Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[Jcool0]

If not for Pippen contributing 10 ppg, Jordan would have never gotten past the Cavs in the late 80s. Mike merely averaged 45.2 ppg, when the next FIVE Bulls, combined for 45 ppg, carrying him over that hump.
And thats one of the reasons he has fewer finals appereances. That and being matched up year in year out with the eventual champs earlier.

Watered down expansion era, he says. That's his excuse. What about this era? The era where half the league is trying to tank and is unapologetically about it. The same league where the average age of teams include about 5 players on a 14 man roster who went to college for one season and is in development mode. Fans today never factor that in. They say everyone is so much more talented while most teams have about 3 guys who can't play. Like actually learning how to play. Jordan played in a league full of players who spent 3 yrs in college being coached

Ah good point... There was such a huge influx of international talent when Jordan was in the league, while nowadays the international market is untapped and largely devoid of talented players, back in the 90's scouts were more adept at identifying players abroad because of their mighty eye-tests, and that's why the 90's player pool was sO mUcH dEEpeR.

Players of the 90's were also sO mUcH mORe sKiLlEd just look at the shooting ability of your average player from the 90's there range extended out to about 15 feet, which is significantly further than your average player nowadays.



On a serious note pretending that teams in the 90's didn't blatantly tank is insulting. Media coverage is greater nowadays but tanking has been going for decades.

---

Edit: I'm fine saying Jordan is the GOAT or second best of all-time, but the stanning gets out of control. It's okay to admit that Jordan wasn't the best at everything and / or that some people faced greater challenges than him.

One problem... He was great at everything. He was literally unstoppable on a basketball court.

[GYK]

Talent pool, tactical development, ect. It's a logical assumption that the average player is better now. You can argue we should judge players realtive to era, but then you can't argue for jordan vs russel. Not with fmvp's or rings.

so opinion. ok just say opinion.

Everything here is an opinion. Difference is i have a reason, and you have circular logic.

no you ignored the least opinionated base of judging teams and said opinion is favored without a reason for why SRS/Ortg isn't good. actually how dare I just expect some new reasoning but get "against there era" who doesn't play against there era? who time travels?

[ciueli]

One problem... He was great at everything. He was literally unstoppable on a basketball court.

He was unstoppable due to the rules system that was in place during the era in which he played. The defensive rules meant you had to play man-to-man defence or throw a hard double team (no soft doubles or zones, a severe limit on how much help defence teams could use) and it made players like him virtually impossible to guard.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-04-01-0104010375-story.html

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

[euroleague]

This is my first post in this thread and I'm not reading 35 pages previous so I apologize if the point I wanted to make has been hashed about already.

The era Jordan played in was very strong but it is a lie to say Jordan played against "tougher" competition, the reason it is a lie is because Jordan played by an entirely different set of rules, the refs clearly had a toe on MJ's side of the scales.

I cannot say this with certainty for MJ's pre-baseball stunt, I wasn't a bonafide NBA addict up until 92 or so but from the comeback onward for sure. I'd even throw in the 93 season.

The absolutely "more scoring" philosophy that defenders in the league are hampered by today against all perimeter players started in the 90's with just one guy. The NBA saw MJ as a money maker and after MJ when the audience began to falter the league purposely moved to try to create more MJ's.

If you discount his whole peak, and regard only his age 34 and after years, you are kind of bad at posting.

Against the Pistons, MJ’s teams got physically beat down hard. Far harder than anything done to LBJ’s

[trueballer7]

One problem... He was great at everything. He was literally unstoppable on a basketball court.

He was unstoppable due to the rules system that was in place during the era in which he played. The defensive rules meant you had to play man-to-man defence or throw a hard double team (no soft doubles or zones, a severe limit on how much help defence teams could use) and it made players like him virtually impossible to guard.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-04-01-0104010375-story.html

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

I dont remember anyone else as being impossible to guard, other than MJ.
Quote was from 2001 spring and Jordan had been retired for over 2 years. Talk was about real, college style zones. There is no actual zone in the NBA, players can't be in the paint unless there is an opponent there to defend against, only pseudo zones that leave more room for operation. Scoring has skyrocketed and a number of diet Jordans' that cant even play off the ball or shoot more than 40%, 5ft away from the basket, let alone have his complete skillset and athleticism, have been dominating the league since his retirement.

