Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[MavsDirk41]

Horace Grant was more impactful on the Bulls because he was drafted by the Bulls, grew as a player playing alongside Jordan and Pippen, and played there for years. They had built some continuity together as a trio. But he was not a better all around player than Kevin Love or Chris Bosh lol.

Chris Bosh top 5 peak years
24/11
23/11
23/10
23/9
22/9

11x all star, all nba team 2 in 06/07, and top 7 in mvp voting that same year

Kevin Love top 5 peak years
26/13
26/13
20/15
18/14
18/11

5x all star, 2x all nba team 2, top 6 in mvp voting in 11/12

Horace Grant top 5 peak years
15/11
14/10
13/10
13/10
13/9

1x all star, 4x all defense team 2

Horace Grant was a stud but Love and Bosh peaked higher.

Dude... my exact phrasing which you responded to here was that Grant was more impactful than Bosh and Love were those 4 years that the Heat and Cavs made the finals(in the role of a #3). I didn't say anything about Grant peaking higher or being a better all around player than both. You know that is what I was talking about and what you responded to. So all this goalpost moving you are now doing about peak and all around game is not getting you anywhere. It's just showing the lengths you will go to rather than address what I actually said and maybe even have to admit you were wrong about something in the way you responded to me. That's up to you though. I'm not wasting anymore time addressing this.

And i said Grant was more impactful becuase he was drafted and developed by the Bulls alongside Jordan and Pippen. That trio played together much longer than the trios of Wade/James/Bosh and Love/James/Irving. You dont think years playing together makes a difference? Plus, Bosh and Love had to adapt their game playing with James/Wade and James/Irving. Grant developed with Jordan and Pippen. No goalpost moving its called facts….you didnt think about this?

[michaelm]

Better question: why are Lebron and KD the only two stars in the league who can’t go one year without playing with another prime all-star?

There is no problem with him Cleveland the first time, it’s the fact that he played with 4 different teams between 2009-2019 that most people have a problem with.

Maybe because they are the biggest stars of their generation with the most pressure to win multiple rings(leaving out Steph who basically won a ring in his first year as a real star)? 1 mvp level player+ 1 other all star is basically what it takes to contend in the nba(at a minimum). So if your goal as an nba player is to win rings you better have at least 1 all star next to you and that doesn't take into account things like defense and bench. Also, for all the talk of him teaming up with AD, how many playoffs was AD actually healthy for? On top of age catching up with LeBron and him being injured for both the 22&23 playoffs. One year is all they really got as a healthy duo.

The only problem I have with the AD move is that he was mid contract and a Klutch client.

I don’t have a problem with any of LeBron’s moves other than that. Unless he influenced matters by pushing the Cavs to go win now while he was still a teenager he wasn’t in a position to lead a single team dynasty there, and once he went win now with established players in 2010 there wasn’t really any turning back from the win now path either. But he didn’t join up with either Wade or AD with the assumption they would be limited by injury, although there probably should have been some expectation in AD’s case. Wade’s injury did rightly garner LeBron more credit, but that is just the way it worked out. If you team up with established elite players with miles on the clock injury is not exactly unlikely anyway,

KD having left GSW to prove he can do it as the lead guy has proceeded to prove that he can’t, although everything post GSW has also been post a ruptured Achilles’ tendon. While I am a major fan I tend to think KD can’t do it on his own to the extent that LeBron can and has anyway, he needs a playmaker, and before the Achilles’ tear dual iso with Westbrook didn’t ever clear the final or penultimate hurdle either.

