The Defense thread 2024 (Final DPOY vote)

[Bornstellar]

You keep saying "the first half of the season" which is completely false. Quit making up nonsense

[G R E Y]

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[Bergmaniac]

I agree that he is no candidate for any award or defensive team because of minutes. I just say he is the best & most versatile defender in the leaque when he plays (+ he did the same before the injuries on big minutes)

No. 1 in defensive rating
No. 1 in defensive EPM
No. 1 in holding players below their average FG%
2nd in Blk % of real rotation players behind that freak in San Antonio
89% percentile in Steals
Havent checked this yet but last time i checked Orlando had by far the best defense in the leaque when he plays minutes.

All this while combining OG like wing defense & being a top 3-5 rim protector at legit 7 feet (He is not 6'10 like he is listed on many sites. That is his HS measurement. He was measured 6'10'75 barefoot in the season they measured all players barefoot). There just is no other player with that combination. Bam probably the closest.

The problem is we have no way of quantifying this comparatively. Isaac has a huge advantage over Gobert/Wemby/Bam in that his minutes (or lack thereof) allows him to give 100% effort without having to deal with fatigue or fouling issues. He also plays less against starters. Not trying to take anything away from Isaac (he’s an excellent defender) but how good could other high level defenders be if they only had to play 15mpg? I’d imagine their advanced defensive stats would get a sizeable bump. Isaac looks like the best defender when he’s on the floor but it’s such a unique situation that it’s tough to compare him to other high level defenders.

Orlando, as currently constructed, almost exclusively has plus defenders throughout their entire rotation. That's another factor likely pumping up the advanced defensive metrics for each of them

The three teammates Isaac has played most minutes together with this season are Cole Anthony, Mo Wagner and Joe Ingles. They are all negative defenders, especially Ingles, who is smart as hell but at this point of his career is one of the slowest players in the league and probably the slowest non-centre. The lineups where two of these three or all of them have played together without Isaac have been pretty terrible defensively but with him they have been dominant on that end.

[greg4012]

The problem is we have no way of quantifying this comparatively. Isaac has a huge advantage over Gobert/Wemby/Bam in that his minutes (or lack thereof) allows him to give 100% effort without having to deal with fatigue or fouling issues. He also plays less against starters. Not trying to take anything away from Isaac (he’s an excellent defender) but how good could other high level defenders be if they only had to play 15mpg? I’d imagine their advanced defensive stats would get a sizeable bump. Isaac looks like the best defender when he’s on the floor but it’s such a unique situation that it’s tough to compare him to other high level defenders.

Orlando, as currently constructed, almost exclusively has plus defenders throughout their entire rotation. That's another factor likely pumping up the advanced defensive metrics for each of them

The three teammates Isaac has played most minutes together with this season are Cole Anthony, Mo Wagner and Joe Ingles. They are all negative defenders, especially Ingles, who is smart as hell but at this point of his career is one of the slowest players in the league and probably the slowest non-centre. The lineups where two of these three or all of them have played together without Isaac have been pretty terrible defensively but with him they have been dominant on that end.

So Isaac has been primarily playing against bench players

[bklynspursfan]

You keep saying "the first half of the season" which is completely false. Quit making up nonsense

Seriously.. we're talking maybe 2 months at most, lot of it due to the experimenting with the lineups. And even then deer in headlights is crazy cause from his first game vs Luka he didn't look like a 19 y/o rookie..

[LeBronSpaghetti]

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This is ridiculous for so many reasons. A rookie, just 20 years old, playing under 30 mins per game, and none of those DPOYs are even close! Simply unbelievable.

[TheNG]

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This is ridiculous for so many reasons. A rookie, just 20 years old, playing under 30 mins per game, and none of those DPOYs are even close! Simply unbelievable.

Maybe because to be a great defender doesn't exactly mean to have a lot of steals and blocks? It is well known that some players who steal a lot tend to gamble on defense which is not always the correct play to do. Similarly, some players let their rival pass them in order to block him from behind - again, it might not be the correct move to do defensively.
Not saying there isn't a correlation between a lot of blocks and good defense (although I think there is not such a strong correlation between steals abd defensive ability), just that good defense does not necessarily mean lot of "stocks".

[Statlanta]

The fact that nobody even talks about Wembanyama's PnR defense is actually a testament to his lack of credibility as a All-Defense defender. If it was good it would be brought up like all the past DPOYs since 2016.