[Ontario]

This is my first post in this thread and I'm not reading 35 pages previous so I apologize if the point I wanted to make has been hashed about already.

The era Jordan played in was very strong but it is a lie to say Jordan played against "tougher" competition, the reason it is a lie is because Jordan played by an entirely different set of rules, the refs clearly had a toe on MJ's side of the scales.

I cannot say this with certainty for MJ's pre-baseball stunt, I wasn't a bonafide NBA addict up until 92 or so but from the comeback onward for sure. I'd even throw in the 93 season.

The absolutely "more scoring" philosophy that defenders in the league are hampered by today against all perimeter players started in the 90's with just one guy. The NBA saw MJ as a money maker and after MJ when the audience began to falter the league purposely moved to try to create more MJ's.

If you discount his whole peak, and regard only his age 34 and after years, you are kind of bad at posting.

Against the Pistons, MJ’s teams got physically beat down hard. Far harder than anything done to LBJ’s

I recognize that and that's why I am not including that part of his career in what I am saying. I'm talking about the last 4 titles not an insignificant chunk of the legend that is Michael Jordan. I'm not even calling those titles illegitimate I'm just saying the GOAT mythology of MJ needs to be taken with a grain of salt, he wasn't superman.

[Ontario]

This is my first post in this thread and I'm not reading 35 pages previous so I apologize if the point I wanted to make has been hashed about already.

The era Jordan played in was very strong but it is a lie to say Jordan played against "tougher" competition, the reason it is a lie is because Jordan played by an entirely different set of rules, the refs clearly had a toe on MJ's side of the scales.

I cannot say this with certainty for MJ's pre-baseball stunt, I wasn't a bonafide NBA addict up until 92 or so but from the comeback onward for sure. I'd even throw in the 93 season.

The absolutely "more scoring" philosophy that defenders in the league are hampered by today against all perimeter players started in the 90's with just one guy. The NBA saw MJ as a money maker and after MJ when the audience began to falter the league purposely moved to try to create more MJ's.

If you discount his whole peak, and regard only his age 34 and after years, you are kind of bad at posting.

Against the Pistons, MJ’s teams got physically beat down hard. Far harder than anything done to LBJ’s

I recognize that and that's why I am not including that part of his career in what I am saying. I'm talking about the last 4 titles not an insignificant chunk of the legend that is Michael Jordan. I'm not even calling those titles illegitimate I'm just saying the GOAT mythology of MJ needs to be taken with a grain of salt, he wasn't superman.

He was 29 in 1993 by the way.

[euroleague]

If you discount his whole peak, and regard only his age 34 and after years, you are kind of bad at posting.

Against the Pistons, MJ’s teams got physically beat down hard. Far harder than anything done to LBJ’s

I recognize that and that's why I am not including that part of his career in what I am saying. I'm talking about the last 4 titles not an insignificant chunk of the legend that is Michael Jordan. I'm not even calling those titles illegitimate I'm just saying the GOAT mythology of MJ needs to be taken with a grain of salt, he wasn't superman.

He was 29 in 1993 by the way.

In 93 he was good, but not mvp. He was actually the underdog in the finals that year, so really no business saying he didn’t have legitimate competition.

He had 8 FTA/g, on 33 FGA/g. He averaged 41/9/6. So the finals weren’t favoring him, despite his team having arguably less talent.

I think his impact is overrated, but not nearly to the degree of lbj.

[Repeat 3-peat]

I'd rank their Finals matchups:
Warriors '17, Spurs '14, Warriors '18, Suns '93, Spurs '13, Sonics '96, Spurs '07, Warriors '16, Jazz 98, OKC '12, Lakers '91, Jazz '97, Blazers '12, Warriors '15, Mavericks '11

In all fairness though, those top 3 teams annihilated LBJ's team and MJ never lost.

Those Utah teams get completely disrespected.

Malone would be viewed as a top 10 player ever had he won a ring. Stockton also. Jeff Hornacek was one heck of a role player. Efficient scorer with shooting.

They had back to back 60+ win seasons in (96-97, 97-98) beating the likes of Shaq Lakers which had 4 all stars, Hakeem's Rockets with Barkley and Drexler, Spurs with Robinson and Duncan,


Yes, as you written in the bold. LeBron got annihilated and MJ never lost. Don't care for the Warriors excuse, he had 11 years to catch up to Jordan and didn't do it.

