.9/6.7 on 60.5 TS% with 1.8 blocks and 1 steal with 4.1 turnovers
Giannis: 35.3/11.4/4.5 on 65 TS% with 1 block and 1.6 steals with 4.4 turnovers

[CharityStripe34]

How goes the 24/7 fan(atic) thread? Anyone make a fresh pot of coffee?

[maxpower8888]

Read on Twitter

?t=KiZu-yjONo8SeBBSlMzRag&s=19

When comparing those vs their season averages:

Luka : +4.1 PPG +2.4 APG -1.4 RPG +3.2 TS%
ShaiI : -0.1 PPG -0.3 APG -0.2 RPG -0.5 TS%
Embiid : -5.4 PPG +1.0 APG -1.0 RPG -1.5 TS%
Jokic : -0.1 PPG -0.9 APG +0.2 RPG -0.4 TS%
Giannis: -4.4 PPG -0.5 APG +3.2 RPG -14.5 TS%

Hmm, Luka is starting to look really good.

[The-Power]

Hmm, Luka is starting to look really good.

Individual production has never been Luka's problem in MVP debates. It's the impact and lift that comes with these numbers, especially during the RS, that may be questioned compared to other MVP candidates.

[eyeatoma]

Watch on YouTube

People are taking note.

[bigboi]

Just for discussion's sake, because a lot has been said about the scoring prowess of Embiid, here are Giannis' and Embiid's numbers against teams with a winning record so far this season.

Embiid: 30.2/10.9/6.7 on 48fg%
Giannis: 35.3/11.4/4.5 on 61fg%

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

Everyone uses field goal percentage. It matters a lot. Just blindly using TS makes 0 sense

[maxpower8888]

Just for discussion's sake, because a lot has been said about the scoring prowess of Embiid, here are Giannis' and Embiid's numbers against teams with a winning record so far this season.

Embiid: 30.2/10.9/6.7 on 48fg%
Giannis: 35.3/11.4/4.5 on 61fg%

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

Everyone uses field goal percentage. It matters a lot. Just blindly using TS makes 0 sense

It's not really blindly following a stat, TS% is just a modified version of FG% that takes into account 2s, 3s and FTs. A person shooting 50% on mostly 2's will have a lower PPG than a person shooting 50% on mostly 3's even though they have the exact same FG%. TS% represents this.

[bigboi]

I think Jokic gave up on RS, he has no interest in being part of the MVP discussion, he's in cruise mode till the PO...

Wasn't meant to be funny but OK...

It’s hilarious because I’ve seen so many narratives about Jokic thrown in the thread. Beginning of season: “Jokic is winning easily, no one can touch him, he’s on a Lebron/MJ run”

Then when he starts to struggle “Jokic’s mental isn’t right because of his political opinion”

To now “Jokic purposely doesn’t want to win the MVP”

It’s hilarious because narrative after narrative that no other player gets. What will be the excuse when Jokic doesn’t win a championship? “He wanted to give other players a chance, he doesn’t really care about championships”?

[bigboi]

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

Everyone uses field goal percentage. It matters a lot. Just blindly using TS makes 0 sense

It's not really blindly following a stat, TS% is just a modified version of FG% that takes into account 2s, 3s and FTs. A person shooting 50% on mostly 2's will have a lower PPG than a person shooting 50% on mostly 3's even though they have the exact same FG%. TS% represents this.

It is blindly following stats. Prime Harden beats Shaq in TS handily. Shaq beats Harden in FG% handily. Who is a better scorer? I’ll take Shaq 10/10 over Harden as a scorer. TS is just a tool. Without context with other stats, it’s useless. Just like per 36 was once hot on this board, just like per 100 was hot on this board as well…

[Mavrelous]

Wasn't meant to be funny but OK...

It’s hilarious because I’ve seen so many narratives about Jokic thrown in the thread. Beginning of season: “Jokic is winning easily, no one can touch him, he’s on a Lebron/MJ run”

Then when he starts to struggle “Jokic’s mental isn’t right because of his political opinion”

To now “Jokic purposely doesn’t want to win the MVP”

It’s hilarious because narrative after narrative that no other player gets. What will be the excuse when Jokic doesn’t win a championship? “He wanted to give other players a chance, he doesn’t really care about championships”?