I strongly resist however what seems to be an attempted alternative narrative from some, that Jordan’s success counts less because of luck, good team-mates, good coaching, and a good GM. Sure he had those things, but they were not independent of him. Jackson and Krause made their reputations together with MJ, and Phil seems to have been successful with a similar game plan with a player as close to MJ as is possible in Kobe, although I didn’t follow those Laker years as closely. MJ let Phil coach, including accepting the triangle offense which took the ball out of his hands to an extent, and let Jerry Krause construct the roster, sometimes against his own preferences, both of which are a positive rather than a negative imo. Sure Pippen was integral to the success of the Jordan Bulls and hence to the success of Jordan himself, and they wouldn’t have been able to draft him without him being available and the Bulls having the pick which allowed them to draft him, but whether they would have drafted him in other circumstances and whether LeBron in particular would have waited for him to become peak Pippen, and whether he would have had the role which he grew into next to LeBron are different questions.


I will never dispute LeBron can do more individually than any other player, including my actual favourite players in Steph Curry and Tim Duncan, and probably even Jordan.

[michaelm]

Double.

[Cavsfansince84]

And i said Grant was more impactful becuase he was drafted and developed by the Bulls alongside Jordan and Pippen. That trio played together much longer than the trios of Wade/James/Bosh and Love/James/Irving. You dont think years playing together makes a difference? Plus, Bosh and Love had to adapt their game playing with James/Wade and James/Irving. Grant developed with Jordan and Pippen. No goalpost moving its called facts….you didnt think about this?

It doesn't matter why you think Grant was more impactful. You acted like I was crazy for saying what I did and now you have to backtrack by admitting I was right and then acting like it means less because Grant was drafted by the Bulls. So yes, that's goalpost moving because you are absolutely incapable of ever admitting you are wrong about something on here. Anyhow, that's enough. This is ridiculous.

[michaelm]

And i said Grant was more impactful becuase he was drafted and developed by the Bulls alongside Jordan and Pippen. That trio played together much longer than the trios of Wade/James/Bosh and Love/James/Irving. You dont think years playing together makes a difference? Plus, Bosh and Love had to adapt their game playing with James/Wade and James/Irving. Grant developed with Jordan and Pippen. No goalpost moving its called facts….you didnt think about this?

It doesn't matter why you think Grant was more impactful. You acted like I was crazy for saying what I did and now you have to backtrack by admitting I was right and then acting like it means less because Grant was drafted by the Bulls. So yes, that's goalpost moving because you are absolutely incapable of ever admitting you are wrong about something on here. Anyhow, that's enough. This is ridiculous.

Whether or not you intended the implication, which I will take your word you didn’t, it is not hard to see lauding of MJ’s team-mates and diminishment of LeBron’s as part of a general MJ had more help/LeBron needed more help narrative run by LeBron fans, including LeBron himself in regard to the latter.

[Cavsfansince84]

Whether or not you intended the implication, which I will take your word you didn’t, it is not hard to see lauding of MJ’s team-mates and diminishment of LeBron’s as part of a general MJ had more help/LeBron needed more help narrative run by LeBron fans, including LeBron himself in regard to the latter.

I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish with this post. It's not hard to scroll up, see the post I replied to and what I wrote and then what Mavs replied with. It's like we need to be able to just be honest and debate what is in front of us rather than trying to put everything constantly within some larger narrative war that you see happening. Personally I'm not even caught up in that. I don't have LeBron as the goat, I just have him along with a few others in a goat tier. So I'm not concerned with trying to push any of that when I post and its silly to constantly lump posters in with others when replying to them. It's serves no purpose. I feel like you have a tendency to bring up a lot of extraneous stuff that doesn't really add any clarity to what you are saying or replying to. My goal is to just honestly discuss things. If we're not doing that then there's no point to any of it.

[michaelm]

Whether or not you intended the implication, which I will take your word you didn’t, it is not hard to see lauding of MJ’s team-mates and diminishment of LeBron’s as part of a general MJ had more help/LeBron needed more help narrative run by LeBron fans, including LeBron himself in regard to the latter.