There is no comparison anymore.

A fact about the competition for Jordan in the finals. 5 of his 6 championships came against the leagues MVP or runner up MVP.

no chance that either Malone or Stockton would be seen as top 10 players if they had won a ring.

The 97-98 Jazz were old and slow. Outside of Malone, they had very little offense. Their second leading scorer (Hornacek) avg. 11ppg while Stockton avg. 10ppg in that Finals. They scored a whopping 54pts in one game while a lot of team score that in less than 2 quarters.

Yes LA had 4 All-Stars but Kobe wasn't worthy of being one that year. If the Lakers had a competent coach instead of Del Harris, LA would have won that series. There's a reason why he never got another HC gig in the NBA after being fired from LA.

You do know that Malone and Stockton are/were(Stockton now #3 behind Steph) considered the second greatest players at their respected positions and are already viewed as top 15-20 players off all time? imagine if they had beat Michael Jordan?. Malone has a career average of 25 and 10 and second all time in scoring. Stockton who is the all time assist leader by a good margin, was a tough defender and was also a good shooter from three. FWIW Stockton would have been unbelievable in today's game.

The 97-98 Jazz had the best record in the league(tied with Chicago but they swept the Bulls in the RS) and had the #1 offense in the league. Yes they had a 54 point game but the rest of the series was close in scoring. They had an awful shooting night and the Bulls didn't let up, should credit the Bulls here. They played amazing attacking defense creating I believe 26 turnovers. As we see in sports, most teams with a big lead let up and opposing teams come back to make the score look better but not the Bulls.

The Lakers were a 61 win team in a tough Western conference Kobe was a fantastic 6th man.

[ciueli]

I dont remember anyone else as being impossible to guard, other than MJ.
Quote was from 2001 spring and Jordan had been retired for over 2 years. Talk was about real, college style zones. There is no actual zone in the NBA, players can't be in the paint unless there is an opponent there to defend against, only pseudo zones that leave more room for operation. Scoring has skyrocketed and a number of diet Jordans' that cant even play off the ball or shoot more than 40%, 5ft away from the basket, let alone have his complete skillset and athleticism, have been dominating the league since his retirement.

Scoring has skyrocketed because all the best players are shooting threes. Michael Jordan was a horrible 3 point shooter for most of his career, the only seasons he shot well were with a shorter 3 point line (which they later changed back after Jordan retired the second time).

As for the NBA not having real zones, you should read this:

https://thejrreport.com/2017/06/09/its-a-different-game-how-zone-defense-changed-everything-in-the-nba/

Before the rule change, defending players were required to guard their respective men at all times. Granted, if a player who was not a proficient long-distance shooter encroached upon the perimeter, the defender did not have to hug them completely, but they were not allowed to drop below foul-line extended. This made stopping star players increasingly difficult.

The only way to attempt to neutralize a star player in the 90’s was to launch hard double-teams that placed the remainder of the defense in precarious situations which is certainly not a reliable tactic to consistently defend professional players.

There is overwhelming evidence pointing towards the 1990’s being a significantly easier era in which to battle as a superstar player because zone defenses were not allowed.

[Galou]

Soooooooo uhhhhh..... A lot of rhetoric but no visuals?

[Galou]

Watch on YouTube

[trueballer7]

I dont remember anyone else as being impossible to guard, other than MJ.
Quote was from 2001 spring and Jordan had been retired for over 2 years. Talk was about real, college style zones. There is no actual zone in the NBA, players can't be in the paint unless there is an opponent there to defend against, only pseudo zones that leave more room for operation. Scoring has skyrocketed and a number of diet Jordans' that cant even play off the ball or shoot more than 40%, 5ft away from the basket, let alone have his complete skillset and athleticism, have been dominating the league since his retirement.

Scoring has skyrocketed because all the best players are shooting threes. Michael Jordan was a horrible 3 point shooter for most of his career, the only seasons he shot well were with a shorter 3 point line (which they later changed back after Jordan retired the second time).

As for the NBA not having real zones, you should read this:

https://thejrreport.com/2017/06/09/its-a-different-game-how-zone-defense-changed-everything-in-the-nba/

Before the rule change, defending players were required to guard their respective men at all times. Granted, if a player who was not a proficient long-distance shooter encroached upon the perimeter, the defender did not have to hug them completely, but they were not allowed to drop below foul-line extended. This made stopping star players increasingly difficult.

