Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[Repeat 3-peat]

I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, Blazers '12, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

Those Utah teams get completely disrespected.

Malone would be viewed as a top 10 player ever had he won a ring. Stockton also. Jeff Hornacek was one heck of a role player. Efficient scorer with shooting.

They had back to back 60+ win seasons in (96-97, 97-98) beating the likes of Shaq Lakers which had 4 all stars, Hakeem's Rockets with Barkley and Drexler, Spurs with Robinson and Duncan,


Yes, as you written in the bold. LeBron got annihilated and MJ never lost. Don't care for the Warriors excuse, he had 11 years to catch up to Jordan and didn't do it.

There is no comparison anymore.

A fact about the competition for Jordan in the finals. 5 of his 6 championships came against the leagues MVP or runner up MVP.

[Drygon]

Watch on YouTube

[Repeat 3-peat]

Watch on YouTube

@10:30...

[Karate Diop]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Warriors in 15 weren't special. Phoenix would've destroyed them - Barkley in '93 playoffs was easily better than Curry in '15 playoffs.


I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, Blazers '92, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

In all fairness though, Jordan was unable to will vastly inferior teams with no business being in the finals to the finals on his own. MJ never won a playoff series without Pippen... And it's one of the reasons he has fewer finals apperances despite playing in a watered down expansion era.

[trueballer7]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Warriors in 15 weren't special. Phoenix would've destroyed them - Barkley in '93 playoffs was easily better than Curry in '15 playoffs.


I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, Blazers '92, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

In all fairness though, Jordan was unable to will vastly inferior teams with no business being in the finals to the finals on his own. MJ never won a playoff series without Pippen... And it's one of the reasons he has fewer finals apperances despite playing in a watered down expansion era.

If not for Pippen contributing 10 ppg, Jordan would have never gotten past the Cavs in the late 80s. Mike merely averaged 45.2 ppg, when the next FIVE Bulls, combined for 45 ppg, carrying him over that hump.
And thats one of the reasons he has fewer finals appereances. That and being matched up year in year out with the eventual champs earlier.

[benhillboy]

Simply put, no. I’ve always discounted their Finals matchups and the depth of the SG position during their run but I’d never even thought of the expansion angle. I never separate Jordan accolades from Pippen’s. Not when the latter is running Point Forward with a wider defensive workload.

[soxfan2003]

Warriors in 15 weren't special. Phoenix would've destroyed them - Barkley in '93 playoffs was easily better than Curry in '15 playoffs.


I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, .Blazers '92, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

In all fairness though, Jordan was unable to will vastly inferior teams with no business being in the finals to the finals on his own. MJ never won a playoff series without Pippen... And it's one of the reasons he has fewer finals apperances despite playing in a watered down expansion era.

If not for Pippen contributing 10 ppg, Jordan would have never gotten past the Cavs in the late 80s. Mike merely averaged 45.2 ppg, when the next FIVE Bulls, combined for 45 ppg, carrying him over that hump.
And thats one of the reasons he has fewer finals appereances. That and being matched up year in year out with the eventual champs earlier.

Cleveland was a 42-40 regular season team that year and a 6 seed.
Chicago was 50-32 with HCA and was a third seed.

Chicago built around Jordan getting lions share of shots and team D.

Next year he did face higher seeded Cavs squad but Mark price injured in game 1 and that may have somewhat evened things out.

[Spanish_Laker]

Much weaker competition, every one knows that.

[RalphWiggum]

Michael Jordan freaking sucks I think it's time to say it

Sucks? Really?

You want to make the argument that there's a handful of players almost as good or maybe even a little better that's fair. To say he sucked is idiotic.

[RalphWiggum]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

Except if you look at his stats which were historically terrible.

He more than made up for it later but LeBron was god awful during that series.

[trueballer7]

In all fairness though, Jordan was unable to will vastly inferior teams with no business being in the finals to the finals on his own. MJ never won a playoff series without Pippen... And it's one of the reasons he has fewer finals apperances despite playing in a watered down expansion era.

If not for Pippen contributing 10 ppg, Jordan would have never gotten past the Cavs in the late 80s. Mike merely averaged 45.2 ppg, when the next FIVE Bulls, combined for 45 ppg, carrying him over that hump.
And thats one of the reasons he has fewer finals appereances. That and being matched up year in year out with the eventual champs earlier.