I just watched him play my Mavs, the result was known before the game, and most of us wanted Luka not to play.
Luka played and got his numbers, Jokic couldn't care less for his numbers and finished with triple single, anyone watching knows he could've gotten whatever he wanted.
1st month of the season, Jokic destroyed OKC and Dallas on consecutive games, a domination I haven't seen from any player this year, he was just casually tearing up teams, he took a massive step back, and I doubt it's due to lack of ability, just lack of interest...

[_NoMas]

People should be banned from using FG% in 2023. Use TS% instead, and including turnovers wouldn't hurt either.

Everyone uses field goal percentage. It matters a lot. Just blindly using TS makes 0 sense

It's not really blindly following a stat, TS% is just a modified version of FG% that takes into account 2s, 3s and FTs. A person shooting 50% on mostly 2's will have a lower PPG than a person shooting 50% on mostly 3's even though they have the exact same FG%. TS% represents this.

There’s value in all stats. But TS% is a far better statistic for comparing the relative scoring efficiency of players over just FG%. Not sure how that’s even up for debate

[maxpower8888]

Everyone uses field goal percentage. It matters a lot. Just blindly using TS makes 0 sense

It's not really blindly following a stat, TS% is just a modified version of FG% that takes into account 2s, 3s and FTs. A person shooting 50% on mostly 2's will have a lower PPG than a person shooting 50% on mostly 3's even though they have the exact same FG%. TS% represents this.

It is blindly following stats. Prime Harden beats Shaq in TS handily. Shaq beats Harden in FG% handily. Who is a better scorer? I’ll take Shaq 10/10 over Harden as a scorer. TS is just a tool. Without context with other stats, it’s useless. Just like per 36 was once hot on this board, just like per 100 was hot on this board as well…

TS% takes into account Shaq's poor FT shooting, FG% doesn't. Just because you don't understand how a stat works doesn't mean people who do are blindly following it. Harden is a more efficient scorer than Shaq when taking into account points scored off of 3's and FTs.

[LordCovington33]

Everyone uses field goal percentage. It matters a lot. Just blindly using TS makes 0 sense

It's not really blindly following a stat, TS% is just a modified version of FG% that takes into account 2s, 3s and FTs. A person shooting 50% on mostly 2's will have a lower PPG than a person shooting 50% on mostly 3's even though they have the exact same FG%. TS% represents this.

There’s value in all stats. But TS% is a far better statistic for comparing the relative scoring efficiency of players over just FG%. Not sure how that’s even up for debate

Good to use both, since players like Embiid who shoot 90% from the line at high frequency does not really show how much efficient they with a live ball. Both things have pros and cons, and can be used together and not as one or the other.

Added: Just agreeing that there’s value in both stats.

[bigboi]

Everyone uses field goal percentage. It matters a lot. Just blindly using TS makes 0 sense

It's not really blindly following a stat, TS% is just a modified version of FG% that takes into account 2s, 3s and FTs. A person shooting 50% on mostly 2's will have a lower PPG than a person shooting 50% on mostly 3's even though they have the exact same FG%. TS% represents this.

There’s value in all stats. But TS% is a far better statistic for comparing the relative scoring efficiency of players over just FG%. Not sure how that’s even up for debate

It’s a stat that gets taken into consideration but no, it isn’t the end all be all. I look at FG% as well. Again I would never take Harden over Shaq as a scorer. Nor do I think Westbrook nor D Rose were ever on Kobe’s level as a scorer despite TS saying otherwise

[bigboi]

It's not really blindly following a stat, TS% is just a modified version of FG% that takes into account 2s, 3s and FTs. A person shooting 50% on mostly 2's will have a lower PPG than a person shooting 50% on mostly 3's even though they have the exact same FG%. TS% represents this.

There’s value in all stats. But TS% is a far better statistic for comparing the relative scoring efficiency of players over just FG%. Not sure how that’s even up for debate

Good to use both, since players like Embiid who shoot 90% from the line at high frequency does not really show how much efficient they with a live ball. Both things have pros and cons, and can be used together and not as one or the other.

Exactly lol. No one here can say with a straight face say that Harden was a more dominant scorer than Shaq but by TS metrics Harden was an even dominant scorer than Jordan. You’d get laughed out any room saying this in real life