The only way to attempt to neutralize a star player in the 90’s was to launch hard double-teams that placed the remainder of the defense in precarious situations which is certainly not a reliable tactic to consistently defend professional players.

There is overwhelming evidence pointing towards the 1990’s being a significantly easier era in which to battle as a superstar player because zone defenses were not allowed.

They must have shortened that 3pt because it was too easy to score back then.

[freethedevil]

so opinion. ok just say opinion.

Everything here is an opinion. Difference is i have a reason, and you have circular logic.

no you ignored the least opinionated base of judging teams and said opinion is favored without a reason for why SRS/Ortg isn't good.

I didn't ignore it, I addressed it. You ignoring my response isn't my problem.

[GYK]

Everything here is an opinion. Difference is i have a reason, and you have circular logic.

no you ignored the least opinionated base of judging teams and said opinion is favored without a reason for why SRS/Ortg isn't good.

I didn't ignore it, I addressed it. You ignoring my response isn't my problem.

you'll be ok.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Watch on YouTube

Shut it down folks. Debate over.

[mithrandir17]

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird played against tougher competition (each other).
During their time, Kevin McHale clothes lines Kurt Rambis and gets whistled for a common foul.

When Michael Jordan played, David Stern initiated the no hand checking rule. That's where you see Michael Jordan swatting peoples' hands away, taking his shot and glaring at the referees if he missed.

These guys would laugh at this "no touchee" basketball today.

The hand-checking rule was implemented during the 94-95 season. Didn't MJ already win a three-peat before that?

https://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html
1994-95
• Shortened the three-point line (22 feet in the corners extending to 23 feet, nine inches at the top of the key) to a uniform 22 feet around the basket.
• Awarded three foul shots for any player fouled while attempting a three-point field goal.
• Any player who leaves the bench during a fight automatically suspended for a minimum of one game and fined a maximum of $20,000; in addition to losing 1/82nd of his salary for each game, he is suspended.
• Any player who commits two flagrant fouls in one game will be ejected.
• Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.
• Technical foul fines increased to $500 each. Formerly, the fines were $100 for the first technical and $150 for the second.
• “Clear path” rule changed to include contact in the backcourt. If a defender, grabs a player when the player has a clear path to the basket on a breakaway, two foul shots will be awarded.
• The second or more of back-to-back timeouts when the ball is not inbounded will be limited to 45 seconds.

[LKN]

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird played against tougher competition (each other).
During their time, Kevin McHale clothes lines Kurt Rambis and gets whistled for a common foul.

When Michael Jordan played, David Stern initiated the no hand checking rule. That's where you see Michael Jordan swatting peoples' hands away, taking his shot and glaring at the referees if he missed.

These guys would laugh at this "no touchee" basketball today.

The hand-checking rule was implemented during the 94-95 season. Didn't MJ already win a three-peat before that?

https://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html
1994-95
• Shortened the three-point line (22 feet in the corners extending to 23 feet, nine inches at the top of the key) to a uniform 22 feet around the basket.
• Awarded three foul shots for any player fouled while attempting a three-point field goal.
• Any player who leaves the bench during a fight automatically suspended for a minimum of one game and fined a maximum of $20,000; in addition to losing 1/82nd of his salary for each game, he is suspended.
• Any player who commits two flagrant fouls in one game will be ejected.
• Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.
• Technical foul fines increased to $500 each. Formerly, the fines were $100 for the first technical and $150 for the second.
• “Clear path” rule changed to include contact in the backcourt. If a defender, grabs a player when the player has a clear path to the basket on a breakaway, two foul shots will be awarded.
• The second or more of back-to-back timeouts when the ball is not inbounded will be limited to 45 seconds.

Considering that the late 90s and early 00s was one of the lowest scoring periods in the NBA it clearly didn't do much.

[LakerLegend]

Posted by Shaq himself:

[reapaman]

Posted by Shaq himself:

As a long time Jazz fan, that 98 team was not good. Stockton and Hornacek were clearly shells of themselves and looked extremely more sluggish as the playoffs went on. Malone was still good, but he was definitely not in his prime and he tailed off a little too by the time the Jazz got to the Finals. Our Centers were garbage. The bench was garbage. Russell was a solid defender, but didn't help offensively much.

Shaq should be ashamed to even admit they got swept by that team.