I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish with this post. It's not hard to scroll up, see the post I replied to and what I wrote and then what Mavs replied with. It's like we need to be able to just be honest and debate what is in front of us rather than trying to put everything constantly within some larger narrative war that you see happening. Personally I'm not even caught up in that. I don't have LeBron as the goat, I just have him along with a few others in a goat tier. So I'm not concerned with trying to push any of that when I post and its silly to constantly lump posters in with others when replying to them. It's serves no purpose. I feel like you have a tendency to bring up a lot of extraneous stuff that doesn't really add any clarity to what you are saying or replying to. My goal is to just honestly discuss things. If we're not doing that then there's no point to any of it.

Perhaps so, and I did say I took your word.

But if Horace Grant was better next to Jordan than Love was next to LeBron, which I probably wouldn’t dispute, how they got there is relevant particularly to this thread.

[MavsDirk41]

And i said Grant was more impactful becuase he was drafted and developed by the Bulls alongside Jordan and Pippen. That trio played together much longer than the trios of Wade/James/Bosh and Love/James/Irving. You dont think years playing together makes a difference? Plus, Bosh and Love had to adapt their game playing with James/Wade and James/Irving. Grant developed with Jordan and Pippen. No goalpost moving its called facts….you didnt think about this?

It doesn't matter why you think Grant was more impactful. You acted like I was crazy for saying what I did and now you have to backtrack by admitting I was right and then acting like it means less because Grant was drafted by the Bulls. So yes, that's goalpost moving because you are absolutely incapable of ever admitting you are wrong about something on here. Anyhow, that's enough. This is ridiculous.

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

[DimesandKnicks]

And i said Grant was more impactful becuase he was drafted and developed by the Bulls alongside Jordan and Pippen. That trio played together much longer than the trios of Wade/James/Bosh and Love/James/Irving. You dont think years playing together makes a difference? Plus, Bosh and Love had to adapt their game playing with James/Wade and James/Irving. Grant developed with Jordan and Pippen. No goalpost moving its called facts….you didnt think about this?

It doesn't matter why you think Grant was more impactful. You acted like I was crazy for saying what I did and now you have to backtrack by admitting I was right and then acting like it means less because Grant was drafted by the Bulls. So yes, that's goalpost moving because you are absolutely incapable of ever admitting you are wrong about something on here. Anyhow, that's enough. This is ridiculous.

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

[michaelm]

It doesn't matter why you think Grant was more impactful. You acted like I was crazy for saying what I did and now you have to backtrack by admitting I was right and then acting like it means less because Grant was drafted by the Bulls. So yes, that's goalpost moving because you are absolutely incapable of ever admitting you are wrong about something on here. Anyhow, that's enough. This is ridiculous.

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

And that team still had Michael Jordan.

[MavsDirk41]

It doesn't matter why you think Grant was more impactful. You acted like I was crazy for saying what I did and now you have to backtrack by admitting I was right and then acting like it means less because Grant was drafted by the Bulls. So yes, that's goalpost moving because you are absolutely incapable of ever admitting you are wrong about something on here. Anyhow, that's enough. This is ridiculous.

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

Not disputing what you are saying but i would add that Jordan deserves some credit for helping Grant and Pippen develop into the players they became. The coaching staff and obviously the hard work put in by the players themselves accomplished this. But im sure Jordan pushing them in practice contributed to their overall growth. And it took a few years for them, especially Pippen, to develop into a star player.

In regards to Rodman, yea, it was a great move by Krause, but again, i dont know of any team at that time in which he would have had that kind of succes. Pop and Duncan couldnt wait for him to leave the organization. Jordan, along with Pippen and the coaching staff, deserve a lot of praise for maximizing his talent during that time in his life in his mid-30s.

[DimesandKnicks]

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

And that team still had Michael Jordan.

And Scottie, Pippen, and Toni Kukoc and Phil Jackson and more

[MavsDirk41]

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

And that team still had Michael Jordan.

And Scottie, Pippen, and Toni Kukoc and Phil Jackson and more

True…and Miami had Wade, Battier, Mike Miller and more. Cleveland had Kyrie Irving, JR Smith, Anderson Varajeo and more. Neither Jordan or James had success without help.