[cupcakesnake]

The fact that nobody even talks about Wembanyama's PnR defense is actually a testament to his lack of credibility as a All-Defense defender. If it was good it would be brought up like all the past DPOYs since 2016.

Is his PnR defense bad?

[cupcakesnake]

I don't think defensive numbers are as good at offensive numbers at telling us who is more impactful than who. Whenever we're using numbers to prop up our defensive player of the year, it seems like everyone uses different puzzle pieces or finds the specific niche stats that paint a player the best, and try to push that as evidence.

But I do think over the past 5-8 years we've been able to use more numbers to at least figure out who the elite defenders in the league are. I just came across a little tiktok video that tried to list the best 20 defenders using 10 different stats in 3 different categories:

Advanced Metrics - EPM, Win Shares, Defensive Rating
At Rim Defense - Box outs, rebounds, Opponent FG% within 6 feet, blocks
Open Court Defense - Steals, contested 3-pointers, loose balls recovered

While I didn't agree with the methodology to create a ranking (how do you weigh these metrics against each other), I was surprised to see their top 20 really was a strong list of all the guys we've talked about all year.
(the ranking doesn't account for games played).

1. Embiid
2. Bam
3. Mobley
4. AD
5. Wemby
6. Porzingis
7. Caruso
8. Gobert
9. iHart
10. OG
11. Kawhi
12. Giannis
13. Jrue
14. Jaylen Brown
15. Shai
16. Chet
17. Draymond
18. Paul George
19. Derrick White
20. Herb

Like that's not my personal order but this is a really good list of "vaguely the 20 best defenders in the NBA". I kind of slept on Jaylen Brown all year and he wouldn't be on my list due to my established opinion on him, but I've seen some footage and stats that indicate he's taken a serious as a help defender.

I was surprised not to see Tatum, JJJ and a couple other guys but man I just feel like we've come a long way talking about individual defense, even if it's still not on the level of offense.

[cupcakesnake]

Posted a final DPOY poll.
Hardest cuts for me were: Jarrett Allen, Jrue Holiday, Chet Holmgren

[brackdan70]

Has a player on a bottom 5 team ever won this award?

[The Master]

Has a player on a bottom 5 team ever won this award?

Mutombo played majority of his 2001's DPOTY season on bottom-5 team (Hawks) before he got traded to the Sixers, Spurs in '86 were 35-47 when Robertson won. And then Eaton and Mutombo with 41-41 records, that's the worst results for DPOTY award.

[CptCrunch]

DPOY is like MVP; your team kinda gotta win to showcase your impact. Historically, casual fans (and NBA media) have overrated fraudulent complete non-defenders like Curry within the context of game record, so there must be some balancing act between team record and perceived defensive impact. Unfortunately Wemby's team record is too damn bad.

Wemby may actually be insanely impactful on defense, but with the Spurs losing all their games, it is difficult to attribute wins to him.

[FreeBird23]

Gobert. Amazing season

[Chuck Everett]

I love Wemby but the best defender is not anchoring a 20-61 team, not his fault, but if you want individual awards, your defense/offense needs to help in the win column. Just my opinion.

[Bornstellar]

The only argument against Wemby at this point is "his team has a poor record" which is a pretty weak argument considering it's an individual award and he's being punished for playing with an absolutely abysmal roster.

You all know he's DPOY. That's why you have to rationalize he shouldn't receive the award due to team record and that's basically the only argument against him. Saying his impact doesn't translate to winning is just a lazy argument. Look at who he plays with, they're all turnstiles on defense and are horrible on offense too. Not only can they traffic cones on D but most of them are one dimensional players on O that can't create for themselves and can't shoot

He is being asked to anchor the team on both sides of the court as a rookie and he's doing a damn good job of it. He shouldn't be penalized for playing with a GLeague roster

[Chuck Everett]

The only argument against Wemby at this point is "his team has a poor record" which is a pretty weak argument considering it's an individual award and he's being punished for playing with an absolutely abysmal roster.

You all know he's DPOY. That's why you have to rationalize he shouldn't receive the award due to team record and that's basically the only argument against him. Saying his impact doesn't translate to winning is just a lazy argument. Look at who he plays with, they're all turnstiles on defense and are horrible on offense too. Not only can they traffic cones on D but most of them are one dimensional players on O that can't create for themselves and can't shoot

He is being asked to anchor the team on both sides of the court as a rookie and he's doing a damn good job of it. He shouldn't be penalized for playing with a GLeague roster

It's not though. The Wolves didn't become an elite defensive team until Gobert joined the roster. Sorry, just because his counting stats look nice, it doesn't mean he deserves to win DPOY this season.