Cleveland was a 42-40 regular season team that year and a 6 seed.
Chicago was 50-32 with HCA and was a third seed.

Chicago built around Jordan getting lions share of shots and team D.

Next year he did face higher seeded Cavs squad but Mark price injured in game 1 and that may have somewhat evened things out.

I dont recall of any Bulls team that wasnt built around Jordan getting lions' share of shots and team D, up until he was 135 years old. But I'm starting to doubt my memory lately. I mean, I remember the Bulls being considered as constant overachievers. But with new evidence coming to light, it seems they were a super team expected to dominate with no ending, after all. I need to get checked for alzheimer's probably.

[Nazrmohamed]

You had to be there man. And hey. IDK what he does with Kevin Love and Kyrie against the Warriors, but I know what he would've done with the Bulls and that's dominate

The same Bulls team that went to the EFC game 7 without him? Why does barely anybody talk about this. Those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked.

They weren't "stacked" they had a legit system in place. That will win you games. LeBron has never bought into a system besides his own which is pound the ball then drive and kick, reason why his teams struggle when he's not playing. The Bulls also added Kerr, Kukoc, Longley when he retired. But the following year the Bulls were under .500 at All Star break. Maybe they overachieved a bit?

Also they didn't make it to the ECF. They lost to the 2nd round to the Knicks.

Could you imagine if Jordan had another teammate like Kyrie(or Wade) who could create his own shot late in games? My goodness.

Exactly, people now keep babbling that stacked team garbage to excuse what is obvious. And I no longer care or judge Lebron negatively for it but Jordan's Bulls were like Duncans Spurs. If you wanna say that's stacked then fine, but it was a way more holistically built team. You draft your core, you add pieces over the years, you play together, fight together and win.

Lebron just calls up a couple already existing allstars everywhere he goes and builds a contender. Its actually quite impressive from a different POV but I'm just gonna respect teams built by front offices over a 3-5 yr plan.

But even so let's be real Jordan and Pippen and a bunch of good but not elite players who they just kept in check. That's leadership. Not a stacked team

[Nazrmohamed]

Warriors in 15 weren't special. Phoenix would've destroyed them - Barkley in '93 playoffs was easily better than Curry in '15 playoffs.


I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, Blazers '92, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

In all fairness though, Jordan was unable to will vastly inferior teams with no business being in the finals to the finals on his own. MJ never won a playoff series without Pippen... And it's one of the reasons he has fewer finals apperances despite playing in a watered down expansion era.

If not for Pippen contributing 10 ppg, Jordan would have never gotten past the Cavs in the late 80s. Mike merely averaged 45.2 ppg, when the next FIVE Bulls, combined for 45 ppg, carrying him over that hump.
And thats one of the reasons he has fewer finals appereances. That and being matched up year in year out with the eventual champs earlier.

Watered down expansion era, he says. That's his excuse. What about this era? The era where half the league is trying to tank and is unapologetically about it. The same league where the average age of teams include about 5 players on a 14 man roster who went to college for one season and is in development mode. Fans today never factor that in. They say everyone is so much more talented while most teams have about 3 guys who can't play. Like actually learning how to play. Jordan played in a league full of players who spent 3 yrs in college being coached

[Nazrmohamed]

Lebron fans like bringing up Russell and his rings.
But like to forget the fact that he only played one side of the game great, he was not a offensive player. Was not even the best player in his time, but he just knew how to win.

MJ was great of both ends of the floor, put up the numbers, was the best player in the NBA and once he had his first All-Star he kept on winning.

It’s not even a debate that MJ is better than Lebron. Ofcourse always a very small number thinks that, it MJ had a much bigger impact on the game then Lebron.

MJ would avg 40 8 8 in this era

I'm on Jordsns side but just be careful.

WhachoutNa.

The entire offense ran through Bill Russell. No maybe he didn't score but he was essentially a mediocre scoring point guard at C, while being the best defender/ rebounder in the league. I would stop short of saying he didn't contribute on offense.

[Nazrmohamed]

You had to be there man. And hey. IDK what he does with Kevin Love and Kyrie against the Warriors, but I know what he would've done with the Bulls and that's dominate

The same Bulls team that went to the EFC game 7 without him? Why does barely anybody talk about this. Those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked.

Because it never happened.