[Iwasawitness]

And that team still had Michael Jordan.

And Scottie, Pippen, and Toni Kukoc and Phil Jackson and more

True…and Miami had Wade, Battier, Mike Miller and more. Cleveland had Kyrie Irving, JR Smith, Anderson Varajeo and more. Neither Jordan or James had success without help.

Varejao?

[DimesandKnicks]

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

He gets a pass for going back home and winning his first title against a team with the greatest record of all time.

But you’d prefer him to stay in Miami, why? Can yall even communicate why it’s so important that he stays with teams he signed with after becoming a free agent?

Because they are much better run organization. The argument Lebron fans have been peddling for years is that first stint Cavs were poorly run. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Why leave them to go back to the Cavs that is still run by Dan Gilbert? Don't give me the crap about bringing a title to Cleveland. If he loved Cleveland so much, he wouldn't have left the second time.

Great player, but a complete opportunist.

By what metric? Is that really the best you can do? What did they prove at that point that made them a better organization. And is going to play for an inferior organization not adversity or is it only adversity when...idk. Vibes?

The Heat lucked up on the Kobe Shaq drama. Shaq wanted to play with Wade in Miami. The heat were essentially able to pull off the shaq trade because they were bad. The drafted a HOF because they were bad enough to and packaged LO with their earlier draft pick Butler which they were able to draft becuase they were bad.

They had nothing to do with the big Three teaming up. In fact, they made some dumb as moves. They trade Cook and their 18th pick (who became Bledsoe, and they could have had him instead of Norris Cole who was drafted in the same draft as Isaiah Thomas) to free space only to spend it on Haslem, Joel Anthony and Big Z.

They flubbed on multiple draft picks. Beasley over Westbrook and Love, picked Dexter Pittman right before Whiteside was drafted. Some french guy over Draymond Green, Jae Crowder, Wil Barton or Khris Middleton.

They traded their 28th pick that they could have used to draft Jimmy Butler.

Pre big three, Writight over Tony Allen, Jameer Nelson and Kevin Martin. Picked Wayne Simeon right before David Lee and could have drafted Ellis, Lou Will Gortat and others. Traded the pick that could have been Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague for Ricky Davis.

When Lebron opted to play for the Cav's, they had no young players who could have developed in to role players, all starts are be used as trade chips, no draft pics, no cap and Pat Riley's pitch to him was "Hey, it's gonna be rough, but dynasties aren't built in a few years". No plan, hell of an organization. And we all know Riely ran the Heat with an iron thumb while the Cav's gave Lebron an opportunity to be the Co-GM.

As far as the "Don't give me that crap about bringing a title to Cleveland", this is just the disconnect. This isn't 2k, these are players with feeling emotions. YOu have to suspend belief and live in lala land to undermined his connection to Akron and by extension Cleveland.

He still had a home in AKron, mom close friends and family still lived in Akron. Maverick Cart and Rich Paul, who really didn't become prominent until Lebron' second Cav's stint, all still stayed in Akron. Lebron's wife was on record as wanting to raise their kids, as they were coming of age, in Akron around a community of friends and family - their villiage.

He did so much philanthropic work to uplift the community he worked on, a long list of things that I previously posted.

And while Lebron's move to the heat was the closets thing to his "villain arc" his return to Cleveland was his "hero arc" and the most important move to supplanting his legacy, on and off the court. He bought the Cav's their first championship and beat the 73-8 Warriors.

I don't think that even a healthy Wade would have stopped Lebron from jumping ship. What ya'll are demanding Lebron did was to make a dumb ass decision.

[DimesandKnicks]

And Scottie, Pippen, and Toni Kukoc and Phil Jackson and more

True…and Miami had Wade, Battier, Mike Miller and more. Cleveland had Kyrie Irving, JR Smith, Anderson Varajeo and more. Neither Jordan or James had success without help.