The team added Wemby and has an identical record to the season before (one less win so far). That isn't deserving.

[Bornstellar]

The only argument against Wemby at this point is "his team has a poor record" which is a pretty weak argument considering it's an individual award and he's being punished for playing with an absolutely abysmal roster.

You all know he's DPOY. That's why you have to rationalize he shouldn't receive the award due to team record and that's basically the only argument against him. Saying his impact doesn't translate to winning is just a lazy argument. Look at who he plays with, they're all turnstiles on defense and are horrible on offense too. Not only can they traffic cones on D but most of them are one dimensional players on O that can't create for themselves and can't shoot

He is being asked to anchor the team on both sides of the court as a rookie and he's doing a damn good job of it. He shouldn't be penalized for playing with a GLeague roster

It's not though. The Wolves didn't become an elite defensive team until Gobert joined the roster. Sorry, just because his counting stats look nice, it doesn't mean he deserves to win DPOY this season.

The team added Wemby and has an identical record to the season before (one less win so far). That isn't deserving.

Gobert actually has good defenders around him including an elite defender in McDaniels and a bunch of vets also. Spurs are the youngest team in the NBA. Just strictly looking at record only is a lazy argument because you're failing to take into account a number of other factors. The Spurs at the end of this season are much better than the Spurs at the beginning. The conference as a whole also improved from last season. So again, just focusing on record is a lazy argument. Not to mention the Spurs the roster changes SA made at last seasons deadline, the weird decision to play Sochan at PG along with starting Collins next to him, injuries/minutes restrictions, etc

Imagine how much better Wemby would look surrounded by competent defenders. Or if he didn't have to shoulder the entire offense. Gobert doesn't even half to worry about one side of the floor. I wonder how much better Wemby's defensive metrics would be if he only had to focus on one side of the court like Rudy.

Do you really think the Spurs would be an elite defensive team with Gobert instead of Victor? No, they'd be worse and probably have like 10 wins on the season

[Chuck Everett]

The only argument against Wemby at this point is "his team has a poor record" which is a pretty weak argument considering it's an individual award and he's being punished for playing with an absolutely abysmal roster.

You all know he's DPOY. That's why you have to rationalize he shouldn't receive the award due to team record and that's basically the only argument against him. Saying his impact doesn't translate to winning is just a lazy argument. Look at who he plays with, they're all turnstiles on defense and are horrible on offense too. Not only can they traffic cones on D but most of them are one dimensional players on O that can't create for themselves and can't shoot

He is being asked to anchor the team on both sides of the court as a rookie and he's doing a damn good job of it. He shouldn't be penalized for playing with a GLeague roster

It's not though. The Wolves didn't become an elite defensive team until Gobert joined the roster. Sorry, just because his counting stats look nice, it doesn't mean he deserves to win DPOY this season.

The team added Wemby and has an identical record to the season before (one less win so far). That isn't deserving.

Gobert actually has good defenders around him including an elite defender in McDaniels and a bunch of vets also. Spurs are the youngest team in the NBA. Just strictly looking at record only is a lazy argument because you're failing to take into account a number of other factors. The Spurs at the end of this season are much better than the Spurs at the beginning. The conference as a whole also improved from last season. So again, just focusing on record is a lazy argument. Not to mention the Spurs the roster changes SA made at last seasons deadline, the weird decision to play Sochan at PG along with starting Collins next to him, injuries/minutes restrictions, etc

Imagine how much better Wemby would look surrounded by competent defenders. Or if he didn't have to shoulder the entire offense. Gobert doesn't even half to worry about one side of the floor. I wonder how much better Wemby's defensive metrics would be if he only had to focus on one side of the court like Rudy.

Do you really think the Spurs would be an elite defensive team with Gobert instead of Victor? No, they'd be worse and probably have like 10 wins on the season

I just don't agree with discounting the first two months of the season where Wemby looked like a deer in headlights as he got up to speed with the NBA game. If you look at the entire season, he wasn't the unquestioned best defender. It doesn't mean he didn't have a great season and won't win DPOY in the future. And if Gobert was on the Spurs, they would play a lot differently.

You also act like it's a surprise that Gobert's teams are always top 5 in the league in defensive efficiency. He's the common denominator. The fact that Wemby has to shoulder the offensive load should NOT be taken into account for this award. That's how you get situations like Lebron or Kobe on first team all-defense over Tony Allen or Alex Caruso.