Lmao. Knicks say hello

[Buzzard]

A different type of tough. Players were more physical due to the rules and the paint was not an area for the weak of heart.

[Ontario]

This is my first post in this thread and I'm not reading 35 pages previous so I apologize if the point I wanted to make has been hashed about already.

The era Jordan played in was very strong but it is a lie to say Jordan played against "tougher" competition, the reason it is a lie is because Jordan played by an entirely different set of rules, the refs clearly had a toe on MJ's side of the scales.

I cannot say this with certainty for MJ's pre-baseball stunt, I wasn't a bonafide NBA addict up until 92 or so but from the comeback onward for sure. I'd even throw in the 93 season.

The absolutely "more scoring" philosophy that defenders in the league are hampered by today against all perimeter players started in the 90's with just one guy. The NBA saw MJ as a money maker and after MJ when the audience began to falter the league purposely moved to try to create more MJ's.

[Karate Diop]

In all fairness though, Jordan was unable to will vastly inferior teams with no business being in the finals to the finals on his own. MJ never won a playoff series without Pippen... And it's one of the reasons he has fewer finals apperances despite playing in a watered down expansion era.

If not for Pippen contributing 10 ppg, Jordan would have never gotten past the Cavs in the late 80s. Mike merely averaged 45.2 ppg, when the next FIVE Bulls, combined for 45 ppg, carrying him over that hump.
And thats one of the reasons he has fewer finals appereances. That and being matched up year in year out with the eventual champs earlier.

Watered down expansion era, he says. That's his excuse. What about this era? The era where half the league is trying to tank and is unapologetically about it. The same league where the average age of teams include about 5 players on a 14 man roster who went to college for one season and is in development mode. Fans today never factor that in. They say everyone is so much more talented while most teams have about 3 guys who can't play. Like actually learning how to play. Jordan played in a league full of players who spent 3 yrs in college being coached

Ah good point... There was such a huge influx of international talent when Jordan was in the league, while nowadays the international market is untapped and largely devoid of talented players, back in the 90's scouts were more adept at identifying players abroad because of their mighty eye-tests, and that's why the 90's player pool was sO mUcH dEEpeR.

Players of the 90's were also sO mUcH mORe sKiLlEd just look at the shooting ability of your average player from the 90's there range extended out to about 15 feet, which is significantly further than your average player nowadays.



On a serious note pretending that teams in the 90's didn't blatantly tank is insulting. Media coverage is greater nowadays but tanking has been going for decades.

---

Edit: I'm fine saying Jordan is the GOAT or second best of all-time, but the stanning gets out of control. It's okay to admit that Jordan wasn't the best at everything and / or that some people faced greater challenges than him.

[The4thHorseman]

I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, Blazers '12, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

Those Utah teams get completely disrespected.

Malone would be viewed as a top 10 player ever had he won a ring. Stockton also. Jeff Hornacek was one heck of a role player. Efficient scorer with shooting.

They had back to back 60+ win seasons in (96-97, 97-98) beating the likes of Shaq Lakers which had 4 all stars, Hakeem's Rockets with Barkley and Drexler, Spurs with Robinson and Duncan,


Yes, as you written in the bold. LeBron got annihilated and MJ never lost. Don't care for the Warriors excuse, he had 11 years to catch up to Jordan and didn't do it.

There is no comparison anymore.

A fact about the competition for Jordan in the finals. 5 of his 6 championships came against the leagues MVP or runner up MVP.

no chance that either Malone or Stockton would be seen as top 10 players if they had won a ring.

The 97-98 Jazz were old and slow. Outside of Malone, they had very little offense. Their second leading scorer (Hornacek) avg. 11ppg while Stockton avg. 10ppg in that Finals. They scored a whopping 54pts in one game while a lot of team score that in less than 2 quarters.

Yes LA had 4 All-Stars but Kobe wasn't worthy of being one that year. If the Lakers had a competent coach instead of Del Harris, LA would have won that series. There's a reason why he never got another HC gig in the NBA after being fired from LA.

[rick32621]

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird played against tougher competition (each other).
During their time, Kevin McHale clothes lines Kurt Rambis and gets whistled for a common foul.

When Michael Jordan played, David Stern initiated the no hand checking rule. That's where you see Michael Jordan swatting peoples' hands away, taking his shot and glaring at the referees if he missed.

These guys would laugh at this "no touchee" basketball today.