Varejao?

Miller was so important they waived him IIRC. I named HOF and sixth man. He named one future HOF and role players . The difference, that we should all be able to admit, was Jordan's help was drafted or signed. Pippen and Grant were signed two or three years after Jordan was drafted. Pip and Grant were drafted in the same year and when Grant left they signed one of the best defenders and the best rebounder in the league and drafted a sixth man in at the 29th pick.

The Bull's traded up to get Pippen the Cav's drafted Luke Jackson when Iguodala was picked right before him

[DimesandKnicks]

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

Not disputing what you are saying but i would add that Jordan deserves some credit for helping Grant and Pippen develop into the players they became. The coaching staff and obviously the hard work put in by the players themselves accomplished this. But im sure Jordan pushing them in practice contributed to their overall growth. And it took a few years for them, especially Pippen, to develop into a star player.

In regards to Rodman, yea, it was a great move by Krause, but again, i dont know of any team at that time in which he would have had that kind of succes. Pop and Duncan couldnt wait for him to leave the organization. Jordan, along with Pippen and the coaching staff, deserve a lot of praise for maximizing his talent during that time in his life in his mid-30s.

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

[dhsilv2]

It doesn't matter why you think Grant was more impactful. You acted like I was crazy for saying what I did and now you have to backtrack by admitting I was right and then acting like it means less because Grant was drafted by the Bulls. So yes, that's goalpost moving because you are absolutely incapable of ever admitting you are wrong about something on here. Anyhow, that's enough. This is ridiculous.

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

to be fair Grant left and his next team made the finals and then his next team won the title...it isn't like Grant stopped winning.

[dhsilv2]

True…and Miami had Wade, Battier, Mike Miller and more. Cleveland had Kyrie Irving, JR Smith, Anderson Varajeo and more. Neither Jordan or James had success without help.

Varejao?

Miller was so important they waived him IIRC. I named HOF and sixth man. He named one future HOF and role players . The difference, that we should all be able to admit, was Jordan's help was drafted or signed. Pippen and Grant were signed two or three years after Jordan was drafted. Pip and Grant were drafted in the same year and when Grant left they signed one of the best defenders and the best rebounder in the league and drafted a sixth man in at the 29th pick.

The Bull's traded up to get Pippen the Cav's drafted Luke Jackson when Iguodala was picked right before him

So is the message that just like as a kid it's your fault you picked the wrong parents if you want to be an athlete. If you're a pro athlete you'll be blamed for picking the wrong owner who drafts you?

[dhsilv2]

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

Not disputing what you are saying but i would add that Jordan deserves some credit for helping Grant and Pippen develop into the players they became. The coaching staff and obviously the hard work put in by the players themselves accomplished this. But im sure Jordan pushing them in practice contributed to their overall growth. And it took a few years for them, especially Pippen, to develop into a star player.

In regards to Rodman, yea, it was a great move by Krause, but again, i dont know of any team at that time in which he would have had that kind of succes. Pop and Duncan couldnt wait for him to leave the organization. Jordan, along with Pippen and the coaching staff, deserve a lot of praise for maximizing his talent during that time in his life in his mid-30s.

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

I'll never get this weird giving credit for Jordan...who was barely even older than Pippen and Grant for their success. Jordan by all accounts...even his if you listen closely, was a terrible teammate and treated people terribly. He wasn't building them up.

But the 9th pick Brad Sellars didn't get better thanks to MJ. Will Perdue an 11th pick likely played his best ball on the Spurs in his early 30's. Where was the MJ effect? Stacey King was the 6th pick and he never did anything. BJ Armstrong had a decent career but his best year was without MJ.

The bulls were hardly some team that was building new guys either over that run. And Pippen and Jordan seemingly tried to tank Toni and thankfully he was just too good for them. I'd still argue if anything they got less value from him than he was able to give.